I've never been able to beat the computers at chess. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
It's true, we don't have and won't have real AI for quite some time. All we have is ever more elaborate scripting. The more elaberate and well designed the scripting, the better the illusion that you are fighting an intelligent opponent.
<!--quoteo(post=1638064:date=Jul 9 2007, 09:00 AM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jul 9 2007, 09:00 AM) [snapback]1638064[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I honestly never saw anything like that.
I have sniped a good number of people, and all it ever changes is that they go into "oh crap, some one is trying to kill us" mode.
Oh well, I also had a tendency to promptly run in and blow things up, but that is just because I am silly like that. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i swear, i came around a corner and was a good 100 yards away at the bandit camp right before the first lab (x16 i think its called) and i shot the guy that nobody was looking at, the other guy turns around and shoots the 2nd guy in the face with his sawn off shotgun and he falls down into a pit. I literally yelled 'woah ######!' and started laughing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I know he was not shooting at me because it was in a completely different direction from me.
Chess: Chess is way more complicated than TTT, but it is still a rather simple game with a number of limited useful moves (although the total number of possible moves is infinite) so by having a huge library of games available and brute-forcing the chess AI can beat nearly any opponent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting fact I learned in Algorithms & Complexity at uni last semester:
The faster you make your move in computerised chess, the less likley the AIs move will be the best possible move as it has yet to calculate it.
<!--quoteo(post=1638258:date=Jul 10 2007, 08:46 PM:name=Rellix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rellix @ Jul 10 2007, 08:46 PM) [snapback]1638258[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Interesting fact I learned in Algorithms & Complexity at uni last semester:
The faster you make your move in computerised chess, the less likley the AIs move will be the best possible move as it has yet to calculate it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only because a chess AI either plays against a real game clock (deep blue vs grandmasters) or because it plays against an internal clock. There always a timelimit for the AI.
Edit: So the only way to beat a chess AI without exploiting its programming, would be with the help of intuition. If you can feel the correct move before the AI can find it through brute-forcing you will win in a game thats clocked.
maybe i'm alone here- but i don't notice great vs. normal AI; i only notice awful vs normal AI.
example 1, Hitman
a stylish, stealthy assasin game. guaranteed at some point before the level ends i'll royally f*** up and every bad guy comes hunting for me. it should be the end of the player but you just point your crosshair towards that turn in the corridor and mow them down 1 by 1 as they file in. poor AI.
example 2, Half-Life 1
ground-breaking awesomeness all the reviewers said- one of the reasons being the grunts' AI. they'd work together, flank, cover, etc. what did i notice? the room ahead of me is full of military chatter, so i just run and gib everything that moves.
it kills the replayability but for singleplayer games i'd rather play heavily scripted games then games that rely on AI. for the latter, developers rave about each bit of combat being different every time you replay it but meh, so what if the grunt moves clockwise around the crate instead of counter-clockwise- i've still got a machinegun that's going to work exactly the same as it did before.
for replayability no AI wil ever compare to multiplayer games.
<!--quoteo(post=1638277:date=Jul 10 2007, 01:05 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jul 10 2007, 01:05 PM) [snapback]1638277[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ... in the near future, that is. Ten, twenty years from now, who knows? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Singleplayer games can never hold my interest like a multiplayer game can. I can't put more than an hour into SP, but I can put 6+ in one sitting into a good MP game.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1638299:date=Jul 10 2007, 07:26 PM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jul 10 2007, 07:26 PM) [snapback]1638299[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Singleplayer games can never hold my interest like a multiplayer game can. I can't put more than an hour into SP, but I can put 6+ in one sitting into a good MP game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The point he was making that it is possible that we might have truly life like AI within our life times. At that point what is the difference between playing a bot and playing a human?
<!--quoteo(post=1638316:date=Jul 10 2007, 08:40 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 10 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]1638316[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well the B&W 2 god pet got the award of worlds most intelligent AI in Guinness world records, that gotta count for something? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
<!--quoteo(post=1638304:date=Jul 11 2007, 01:49 AM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jul 11 2007, 01:49 AM) [snapback]1638304[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Knowing there's a human on the other end. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In many cases, that really is <i>not</i> a good thing...
