<!--quoteo(post=1637173:date=Jul 3 2007, 06:32 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jul 3 2007, 06:32 AM) [snapback]1637173[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One part confused me. You talked about using the sky texture so the comm could see into the service tunnels? Thats not how comms do that. Take the ceiling of the tunnels and turn them into a func_seethrough. Wouldnt that fix that whole issue?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The commander’s view will start from the height that you set, go down to the first surface, and ignore everything underneath. However, if I fill in the space above the bridge with sky brush, it would no longer be a part of the map. The engine will not render space that a brush occupies. Therefore, it would start from the ceiling, inside the bridge, and go down to the floor.
Alternatively, I could adjust the height of the commander’s view so that you can see into the bridge, but that would screw up the view in other areas of the map and would not do anything for the service tunnels.
A func_seethrough would work, but would not block vis, and thus create problems with r_speeds.
The pic above is from the doorway on the power core side of the bridge, which the commander can see. He can drop ammo/meds/structures right up to the edge of the doorway, and he can also scan ahead to make sure that aliens aren't waiting to ambush you on the other side before you walk into the bridge.
In the green circle, you can see the vent opening that leads to the weldable vent in power core that aliens can use to ambush, but again, keep in mind that the comm can drop ammo/meds there.
In the red circle, you can see a misaligned texture that I just noticed when taking the pic. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
And here's the view from the other side of the same bridge:
The commander can see and drop ammo/meds/structures here, too, just not inside the bridge, but the aliens can't ambush marines inside the bridge unless they have cloaking.
The tunnels are a little longer and curve slightly so they may be a little more risky, but you'll still have a good line of sight, and the aliens can't ambush in the tunnels unless they have cloaking. The best tactic for the tunnels would be to chuck a grenade or shoot into it a bit to see if it's clear first, and get the commander to scan ahead.
Incredible mapping; one of the best NS maps I've seen. I like the cleaner areas, it's nice to see that in an NS map. That one screenshot with the diagonal black pipes jutting out of the white walls is amazing, I really like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1637550:date=Jul 5 2007, 07:03 PM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frostymoose @ Jul 5 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1637550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only concern I can think of is that it looks like the top hive could be sieged from double... which would be quite terrible for balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've been concerned about the siege points at that hive for a while, but I didn't think to check double. After a test, I found that you're right. It is possible if you put the sieges right up to the wall, and I agree completely that that's unacceptable. Therefore, I think the quickest solution, in order to still be able to release it this weekend, is to simply move the hive up. I've just finished doing an ent update with the hive moved, tested the siege points, and here's the battle plan:
The yellow hive shows the new location. I'll make sure that it's high enough that an onos can walk under it so that it doesn't block traffic, and that there's also enough room for a gorge to camp out on top of it to heal.
I'll revise the old hive area, circled in green, and use it for spawns and some defense positions up top.
The yellow and orange circles show siege points along surrounding walls. It's the area in the orange circle that I was originally concerned about because it's a bit of a distance for aliens, and time is critical when marnies are about to siege. Therefore, I'll add a vent in the area that's highlighted in pink. There's quite a bit of area to choose from when building sieges, but it's basically on the doorstep of the hive so it shouldn't be too hard to defend -- unlike double.
On the other side, there's another siege point circled in white. While it looks like it may be possible to siege from the top area within the circle, where the vent exit is, I wasn't able to siege the hive from there when testing. You have to drop the sieges a little further down in the hallway leading to the hive.
Here are some pics of the new vent system I added to waste:
First, going into the vent from the Waste hive doorway:
A gorge can jump out of the vent, use the catwalk to move around Waste, drop the hive and/or some chambers, and jump back into the vent to safety if need be.
Now, I'll load up some mapping tunes and get to work on Cargo.
this is one of the very few maps that impresses me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
though your cargo reminds me alot of the one in tanith (name, catwalk, and vague shape similarity)
You can see a flat wall with angled orange lights. The hive used to be behind that.
In this next pic, you can see a vent above the rt and an opening in the floor, by the rt, that leads to another vent. It's not new, but I thought I'd point out the additional paths anyways.
The flat wall was removed to open up the room. Think of the top area like The Rock movie: <i>I'm up here, and you're down there!</i>
The wall where the old hive used to be also juts into the room more to reduce the chance of chambers getting sieged from double, but there's still space on the sides for spawns.
The vent that runs along that area went over the old hive position a bit, but the commander has a clear view of the hive now:
Man that map looks almost perfect, add more debris and broken stuff laying around to take care of that 'ultra clean' look. A little infestation here and there, a fallen computer, few light fixtures broken, and a bit more variance in light and you have a map good enough to be for ns itself <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
It took a little longer than I thought. I had to constantly optimize and test to ensure that the map stayed within compile limits and to avoid alloc block errors or Half-Life would do something like this:
-Cargo Hive: Is there no way for marines to get up to the second level? It seems as though theres a lot of space up there. Wouldn't that be a bit too good for aliens to place chambers and camp, especially healing gorges during a siege?
-Cargo hive, with its surrounding siege rooms, is set up very well. I'm definitely looking forward to both attacking and defending that hive.
