PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
people teaching you how to bhop i personally found useless, what you really have to do is watch someone else do it until you can do a similar movement then work your own tweaks in, such as how wide to make each jump, how to turn it into a wallhop etc.
Idle on #ensl on quakenet and when you see someone asking for a pcw ask them to tell you when it starts, go spec, and watch aliens.
Or join #ensl on quakenet and ask one of them to show you, im sure someone will.
I vote for the remove of the bunnyhopp. Maybe the skulks can keep it. But the marines and the other aliens shouldn't. Gorges and marines looks like they from an idiot cartoon when they bunnyhopping...
There are two kind of people who play NS. The first type, is pubbers, who wanna get some fun with the game and play before they go to study/some time on weekends/some afternoons with some pals. They don't play usually, maybe every 2 or 3 days. The second type, is pros (like me), who wanna go competitive NS, playing all day long, 7 days a week, to reach more aim/tecniques and CPL stuff. Pubbers don't care about bhopping because they don't know how to do it or they don't wanna spend extra time in learning it. Pros need bhop as a way to walk instead of straight running, it's impossible to kill a marine without bhop/wallhop when playing competitive against good people, because without bhop, marine weapons and the aim way, is just freaking unbalanced compared to aliens.
It's too easy to kill a straight running skulk or a wiggle walking one with the actual weapons/aim way.
If I remember correctly, Flayra and Max stated in an interview that they were going to keep some form of skill-based movement in NS2.
The fact that bunnyhopping was originally an engine glitch has nothing to do with the fact that its now a key point of balance in the game. This isn't the first time that some sort of exploit became a key game feature, and neither will it be the last. Personally, if it weren't for bunnyhopping, I would'v quit NS a long time ago because of the amount of time it takes to start a scrim.
<!--quoteo(post=1653550:date=Oct 2 2007, 12:49 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Golden @ Oct 2 2007, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, if it weren't for bunnyhopping, I would'v quit NS a long time ago because of the amount of time it takes to start a scrim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> HAHAHAHA.
Lets not forget something to keep us occupied in the mandatory 30 min wait before every match/scrim.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
edited October 2007
lol hisao ¬_¬
it isn't ridiculous IMHO it fully suits a skulk, its like erm.. ZOOM can't explain yeah?
ill tell you tomorrow in piss easy web authoring class <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Anyone else getting a feeling of that BJ will be the major thing determining if the game will be good or not? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I totaly agree what's being said about competitive gaming, if you don't bunny as a skullk against a marine who knows how to play, you're dead alien-meat.
(or you just camp in dark corners, but a game that is based on camping sounds kinda boring)
If bunnyhop is taken out, it doesn't ruin the alien gameplay. I agree, I like bhop but its not the determining factor. It is made to be because everyone uses it, and without it you can't be as aggressive as normal but skulks aren't meant to be aggressive. Again, devs said earlier in this thread, there will be something else in place that will make us happy. Lets just hope it will.
<!--quoteo(post=1654009:date=Oct 4 2007, 10:15 AM:name=beta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(beta @ Oct 4 2007, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If bunnyhop is taken out, it doesn't ruin the alien gameplay. I agree, I like bhop but its not the determining factor. It is made to be because everyone uses it, and without it you can't be as aggressive as normal but skulks aren't meant to be aggressive. Again, devs said earlier in this thread, there will be something else in place that will make us happy. Lets just hope it will.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can't be aggressive, you can always be bored.
<!--quoteo(post=1654047:date=Oct 4 2007, 01:07 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Oct 4 2007, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't be aggressive, you can always be bored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I mean, yeah you're right. Of course you will have to be an aggressive skulk. Bhop isn't the only way though. We have leap (yes I know its a 2nd hive ability, but its there) and who knows, the devs may have other abilities coming to make up for it.We just have to wait and see. All I'm saying is that losing bhop isn't the end of NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1653914:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:50 PM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Oct 3 2007, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you don't bunny as a skullk against a marine who knows how to play, you're dead alien-meat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you bunnyhop at a good marine you'll get 10 bulleted.