<!--quoteo(post=1638328:date=Jul 10 2007, 06:30 PM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ Jul 10 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]1638328[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> In many cases, that really is <i>not</i> a good thing... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure it is. I've never met someone I couldn't prove my superiority over in one way or another.
<!--quoteo(post=1638340:date=Jul 10 2007, 11:20 PM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jul 10 2007, 11:20 PM) [snapback]1638340[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Sure it is. I've never met someone I couldn't prove my superiority over in one way or another. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Chuck Norris FTW
<!--quoteo(post=1638342:date=Jul 10 2007, 10:53 PM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jul 10 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]1638342[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Chuck Norris is an incompetent nonce who would roundhouse kick himself in the skull if he so much as even approached me. I am God. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1638167:date=Jul 10 2007, 01:23 AM:name=Shzar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shzar @ Jul 10 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]1638167[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I always took the ease with which dwarves drown as evidence that they are very poor swimmers, not just stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's poor swimming and theres swimming back and forth in a 1-tile wide channel with dry land to EITHER SIDE until you drown.
<!--quoteo(post=1638350:date=Jul 11 2007, 12:56 AM:name=NEO_Phyte)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEO_Phyte @ Jul 11 2007, 12:56 AM) [snapback]1638350[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There's poor swimming and theres swimming back and forth in a 1-tile wide channel with dry land to EITHER SIDE until you drown.
Dorfs are stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> maybe the slopes were too steep on either side and he couldn't climb up? what a way to go <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> like a sim in a pool without a ladder...
<!--quoteo(post=1638316:date=Jul 10 2007, 07:40 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 10 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]1638316[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well the B&W 2 god pet got the award of worlds most intelligent AI in Guinness world records, that gotta count for something? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, shame they forgot to make the game fun.
This thread might as well have been locked after Pulse's post on page 2; he said everything that needs to be said. Its not about the AI being smart, or being observant, its about the AI behaving by the same rules as they would have to in reality, and <i>still</i> providing a challenge.
A much underrated AI to my mind was FarCry's. Its the only AI to date which I have observed shooting at where it <i>thought</i> I was rather than just where I was. If you fired a few shots at a group of mercs, then ran around them a little, they would continue to shoot in the direction of where they last saw you <i>even if they couldn't see you</i>. I've seen very few AIs do that, even in HL2 the grunts won't use suppressing fire, they'll only shoot if they've actually seen you.
The problem with realistic AI behavior is that it requires prediction prediction prediction. To seem believable the AI can't just <i>know</i> where you are if it can't see you, it has to guess where you are. And it has to guess well, or it'll <i>still</i> be unrealistic.
<!--quoteo(post=1638475:date=Jul 11 2007, 05:00 PM:name=Nil_IQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nil_IQ @ Jul 11 2007, 05:00 PM) [snapback]1638475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> A much underrated AI to my mind was FarCry's. Its the only AI to date which I have observed shooting at where it <i>thought</i> I was rather than just where I was. If you fired a few shots at a group of mercs, then ran around them a little, they would continue to shoot in the direction of where they last saw you <i>even if they couldn't see you</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe I was just bad at that game, but they always seemed to just hit me. I could think I was hiding in the bushes but they'd still hit me.
Comments
I honestly never saw anything like that.
I have sniped a good number of people, and all it ever changes is that they go into "oh crap, some one is trying to kill us" mode.
Oh well, I also had a tendency to promptly run in and blow things up, but that is just because I am silly like that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i swear, i came around a corner and was a good 100 yards away at the bandit camp right before the first lab (x16 i think its called) and i shot the guy that nobody was looking at, the other guy turns around and shoots the 2nd guy in the face with his sawn off shotgun and he falls down into a pit. I literally yelled 'woah ######!' and started laughing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I know he was not shooting at me because it was in a completely different direction from me.
Chess: Chess is way more complicated than TTT, but it is still a rather simple game with a number of limited useful moves (although the total number of possible moves is infinite) so by having a huge library of games available and brute-forcing the chess AI can beat nearly any opponent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting fact I learned in Algorithms & Complexity at uni last semester:
The faster you make your move in computerised chess, the less likley the AIs move will be the best possible move as it has yet to calculate it.