-The rounded vents going from Lerks Nest to Dbl: I spent a full 20 seconds trying to get into that rounded vent. It seems damn near impossible without a jump (normal skulk movement should never require a jump for what would usually be a normal wall-walk). Consider changing this somewhat, as i can foresee a lot of players complaining. Perhaps pulling the round part up a few feet, so that you go up a square vent and THEN go into the circular vent, that might fix it.
-I love the elevators. Not enough elevators have full-bottoms, i.e. ppl cant go underneath them when they're up. I wanted to do the same for my map, but couldnt for various reasons.
-Nice general look to the vents, with the small borders around each entrance etc
-Perhaps the biggest layout issue though is the lack of a secondary left approach to Cargo Hive. If the aliens have Waste Handling (left hive), it is impossible for the marines to approach Cargo from the left. As such, a smart strategy (when starting with Waste) would be to lock down a bottleneck on the other side of Cargo: say, North East Access. With just an OC, a chamber and a gorge (available from one person within a minute, usually), that one player could almost guarantee a 2nd hive. My suggestion would be to add a route like this: <a href="http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nssaturn0000qv9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1748/nssaturn0000qv9.th.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
This would relatively solve the issue. To consider an equivalent of the current situation, think of Veil: it would be as if The Dome was blocked off from the north. If it was, you would not be able to approach Cargo from the east without necessarily going through Pipeline.
-COMM VIEW: Dear god, you REALLY need to raise the comm view. I only hopped in just now to start checking out the sieges, and it feels like my comm's eyes would be pressed against the marines' helmets. Definitely raise this by a significant amount. I checked around, almost the entire map is the same level; meaning, a comm would almost definitely get a headache. For the few areas that are a bit lower, dont worry about it. You're FAR from hitting the Comm r_speed limits.
SIEGEING: Now, i dont know if you specifically did this on purpose, but both of the outside hives are a B*TCH to siege from the marine-start side. And, both are significantly easier to siege from the middle-hive side.
-Waste Hive. This hive seems damn near impossible to siege from the MS side. You can fit 4 sieges in you place them VERY TIGHTLY against the walls at the end of Waste Halls, but frankly, most comms would not fit them that tightly and probably conclude that you cant siege from there. I'd suggest making this a bit easier. You can also siege Waste hive from the BEGINNING of Waste Halls. I dont think you intended for this. You can only fit 3 sieges, and they have to be very tight as well, but this makes for a very, very easy siege, especially if the comm has additional pinging power (a 2nd obs).
-Water Hive. To siege from MS is a b*tch here too. Best would be to put the TF in the corner of Alloc Block, then have the sieges in the hallway next to the hive; but this is RIGHT NEXT to the door into the hive, and i'd foresee aliens dominating this pretty hard.
-Cargo Hive. The main siege spot would be right in Loading Bay (as sieges just about anywhere in there will reach), and that would be an awesome battle. My concern though is with North East Access: you can fit as many sieges in here as you want. This would be a very imbalanced siege, imo. The aliens have the one vent that goes right into the room, sure, but that would be so overused that at least a single marine would just watch it, and decimate anything coming through. Hence, the main route would have to be used a lot more, and the main route to that hive is very long, and not alien-friendly much at all. Sure, there's the vent from Loading Bay that flanks a bit, but i doubt enough players would use it. IMO, this siege would be very, very easy for marines. It'd be a tough siege to fix up, as a mapper, but i'd highly suggest trying. Perhaps move all of that area west and a bit north.
********************
Thats it for the constructive criticism. Awesome job man, this is a really sweet map. You have a couple things that you should really consider fixing up for the next version (hence why you should always start maps off with a _b1 or such <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), but it is in no way unplayable. Try pimping your map on some of the server forums: www.iam-clan.com, www.tacticalgamer.com, www.g4b2s.com, www.nsbadclan.net, etc.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Looks nice, although you really need a snappy skybox. The current one makes the station a little bland to look out on the outside, also some light coming from a sun or something reflecting off the station hull would be nice.
Are you sure about not adding an extension to the mapname? I could run it on my server right now, but I just need to be sure about this so that players don't get problems with updated versions.
First, sorry about the file naming. I double checked the mapping guide for file naming, but was tired and in a rush so I forgot the beta version. Second, stix pointed out something that I can fix quickly. Therefore, I want to run another compile, and I'll post a new link to that as the first beta in a few hours. I took the old link down for now to prevent confusion.
BTW, the guide says that sounds should go in the sounds folder, but it is actually the <b>sound</b> folder.