<!--quoteo(post=1652122:date=Sep 25 2007, 06:21 PM:name=Ihmemies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ihmemies @ Sep 25 2007, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1652122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are better ways to require skill from player <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this one. I see it all over the place, however, no one ever seems to quantify that statement with an example. Other ways, IE, shooting straight? Because I would MUCH prefer NS marine game play to be a clone of CS than the way it currently is [/sarcasm]...
Bunnyhopping is a movement glitch that is by default still imbedded in HL2 just as much as it was in HL1. Removing it, depending on the method, is somewhere between impossible, and game destroying. The only elegant fix I've seen so far is to put a slight delay between landing and allowing the player to jump again that forces ground deceleration on the player. IMO, that's a change that would work fine for marines, but is not at all a tolerable solution for skulks/other alien classes. The best way to remove bunny hopping for aliens is to basically do what was done with the lerk. Give it some other technique that is superior.
<!--quoteo(post=1654147:date=Oct 4 2007, 09:28 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Oct 4 2007, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you bunnyhop at a good marine you'll get 10 bulleted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we don't play alien.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but Fortress Forever has a really simple bhop script built in. Simply hold jump mid air, release once you have hit ground and rejumped, and then hold again. Repeat and rinse. You still need to do the strafing and mouse movements though, but it makes timing a lot easier and you don't need a jump script or mousewheel for it.
And yeah, against a good marine you'd better off climbing a wall and dropping down reclimbing etc to close the gap, rather than just tryin to bhop into his face.
Also i love the speed that you can get on a bhop after a leap, it's almost the same as after a conc grenade in tfc, so plz don't remove bhop!
<!--quoteo(post=1653914:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:50 PM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Oct 3 2007, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you don't bunny as a skullk against a marine who knows how to play, you're dead alien-meat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In high end gameplay Bhopping isn't really used the same way it is in pubs where if I rush a guy at 600 units per second I know he'll miss most of his shots just because he's a poor shot. Generally against a marine who knows how to shoot, even bhopping haul ass won't do the trick, so most alien tactics shift from bhopping head on, to more swift execution methods like corner ambushes and pincer ambushes.
It's not that bhopping is a magic bullet for taking on high skill marines, they will still waste you if you bhop, it's just that if you don't know how to bhop, chances are you haven't played the game at a high enough level to know how to take on high skill marines without bhop anyways. The alien game is INCREDIBLY deep and complicated, bhopping is just a small segment of the MANY advantages and tricks alien players learn to use to dig into crack addict twitch fire marines.
Simply put, it's a basic knowledge and skill issue. If you are GOOD at NS, it means you KNOW how the game works, and part of how the game works is how air physics work. Theoretically speaking a high end player could go without the act of acctually exceeding max ground speed with bhopping completely and still be better than I am, as a player who is heavily dependent on my ability to bhop. What would really be the stopping point is if the player did not know how to use air control, because air control is fundamental techniques that makes ambushing from anywhere but a ground corner effective. The actual advantage of exceeding max speed by the stereotypical bouncing is of negligible use, the real guts of what a player has mastered is in the simple knowledge of how to guide themselfs in the air perfectly, and it's something that any player who does not know will not be able to claim to be a "good alien" because fundamentally they are not good, they have not trained them selfs in the primary knowledge of how the game works, specifically, how the physics works.
I go 1-1 whenever I bhop marines, and I have absolutely no patience. Killing off a marine on his way to the alien ambush increases alien's chances of holding that spot.
<!--quoteo(post=1654369:date=Oct 6 2007, 07:09 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Oct 6 2007, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I go 1-1 whenever I bhop marines, and I have absolutely no patience. Killing off a marine on his way to the alien ambush increases alien's chances of holding that spot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, and dying decreases the alien's chance of holding that spot. Of course, this isn't to say that not pressuring the marines and taking out as many as possible as often as possible is a good idea. Don't sit around and wait 2 minutes for 5 marines to gather their gear and mount an organized attack on the central hallways, try to do some damage in the mean time. But fundamentally, the more force you can compile at one point as a marine approaches the more likely marine losses are greater than alien losses.