Interesting fact I learned in Algorithms & Complexity at uni last semester:
The faster you make your move in computerised chess, the less likley the AIs move will be the best possible move as it has yet to calculate it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only because a chess AI either plays against a real game clock (deep blue vs grandmasters) or because it plays against an internal clock. There always a timelimit for the AI.
Edit: So the only way to beat a chess AI without exploiting its programming, would be with the help of intuition. If you can feel the correct move before the AI can find it through brute-forcing you will win in a game thats clocked.
example 1, Hitman
a stylish, stealthy assasin game. guaranteed at some point before the level ends i'll royally f*** up and every bad guy comes hunting for me. it should be the end of the player but you just point your crosshair towards that turn in the corridor and mow them down 1 by 1 as they file in. poor AI.
example 2, Half-Life 1
ground-breaking awesomeness all the reviewers said- one of the reasons being the grunts' AI. they'd work together, flank, cover, etc. what did i notice? the room ahead of me is full of military chatter, so i just run and gib everything that moves.
it kills the replayability but for singleplayer games i'd rather play heavily scripted games then games that rely on AI. for the latter, developers rave about each bit of combat being different every time you replay it but meh, so what if the grunt moves clockwise around the crate instead of counter-clockwise- i've still got a machinegun that's going to work exactly the same as it did before.
for replayability no AI wil ever compare to multiplayer games.
... in the near future, that is. Ten, twenty years from now, who knows?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Singleplayer games can never hold my interest like a multiplayer game can. I can't put more than an hour into SP, but I can put 6+ in one sitting into a good MP game.
Singleplayer games can never hold my interest like a multiplayer game can. I can't put more than an hour into SP, but I can put 6+ in one sitting into a good MP game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point he was making that it is possible that we might have truly life like AI within our life times. At that point what is the difference between playing a bot and playing a human?
Well the B&W 2 god pet got the award of worlds most intelligent AI in Guinness world records, that gotta count for something?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OOoooOooOoOOOOoooOOoOOoo.
Knowing there's a human on the other end.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In many cases, that really is <i>not</i> a good thing...
In many cases, that really is <i>not</i> a good thing...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure it is. I've never met someone I couldn't prove my superiority over in one way or another.
Sure it is. I've never met someone I couldn't prove my superiority over in one way or another.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chuck Norris FTW
Chuck Norris is an incompetent nonce who would roundhouse kick himself in the skull if he so much as even approached me. I am God.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um...He's a C-Class actor. =/
I always took the ease with which dwarves drown as evidence that they are very poor swimmers, not just stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's poor swimming and theres swimming back and forth in a 1-tile wide channel with dry land to EITHER SIDE until you drown.
Dorfs are stupid.
There's poor swimming and theres swimming back and forth in a 1-tile wide channel with dry land to EITHER SIDE until you drown.
Dorfs are stupid.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe the slopes were too steep on either side and he couldn't climb up? what a way to go <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> like a sim in a pool without a ladder...
Well the B&W 2 god pet got the award of worlds most intelligent AI in Guinness world records, that gotta count for something?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, shame they forgot to make the game fun.
This thread might as well have been locked after Pulse's post on page 2; he said everything that needs to be said. Its not about the AI being smart, or being observant, its about the AI behaving by the same rules as they would have to in reality, and <i>still</i> providing a challenge.
A much underrated AI to my mind was FarCry's. Its the only AI to date which I have observed shooting at where it <i>thought</i> I was rather than just where I was. If you fired a few shots at a group of mercs, then ran around them a little, they would continue to shoot in the direction of where they last saw you <i>even if they couldn't see you</i>. I've seen very few AIs do that, even in HL2 the grunts won't use suppressing fire, they'll only shoot if they've actually seen you.
The problem with realistic AI behavior is that it requires prediction prediction prediction. To seem believable the AI can't just <i>know</i> where you are if it can't see you, it has to guess where you are. And it has to guess well, or it'll <i>still</i> be unrealistic.
A much underrated AI to my mind was FarCry's. Its the only AI to date which I have observed shooting at where it <i>thought</i> I was rather than just where I was. If you fired a few shots at a group of mercs, then ran around them a little, they would continue to shoot in the direction of where they last saw you <i>even if they couldn't see you</i>.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I was just bad at that game, but they always seemed to just hit me. I could think I was hiding in the bushes but they'd still hit me.