<!--quoteo(post=1638575:date=Jul 12 2007, 06:58 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jul 12 2007, 06:58 AM) [snapback]1638575[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The rounded vents going from Lerks Nest to Dbl: I spent a full 20 seconds trying to get into that rounded vent. It seems damn near impossible without a jump (normal skulk movement should never require a jump for what would usually be a normal wall-walk). Consider changing this somewhat, as i can foresee a lot of players complaining. Perhaps pulling the round part up a few feet, so that you go up a square vent and THEN go into the circular vent, that might fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is why I want to run another compile before posting a new link. Normally, there is enough room to get into the pipe no problem. However, the frame of the vent leading to the pipe was originally a func_illusion to prevent players from getting stuck on it. Later, I decided to switch back to regular brushes and used a clip brush on the floor of the vent instead, and clipped the sides to lower clipnodes. This is the cause of the problem you're talking about, and I'm glad you caught it. Normally, I keep a list of things I change before a compile and go through it to test for problems after the compile, but I missed that one. To fix it, I'll simply remove the clip brushes, and make the frame flush with the walls, floor and ceiling. I already double checked it in a test map before running a full compile, and there is no problem once the clip brushes are removed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Cargo Hive: Is there no way for marines to get up to the second level? It seems as though theres a lot of space up there. Wouldn't that be a bit too good for aliens to place chambers and camp, especially healing gorges during a siege?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That was intentional. Gorges are vulnerable when healing the hive, and because there are spawns up in the top space, making it harder for marines to get up there also makes it harder to spawn camp. However, they can still use grenades, and it does nothing to protect against jetpacks. If it is a problem, I can easily add a ladder, but let's see how it plays out first.
I'd think of the top level of cargo like the top level in Vent, in Origin. Imagine if marines couldnt get up there? It'd be heaven for aliens... and unbalanced.
And if you're doing a recompile, consider the other things i mentioned, but especially, please raise the comm view. Its WAY too close to ground level.
And have you thought about that extra hallway i explained in the pic?
OK, a new version is now available with the b1 file name for the bsp, minimaps and res file. This also fixes the problem with getting into the pipe from the vent at lerk's nest.
Edit: removed old download link, and put up to date link in the original post.
<!--quoteo(post=1638664:date=Jul 12 2007, 10:26 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jul 12 2007, 10:26 PM) [snapback]1638664[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd think of the top level of cargo like the top level in Vent, in Origin. Imagine if marines couldnt get up there? It'd be heaven for aliens... and unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The top of powersilo in ns_nothing can be used for the same purpose, but there are tactics that marines can use to deal with it. Similarly, aliens can get on top of the hive in most maps, build chambers and use it as a meat shield, but again, marines have tactics for dealing with it.
There are spawns in the top area of cargo, and making it difficult for marines to get up there also means that it's a little harder for them to spawn camp, which, I think, is a good thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you're doing a recompile, consider the other things i mentioned, but especially, please raise the comm view. Its WAY too close to ground level.
And have you thought about that extra hallway i explained in the pic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I already played around with the height of the comm view and set it to the current height because it's the best way to see as much of the map as possible. If I increase the height, the comm view will be above the roof of power core, and that means that the commander will only be able to see into double through the small piece on top. To prevent that, I'd have to fill in the space above the roof and redesign the pipe that leads to double. It's possible, but it's more time consuming than simply changing the height.
I did consider adding a path by waste at one point, but at the time, I was a bit concerned about making the map complex. It's a good idea, but I'll have to lower leaves and clipnodes first.
Because redesigning parts of the map will take more time, it's best to save that for another beta. I'd also like to see how the map plays before spending a lot of time changing it.
Seriously though, the commander mode needs to be fixed. You probably shouldn't wait around for the complaints to pour in. You're talking about crippling gameplay for aesthetics.
How could a commander possibly support at this scale? A marine can practically jump right off the screen from the center.
Oh, i didnt even think of that as a reason why you'd have the comm view as such. It never occurred to me.
Well, that can be fixed fairly easily, imo. The top of PowerCore isnt visible from anywhere, right? Just make the actual structure bigger. Have the vents extend out of the side of the new, higher part of the center. Make is so that there isnt actually space, clipped or not, above that structure. Then you can have the comm height as high as you want.
But it definitely is a crippling issue man. I was totally stoked about this map, then i hopped in the CC and cringed. I comm a lot, and i don't think i could handle an entire game comming on this map, with that height.
Oh, and using Powersilo as an example isnt quite the same. There are no spawns up there, and gorges cant heal the hive from there. Yes, its a fun spot to spit/lerk from, and a DC would heal the hive (i think), but thats a far cry from what you have going on in Cargo. Trying to avoid spawncamping is always a good thing, but it seems like its far too big of an advantage for aliens... especially compared to how insanely easy it would be to spawncamp the other hives, especially waste. A simple ladder would retain all the fun, and most of the alien benefits, while giving the marines a fair shot.
And also, the North East Access siege on Cargo should really be dealt with. You set up an awesome siege battle around Cargo, but that all goes to s*** with this siege. You can either take the time to really move around the architecture, OR... you could try a more environmental deterrent. Maybe put a small broken pipe near the ground, and put water covering the are where the siege cannons reach? That'd be a quick fix that could actually work really well.
And one last thing. I posted that pic of a route addition. Thats only a suggestion, im sure it could be done other ways; but just realize that the current layout is pretty much critically flawed in that sense, where one of the ONLY TWO exits/approaches of the middle hive, ONLY leads to another hive. Sure, in Caged, if you go from MS towards Gen, there are no route-branches (a bad thing imo), but at least thats from MS to a hive, not between two hives.
Using a highly scientific method, I raised the commanders view. While taking a look at some ns maps, I noticed that the comm chair was about the same width of a finger. Therefore, I increased the height in Saturn and put my finger on the screen to see if it was about right.