Skulks move around much faster than marines do, so if I suicide on marines by station access, I can come to PSJ by the time the remaining 2 marines get there. I'll also have + resources.
<!--quoteo(post=1648055:date=Sep 8 2007, 02:48 AM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Sep 8 2007, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thought struck me when listening to one of the podcasts,
I remember hearing puzl or someone say that you were possibly changing bhop to possibly a different form of movement to decrease the fps dependency,
Making bhop not so fps dependent would be great, but please don't take out bhop for another form of movement.
It balances the game and it suits the aliens imho,
so yeah, keep it in!
( PS: I couldn't decide if this was suited for the Ideas Forum or the General Forum as it isn't really an idea :S )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm i think you can't play the standard gameplay right? Bunnyhop is a movement glitch and using it, is just a cheat. I will never buy a game with that glitch, except its a singleplayer game. Cmon do you realy can't play fair? So go take cheat tools, hack tools and play with it, have fun with that kiddie stuff. I hate bunnyhopper, there is a reason why the most games use a stamina bar or stop you at jumping. The aliens, e.g. the skulks are fast, can climb and thats enough. Bunnyhoping is to much... have a nice day.
regards gehirntot
P.S. im not english, so my english is a bit rusty.
<!--quoteo(post=1655523:date=Oct 12 2007, 07:55 AM:name=Gehirntot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gehirntot @ Oct 12 2007, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1655523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhop is a movement glitch and using it, is just a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not a glitch, its part of the code and it can be removed by editing 2 lines of code. Its one of those bugs that hit the devs on the head and made them think of how awesome the idea is. Its a part of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate bunnyhopper, there is a reason why the most games use a stamina bar or stop you at jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stamina bars utterly suck and ruin games for me. Why do you hate bunnyhopping, because it doesn't look realistic? Does the idea of a bug resembling a dog with sickles for hands sound realistic to you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens, e.g. the skulks are fast, can climb and thats enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not nearly fast enough.
Someone tried to show my how to bhop but could never get the hang of it. So I play without it and I get along OK. My performance is pretty average, but for not knowing all the tricks and bhopping and being able to fire off a volley of pistol shots, as fast as the machine gun, from clear across the hanger with my alien nose just barely showing... I do OK. ...but I can still get to and kill those guys. I do zig and zag and use the walls and ceilings. I find Silence and leap work best for me as a skulk.
I find it amazing how some skulks are flying - they come in the hangar, loop around the room - killing a couple of marines, and leave without ever touching the floor, wall, or ceiling.
The important thing is to have fun - and even those frustrating things I mentioned above, I still have a blast.
...and guys, you know that even without bunny hop, this is <b><i><u>the</b></i></u> most unique and balanced game ever. It may not be everybody's "cup of tea", but it is still the best game out there, IMHO, bar none.
A FPS with a taste of RTS (resource gathering, protecting your builds, and commander gets over-head RTS style view of map <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ), with the drama of not sure if Skulk, Fade, Onos - or a squad of marines, as opposed to the individual marine your little skulk be-hind was expecting, is waiting around next corner. ...wrapped in 2 completely different game playing styles - the individualism of the alien (don't have to wait for commander to drop RT), vs Marine's dependence on their commander and being near their technology.
NS2 will be well worth the wait and I will be purchasing one - well, more than one as I have more than one computer and play with people who come over to the house.
Look, there is no reason at all to think that removing bunny hopping will unbalance the game. Yes removing bunnyhoping from NS1 would unbalance NS1. because the hp/damage values are based on being able to use that. But NS2 is a whole diffrent ball game, if bunny hopping was removed all they would need to do is allow the alliens to move just a little faster, then your moving just as fast as you would have been bunny hopping.
In the end it comes down to what looks best, and what feels like the kind of game they want to build. Personaly I think that marines going bouncy, bouncy doesnt look/feel like a scifi thriller.