Next, I used my magic eraser to fix some stuff:
First, you can see grey texture covering some of skywalk in the first beta. That is because of sky brush on top of it - more on that later - but it's removed in beta 2.
The room above marine Marine Start isn't playable area and may be distracting for the commander. Therefore, I made the back face of the ceiling brush black, scaled up of course, and put sky brush on top of it so that the black face gets rendered instead of the room below.
In this next pic, you can see that there is a grate above the node in waste now so that the commander can see it.
Also, the hive has been moved towards the front enough so that you can set up two rows of sieges that will reach from the siege point in the hallway.
Here you can see that the exterior cuts into the view of the power core hallway. I can't really do anything about that, but the commander still has a pretty good view of it.
I also took the small top piece off of the core for now. Although, I may bring it back in another beta.
I want to raise the view a little more so that the commander has a better view inside the pipe.
Also, you can see that there are still some visibility problems on the pipe side of power core that are caused by raising the comm view, but it's only a small section and I'll try to get that cleaned up in another beta.
So, that's added to the work list for the next beta, but beta 2 will solve several problems.
And yes, I added a ladder to cargo to give poachers easy access to the top area. Poor gorges.... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1638738:date=Jul 13 2007, 07:56 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jul 13 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]1638738[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And also, the North East Access siege on Cargo should really be dealt with. You set up an awesome siege battle around Cargo, but that all goes to s*** with this siege. You can either take the time to really move around the architecture, OR... you could try a more environmental deterrent. Maybe put a small broken pipe near the ground, and put water covering the are where the siege cannons reach? That'd be a quick fix that could actually work really well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think it would be similar to data in hera. There is a vent leading directly to the siege point and a fairly long hall. Moreover, the siege point is elevated, which makes it more challenging for an onos. The vent isn't as deep either; therefore, it's harder for a gorge to back up and heal while biling. However, it still works and it's a popular map.
Still, I like the water idea, and I think that would also be a good solution to the other siege point in waste halls.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And one last thing. I posted that pic of a route addition. Thats only a suggestion, im sure it could be done other ways; but just realize that the current layout is pretty much critically flawed in that sense, where one of the ONLY TWO exits/approaches of the middle hive, ONLY leads to another hive. Sure, in Caged, if you go from MS towards Gen, there are no route-branches (a bad thing imo), but at least thats from MS to a hive, not between two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll try to work it in, but I have to do some optimizing first.
You'll notice that some of the spotlights are flush with the ceiling and some use a 1 unit gap. I'm not really a fan of having two different textures flush with each other because it can look cheesy if truncated and flat, but I took another look at it in game, and the spotlights look ok when they're flush. Therefore, I'll probably go around the map and change all the spotlights so that they're flush. That will lower the number of leaves used, and it'll also lower the ent count because they're currently func_illusions. I'll leave the larger lights for 3D details because they're more noticeable.
Once I get the leaves and clipnodes down a bit, I can start working on an additional path.
<!--quoteo(post=1638732:date=Jul 13 2007, 06:24 AM:name=tojomojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tojomojo @ Jul 13 2007, 06:24 AM) [snapback]1638732[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10005_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The options for the service tunnels are as follows:
1) Leave them as they are and allow players to move through them with the limitation that the commander cannot build inside them and has to drop meds/ammo on either end.
Personally, I don't see the building limitation as a problem because building inside the tunnels would only block traffic. Concerning meds/ammo, marines have a clear line of sight and aliens have to cloak to ambush inside the tunnels. Therefore, marines can simply shoot ahead or chuck a grenade in to make sure it's clear. Then, they can run through and get meds/ammo on the other side, if needed, and the comm can scan ahead to make sure it's clear.
2) The exterior area can be removed so that the space above the tunnels can be filled in, which would allow the commander to see into them.
3) The tunnels can be closed off so that players cannot go into them, but they'd still be able to see everything in the exterior area.
4) The top of the service tunnels can be turned into func_seethroughs, but that'd screw up r_speeds.
I don't consider 2 and 4 to be real options. Therefore, if the way it is currently set up is a problem, I think the best solution would be to simply not allow players to go into the service tunnels.
I'm thinking about trying a regular brush with the null texture on top so that the commander can see into it without ruining the r_speeds or lighting inside the tunnels. Then, a 2nd roof brush in the exact same spot that's a func_seethrough with the service tunnel texture on it instead of null to prevent players from seeing into the tunnels, through the nulled area, when they look out into the exterior area. It might be worth experimenting with this.
Just func_seethrough the ceiling, or leave it. If you have any normal brushes, null'd or not, the comm cant drop through them. And man, i doubt the r_speeds will suffer much at all. You already use high texture scales, and even though i havnt checked them out, im sure r_speeds are plenty low in those areas. You're only talking about an additional few faces (of the inside of the pipe, which isnt many) added on to the already many visible. Honestly, im sure r_speeds would be just fine.
And dude, that siege on Cargo needs a-fixin. You explained all the reasons why its tougher for aliens, when i was already explaining that aliens would be ruined. But thats just by the approach and lonely vent. I'd feel guilty as a comm to use that siege, but it would definitely work.
The view of the exterior has to be carefully controlled. I'll explain in more detail below and explain how I optimized parts of the map.
According to the mapping guide, the max wpoly limit should be 700. However, I think it is a mistake to set a fixed number, and some of the maps in ns exceed 900. Instead, it's best to think of a poly limit as a budget. Sometimes it is worth paying a little more for a better product, and sometimes products are simply overpriced. If you work efficiently, you should get good value for the price. The emphasis should not be on a fixed number, but rather on value vs. cost.
Here’s a picture of the exterior while looking up close at the window in communications:
Even though the player doesn’t see it all, the engine still renders it. Originally, if you stood in the middle of the room, it maxed out at about 1000. To fix that up a little, I added the wall as a vis block. The r_speeds still max out at about 800 when you’re by the window, but they drop like a rock in the rest of the room, which is where most of the action will be.
Forgive the rough look of the vis blocking wall. It wasn’t done at the time I took the picture. However, you can see that by the node, the r_speeds drop to about 500, and if you stand behind the vis wall, in the center of the room, it’ll drop even more. Therefore, the view does deviate a little from the 700 limit, but it’s contained to a small area of the room that won’t see as much action.
In the top right corner, you can also see how I lit the monitors. At 128 x 256, an overlay would chew up more texture memory. Instead, I used a func_illusion that faces the screen rather than the room, and set the render mode to texture and render amount to zero. Then, I used the eyedropper tool in Photoshop to get the most common color in the monitor texture, and used that for the light texture, which is only 16 x 16, in the rad file. However, I've since replaced the func_illusions with entity lighting to lower leaves.
All the windows in the core bridges used to be open, and like Communications before the vis block, the r_speeds maxed out at about 1000. I fixed it by closing some of the windows, which lowered it to about 500.
In the red circle, you can see brush fragmentation that’s caused by grouping multiple brushes into one entity. In the green circle, you can see faces repeating because the texture scale isn’t high enough. Because there are so many faces on the cylinders, this gets costly.
To optimize it, I scaled up the texture so that it does not repeat. Simply divide the length by the chop size, which is 240, to find the minimum texture scale that will solve this. Next, I used a separate entity for each cylinder to prevent the brush fragmentation, and since the cylinders are entities, I used null on the ends so that they are not rendered.
Awesome looking map, I'm excited to try it out. So far I've run around on the version named without an extension, which was loaded on our server for awhile, but haven't played a full game there yet.
Most of the obvious complaints have already been asked and answered. I'm glad you fixed the bridges into double so the comm can see, and it wouldn't bother me much to have the maint tunnels still invisible to the comm.
About the second access to the north-west side of the octagon--it looks like double is intentionally balanced to have easy access to the south-west and north-east corners of the map, while not providing good access to the north-west or south-east corners. I like that balance. The extra corridor proposed by Stix would break that dynamic and make double much more powerful.
Still, he's right about the northwest corner needing some access to <i>something</i>. I'd suggest adding a pathway along the leftside of the map that bypasses the Hive and rejoins the area later on...for comparison, think of the passageway (P-corridor I think) that runs just north of the southern Hive in NS_Altair. It doesn't really go anywhere new, but it links the right side and left side of the hive without forcing you to walk THROUGH the hive to get there.
This map is looking great, and I am so glad to see mappers out there that still make maps with attention to every little detail--no more boring, bland, one-textured siege maps <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
Keep up the good work, I am definitely looking forward to adding this map to our classic server and seeing how it plays out when its done.
Beta 3 will be released soon, but for now, here are some of the changes:
First up, the siege points by waste and cargo have been fixed up.
In this first pic, you can see that it is no longer possible to build sieges in the far corner of waste halls. The grate in the red circle is a func_illusion with some water below it to prevent structures from being dropped there.
There are also 1 unit high func_nobuilds on the sides of the halls, circled in green, to prevent building there. It's only necessary to have the nobuild along the wall between the halls and the hive to prevent sieging, but to be consistent, I used a nobuild on both sides of each hall.
It was also possible to siege from the area circled in yellow, but I moved the hive a little further away so that it's no longer within range from there.
The grate/water in this pic of northeast access is the same deal as waste halls. It is no longer possible to build there, and the area circled in red has a 1 unit func_nobuild to prevent sieging as well.
The vent between cargo and northeast was no longer important. Therefore, it was removed to free up resources. Moreover, I think the vent might have made the path to double a bit too short, and removing it fixes that.
It used to be possible to siege from the corner of this room between northeast access and loading bay:
Notice that there is no black border between the wall and the floor, or between the the walls and the doors in the original version. I tried adding it before, but had problems with leaves. However, after more optimizing, I was able to finish it off.
This may be a little picky, but in this next pic you can see that the black lines in the texture on the bridge exterior, circled in red, now align with the walls:
A new path between power core and distribution is now in place. I actually had to redo this because it was originally too close to waste halls, which made it possible to siege the rt in waste. To prevent this, the path has to be relatively straight, but I used some lighting tricks to keep things interesting.