Comments
Idle on #ensl on quakenet and when you see someone asking for a pcw ask them to tell you when it starts, go spec, and watch aliens.
Or join #ensl on quakenet and ask one of them to show you, im sure someone will.
Pubbers don't care about bhopping because they don't know how to do it or they don't wanna spend extra time in learning it.
Pros need bhop as a way to walk instead of straight running, it's impossible to kill a marine without bhop/wallhop when playing competitive against good people, because without bhop, marine weapons and the aim way, is just freaking unbalanced compared to aliens.
It's too easy to kill a straight running skulk or a wiggle walking one with the actual weapons/aim way.
Please, think in pros. =DDDDDDD
The fact that bunnyhopping was originally an engine glitch has nothing to do with the fact that its now a key point of balance in the game. This isn't the first time that some sort of exploit became a key game feature, and neither will it be the last. Personally, if it weren't for bunnyhopping, I would'v quit NS a long time ago because of the amount of time it takes to start a scrim.
HAHAHAHA.
Lets not forget something to keep us occupied in the mandatory 30 min wait before every match/scrim.
P.S Bhop is win
P.P.S Prefix is bad, yeah? ughh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
it isn't ridiculous IMHO it fully suits a skulk, its like erm.. ZOOM
can't explain yeah?
ill tell you tomorrow in piss easy web authoring class <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
ps, you sir are a hoe.
I totaly agree what's being said about competitive gaming, if you don't bunny as a skullk against a marine who knows how to play, you're dead alien-meat.
(or you just camp in dark corners, but a game that is based on camping sounds kinda boring)
If you can't be aggressive, you can always be bored.
Well, I mean, yeah you're right. Of course you will have to be an aggressive skulk. Bhop isn't the only way though. We have leap (yes I know its a 2nd hive ability, but its there) and who knows, the devs may have other abilities coming to make up for it.We just have to wait and see. All I'm saying is that losing bhop isn't the end of NS.
if you bunnyhop at a good marine you'll get 10 bulleted.
I like this one. I see it all over the place, however, no one ever seems to quantify that statement with an example. Other ways, IE, shooting straight? Because I would MUCH prefer NS marine game play to be a clone of CS than the way it currently is [/sarcasm]...
Bunnyhopping is a movement glitch that is by default still imbedded in HL2 just as much as it was in HL1. Removing it, depending on the method, is somewhere between impossible, and game destroying. The only elegant fix I've seen so far is to put a slight delay between landing and allowing the player to jump again that forces ground deceleration on the player. IMO, that's a change that would work fine for marines, but is not at all a tolerable solution for skulks/other alien classes. The best way to remove bunny hopping for aliens is to basically do what was done with the lerk. Give it some other technique that is superior.
Which is why we don't play alien.
And yeah, against a good marine you'd better off climbing a wall and dropping down reclimbing etc to close the gap, rather than just tryin to bhop into his face.
Also i love the speed that you can get on a bhop after a leap, it's almost the same as after a conc grenade in tfc, so plz don't remove bhop!
In high end gameplay Bhopping isn't really used the same way it is in pubs where if I rush a guy at 600 units per second I know he'll miss most of his shots just because he's a poor shot. Generally against a marine who knows how to shoot, even bhopping haul ass won't do the trick, so most alien tactics shift from bhopping head on, to more swift execution methods like corner ambushes and pincer ambushes.
It's not that bhopping is a magic bullet for taking on high skill marines, they will still waste you if you bhop, it's just that if you don't know how to bhop, chances are you haven't played the game at a high enough level to know how to take on high skill marines without bhop anyways. The alien game is INCREDIBLY deep and complicated, bhopping is just a small segment of the MANY advantages and tricks alien players learn to use to dig into crack addict twitch fire marines.