In this pic from the power core side, you can see the entrance to the new path is dark, but the dark area is short and you can clearly see light in the area beyond. The dark area should be enough to make it a good ambushing spot for skulks without being hard to find your way through.
Comments
Alternatively, I could adjust the height of the commander’s view so that you can see into the bridge, but that would screw up the view in other areas of the map and would not do anything for the service tunnels.
A func_seethrough would work, but would not block vis, and thus create problems with r_speeds.
Perhaps a couple pics will help:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/B4nAfter/ns_saturn_bridge1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The pic above is from the doorway on the power core side of the bridge, which the commander can see. He can drop ammo/meds/structures right up to the edge of the doorway, and he can also scan ahead to make sure that aliens aren't waiting to ambush you on the other side before you walk into the bridge.
In the green circle, you can see the vent opening that leads to the weldable vent in power core that aliens can use to ambush, but again, keep in mind that the comm can drop ammo/meds there.
In the red circle, you can see a misaligned texture that I just noticed when taking the pic. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
And here's the view from the other side of the same bridge:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/B4nAfter/ns_saturn_bridge2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The commander can see and drop ammo/meds/structures here, too, just not inside the bridge, but the aliens can't ambush marines inside the bridge unless they have cloaking.
The tunnels are a little longer and curve slightly so they may be a little more risky, but you'll still have a good line of sight, and the aliens can't ambush in the tunnels unless they have cloaking. The best tactic for the tunnels would be to chuck a grenade or shoot into it a bit to see if it's clear first, and get the commander to scan ahead.
Good job! Can't wait to see your work on NS2.
The only concern I can think of is that it looks like the top hive could be sieged from double... which would be quite terrible for balance.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/battle_plan.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The yellow hive shows the new location. I'll make sure that it's high enough that an onos can walk under it so that it doesn't block traffic, and that there's also enough room for a gorge to camp out on top of it to heal.
I'll revise the old hive area, circled in green, and use it for spawns and some defense positions up top.
The yellow and orange circles show siege points along surrounding walls. It's the area in the orange circle that I was originally concerned about because it's a bit of a distance for aliens, and time is critical when marnies are about to siege. Therefore, I'll add a vent in the area that's highlighted in pink. There's quite a bit of area to choose from when building sieges, but it's basically on the doorstep of the hive so it shouldn't be too hard to defend -- unlike double.
On the other side, there's another siege point circled in white. While it looks like it may be possible to siege from the top area within the circle, where the vent exit is, I wasn't able to siege the hive from there when testing. You have to drop the sieges a little further down in the hallway leading to the hive.
Here are some pics of the new vent system I added to waste:
First, going into the vent from the Waste hive doorway:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/waste_vent1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
which leads into this next pic as the red arrow shows:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/waste_vent2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
A bird's eye view (or is that a lerk's eye view?) of the siege point where the first pic was taken:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/waste_vent3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Then, it leads out to the area above the pipes:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/waste_vent4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Should be a good spot for lerks to do what they do best -- be annoying.
This isn't new, but I figured I'd throw it in anyways:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/waste_vent5.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
On the catwalk
Yes, the catwalk....
A gorge can jump out of the vent, use the catwalk to move around Waste, drop the hive and/or some chambers, and jump back into the vent to safety if need be.
Now, I'll load up some mapping tunes and get to work on Cargo.
though your cargo reminds me alot of the one in tanith (name, catwalk, and vague shape similarity)
but good map, cant wait to try it
First, here's the old pad:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/B4nAfter/cargo1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
You can see a flat wall with angled orange lights. The hive used to be behind that.
In this next pic, you can see a vent above the rt and an opening in the floor, by the rt, that leads to another vent. It's not new, but I thought I'd point out the additional paths anyways.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/B4nAfter/cargo3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Instead of a chandelier, there's a hive in the center of the room. It matches the decor better.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/B4nAfter/cargo4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The flat wall was removed to open up the room. Think of the top area like The Rock movie: <i>I'm up here, and you're down there!</i>
The wall where the old hive used to be also juts into the room more to reduce the chance of chambers getting sieged from double, but there's still space on the sides for spawns.
The vent that runs along that area went over the old hive position a bit, but the commander has a clear view of the hive now:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/B4nAfter/cargo5.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I also thought of a better idea for a vent to northeast access, but I have to do some more optimizing first to free up some leaves.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/grin.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
It took a little longer than I thought. I had to constantly optimize and test to ensure that the map stayed within compile limits and to avoid alloc block errors or Half-Life would do something like this:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/RspeedsnDesign/sorry.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
All 8 minimaps are included in the zip file, but I only included the blue minimap with labels in the res file to keep downloads as short as possible.
-Cargo hive, with its surrounding siege rooms, is set up very well. I'm definitely looking forward to both attacking and defending that hive.
-The rounded vents going from Lerks Nest to Dbl: I spent a full 20 seconds trying to get into that rounded vent. It seems damn near impossible without a jump (normal skulk movement should never require a jump for what would usually be a normal wall-walk). Consider changing this somewhat, as i can foresee a lot of players complaining. Perhaps pulling the round part up a few feet, so that you go up a square vent and THEN go into the circular vent, that might fix it.
-I love the elevators. Not enough elevators have full-bottoms, i.e. ppl cant go underneath them when they're up. I wanted to do the same for my map, but couldnt for various reasons.
-Nice general look to the vents, with the small borders around each entrance etc
-Perhaps the biggest layout issue though is the lack of a secondary left approach to Cargo Hive. If the aliens have Waste Handling (left hive), it is impossible for the marines to approach Cargo from the left. As such, a smart strategy (when starting with Waste) would be to lock down a bottleneck on the other side of Cargo: say, North East Access. With just an OC, a chamber and a gorge (available from one person within a minute, usually), that one player could almost guarantee a 2nd hive. My suggestion would be to add a route like this:
<a href="http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nssaturn0000qv9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1748/nssaturn0000qv9.th.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
This would relatively solve the issue. To consider an equivalent of the current situation, think of Veil: it would be as if The Dome was blocked off from the north. If it was, you would not be able to approach Cargo from the east without necessarily going through Pipeline.
-COMM VIEW: Dear god, you REALLY need to raise the comm view. I only hopped in just now to start checking out the sieges, and it feels like my comm's eyes would be pressed against the marines' helmets. Definitely raise this by a significant amount. I checked around, almost the entire map is the same level; meaning, a comm would almost definitely get a headache. For the few areas that are a bit lower, dont worry about it. You're FAR from hitting the Comm r_speed limits.
SIEGEING:
Now, i dont know if you specifically did this on purpose, but both of the outside hives are a B*TCH to siege from the marine-start side. And, both are significantly easier to siege from the middle-hive side.
-Waste Hive. This hive seems damn near impossible to siege from the MS side. You can fit 4 sieges in you place them VERY TIGHTLY against the walls at the end of Waste Halls, but frankly, most comms would not fit them that tightly and probably conclude that you cant siege from there. I'd suggest making this a bit easier.
You can also siege Waste hive from the BEGINNING of Waste Halls. I dont think you intended for this. You can only fit 3 sieges, and they have to be very tight as well, but this makes for a very, very easy siege, especially if the comm has additional pinging power (a 2nd obs).
-Water Hive. To siege from MS is a b*tch here too. Best would be to put the TF in the corner of Alloc Block, then have the sieges in the hallway next to the hive; but this is RIGHT NEXT to the door into the hive, and i'd foresee aliens dominating this pretty hard.
-Cargo Hive. The main siege spot would be right in Loading Bay (as sieges just about anywhere in there will reach), and that would be an awesome battle. My concern though is with North East Access: you can fit as many sieges in here as you want. This would be a very imbalanced siege, imo. The aliens have the one vent that goes right into the room, sure, but that would be so overused that at least a single marine would just watch it, and decimate anything coming through. Hence, the main route would have to be used a lot more, and the main route to that hive is very long, and not alien-friendly much at all. Sure, there's the vent from Loading Bay that flanks a bit, but i doubt enough players would use it. IMO, this siege would be very, very easy for marines. It'd be a tough siege to fix up, as a mapper, but i'd highly suggest trying. Perhaps move all of that area west and a bit north.
********************
Thats it for the constructive criticism. Awesome job man, this is a really sweet map. You have a couple things that you should really consider fixing up for the next version (hence why you should always start maps off with a _b1 or such <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), but it is in no way unplayable. Try pimping your map on some of the server forums: www.iam-clan.com, www.tacticalgamer.com, www.g4b2s.com, www.nsbadclan.net, etc.
I could run it on my server right now, but I just need to be sure about this so that players don't get problems with updated versions.
BTW, the guide says that sounds should go in the sounds folder, but it is actually the <b>sound</b> folder.
<!--quoteo(post=1638575:date=Jul 12 2007, 06:58 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jul 12 2007, 06:58 AM) [snapback]1638575[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The rounded vents going from Lerks Nest to Dbl: I spent a full 20 seconds trying to get into that rounded vent. It seems damn near impossible without a jump (normal skulk movement should never require a jump for what would usually be a normal wall-walk). Consider changing this somewhat, as i can foresee a lot of players complaining. Perhaps pulling the round part up a few feet, so that you go up a square vent and THEN go into the circular vent, that might fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is why I want to run another compile before posting a new link. Normally, there is enough room to get into the pipe no problem. However, the frame of the vent leading to the pipe was originally a func_illusion to prevent players from getting stuck on it. Later, I decided to switch back to regular brushes and used a clip brush on the floor of the vent instead, and clipped the sides to lower clipnodes. This is the cause of the problem you're talking about, and I'm glad you caught it. Normally, I keep a list of things I change before a compile and go through it to test for problems after the compile, but I missed that one. To fix it, I'll simply remove the clip brushes, and make the frame flush with the walls, floor and ceiling. I already double checked it in a test map before running a full compile, and there is no problem once the clip brushes are removed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Cargo Hive: Is there no way for marines to get up to the second level? It seems as though theres a lot of space up there. Wouldn't that be a bit too good for aliens to place chambers and camp, especially healing gorges during a siege?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That was intentional. Gorges are vulnerable when healing the hive, and because there are spawns up in the top space, making it harder for marines to get up there also makes it harder to spawn camp. However, they can still use grenades, and it does nothing to protect against jetpacks. If it is a problem, I can easily add a ladder, but let's see how it plays out first.