Simply put, it's a basic knowledge and skill issue. If you are GOOD at NS, it means you KNOW how the game works, and part of how the game works is how air physics work. Theoretically speaking a high end player could go without the act of acctually exceeding max ground speed with bhopping completely and still be better than I am, as a player who is heavily dependent on my ability to bhop. What would really be the stopping point is if the player did not know how to use air control, because air control is fundamental techniques that makes ambushing from anywhere but a ground corner effective. The actual advantage of exceeding max speed by the stereotypical bouncing is of negligible use, the real guts of what a player has mastered is in the simple knowledge of how to guide themselfs in the air perfectly, and it's something that any player who does not know will not be able to claim to be a "good alien" because fundamentally they are not good, they have not trained them selfs in the primary knowledge of how the game works, specifically, how the physics works.
Ya, and dying decreases the alien's chance of holding that spot. Of course, this isn't to say that not pressuring the marines and taking out as many as possible as often as possible is a good idea. Don't sit around and wait 2 minutes for 5 marines to gather their gear and mount an organized attack on the central hallways, try to do some damage in the mean time. But fundamentally, the more force you can compile at one point as a marine approaches the more likely marine losses are greater than alien losses.
I remember hearing puzl or someone say that you were possibly changing bhop to possibly a different form of movement to decrease the fps dependency,
Making bhop not so fps dependent would be great, but please don't take out bhop for another form of movement.
It balances the game and it suits the aliens imho,
so yeah,
keep it in!
( PS: I couldn't decide if this was suited for the Ideas Forum or the General Forum as it isn't really an idea :S )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm i think you can't play the standard gameplay right?
Bunnyhop is a movement glitch and using it, is just a cheat.
I will never buy a game with that glitch, except its a singleplayer game.
Cmon do you realy can't play fair?
So go take cheat tools, hack tools and play with it, have fun with that kiddie stuff.
I hate bunnyhopper, there is a reason why the most games use a stamina bar or stop you at jumping.
The aliens, e.g. the skulks are fast, can climb and thats enough.
Bunnyhoping is to much...
have a nice day.
regards
gehirntot
P.S. im not english, so my english is a bit rusty.
Its not a glitch, its part of the code and it can be removed by editing 2 lines of code. Its one of those bugs that hit the devs on the head and made them think of how awesome the idea is. Its a part of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate bunnyhopper, there is a reason why the most games use a stamina bar or stop you at jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stamina bars utterly suck and ruin games for me. Why do you hate bunnyhopping, because it doesn't look realistic? Does the idea of a bug resembling a dog with sickles for hands sound realistic to you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens, e.g. the skulks are fast, can climb and thats enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not nearly fast enough.
So I play without it and I get along OK.
My performance is pretty average, but for not knowing all the tricks and bhopping and being able to fire off a volley of pistol shots, as fast as the machine gun, from clear across the hanger with my alien nose just barely showing... I do OK.
...but I can still get to and kill those guys.
I do zig and zag and use the walls and ceilings.
I find Silence and leap work best for me as a skulk.
I find it amazing how some skulks are flying - they come in the hangar, loop around the room - killing a couple of marines, and leave without ever touching the floor, wall, or ceiling.
The important thing is to have fun - and even those frustrating things I mentioned above, I still have a blast.
...and guys, you know that even without bunny hop, this is <b><i><u>the</b></i></u> most unique and balanced game ever. It may not be everybody's "cup of tea", but it is still the best game out there, IMHO, bar none.
A FPS with a taste of RTS (resource gathering, protecting your builds, and commander gets over-head RTS style view of map <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ), with the drama of not sure if Skulk, Fade, Onos - or a squad of marines, as opposed to the individual marine your little skulk be-hind was expecting, is waiting around next corner.
...wrapped in 2 completely different game playing styles - the individualism of the alien (don't have to wait for commander to drop RT), vs Marine's dependence on their commander and being near their technology.
NS2 will be well worth the wait and I will be purchasing one - well, more than one as I have more than one computer and play with people who come over to the house.
In the end it comes down to what looks best, and what feels like the kind of game they want to build. Personaly I think that marines going bouncy, bouncy doesnt look/feel like a scifi thriller.