And if you're doing a recompile, consider the other things i mentioned, but especially, please raise the comm view. Its WAY too close to ground level.
And have you thought about that extra hallway i explained in the pic?
Edit: removed old download link, and put up to date link in the original post.
There are spawns in the top area of cargo, and making it difficult for marines to get up there also means that it's a little harder for them to spawn camp, which, I think, is a good thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you're doing a recompile, consider the other things i mentioned, but especially, please raise the comm view. Its WAY too close to ground level.
And have you thought about that extra hallway i explained in the pic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I already played around with the height of the comm view and set it to the current height because it's the best way to see as much of the map as possible. If I increase the height, the comm view will be above the roof of power core, and that means that the commander will only be able to see into double through the small piece on top. To prevent that, I'd have to fill in the space above the roof and redesign the pipe that leads to double. It's possible, but it's more time consuming than simply changing the height.
I did consider adding a path by waste at one point, but at the time, I was a bit concerned about making the map complex. It's a good idea, but I'll have to lower leaves and clipnodes first.
Because redesigning parts of the map will take more time, it's best to save that for another beta. I'd also like to see how the map plays before spending a lot of time changing it.
How could a commander possibly support at this scale? A marine can practically jump right off the screen from the center.
<a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10000.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10000_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a> <a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10004_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
( compare with: )
<a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_veil0000.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_veil0000_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a> <a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_nothing0001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_nothing0001_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
There's not even any way to see this node or these hallways, although structures built on top of the hallways will sink down to the inside:
<a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10002.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10002_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a> <a href="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://rtfo.org/~al/share/ss/ns/ns_saturn_b10005_320.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
Anyway, if you want it to work as an ns map, at the very least it needs a workable commander mode.
Well, that can be fixed fairly easily, imo. The top of PowerCore isnt visible from anywhere, right? Just make the actual structure bigger. Have the vents extend out of the side of the new, higher part of the center. Make is so that there isnt actually space, clipped or not, above that structure. Then you can have the comm height as high as you want.
But it definitely is a crippling issue man. I was totally stoked about this map, then i hopped in the CC and cringed. I comm a lot, and i don't think i could handle an entire game comming on this map, with that height.
Oh, and using Powersilo as an example isnt quite the same. There are no spawns up there, and gorges cant heal the hive from there. Yes, its a fun spot to spit/lerk from, and a DC would heal the hive (i think), but thats a far cry from what you have going on in Cargo. Trying to avoid spawncamping is always a good thing, but it seems like its far too big of an advantage for aliens... especially compared to how insanely easy it would be to spawncamp the other hives, especially waste. A simple ladder would retain all the fun, and most of the alien benefits, while giving the marines a fair shot.
And also, the North East Access siege on Cargo should really be dealt with. You set up an awesome siege battle around Cargo, but that all goes to s*** with this siege. You can either take the time to really move around the architecture, OR... you could try a more environmental deterrent. Maybe put a small broken pipe near the ground, and put water covering the are where the siege cannons reach? That'd be a quick fix that could actually work really well.
And one last thing. I posted that pic of a route addition. Thats only a suggestion, im sure it could be done other ways; but just realize that the current layout is pretty much critically flawed in that sense, where one of the ONLY TWO exits/approaches of the middle hive, ONLY leads to another hive. Sure, in Caged, if you go from MS towards Gen, there are no route-branches (a bad thing imo), but at least thats from MS to a hive, not between two hives.
Using a highly scientific method, I raised the commanders view. While taking a look at some ns maps, I noticed that the comm chair was about the same width of a finger. Therefore, I increased the height in Saturn and put my finger on the screen to see if it was about right.
Next, I used my magic eraser to fix some stuff:
First, you can see grey texture covering some of skywalk in the first beta. That is because of sky brush on top of it - more on that later - but it's removed in beta 2.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Same situation in Marine Start:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In the first beta, you couldn't see into the bridges, but I did a little work with the eraser, and poof! There goes the roof!
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Remember the sky brush that caused the grey exterior to be visible in the first couple pics? Well, I used that to my advantage in this next pic:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The room above marine Marine Start isn't playable area and may be distracting for the commander. Therefore, I made the back face of the ceiling brush black, scaled up of course, and put sky brush on top of it so that the black face gets rendered instead of the room below.
In this next pic, you can see that there is a grate above the node in waste now so that the commander can see it.
Also, the hive has been moved towards the front enough so that you can set up two rows of sieges that will reach from the siege point in the hallway.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_5.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Here you can see that the exterior cuts into the view of the power core hallway. I can't really do anything about that, but the commander still has a pretty good view of it.
I also took the small top piece off of the core for now. Although, I may bring it back in another beta.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_6.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Here you can see that there are still a couple things to clean up:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/satb2_7.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I want to raise the view a little more so that the commander has a better view inside the pipe.
Also, you can see that there are still some visibility problems on the pipe side of power core that are caused by raising the comm view, but it's only a small section and I'll try to get that cleaned up in another beta.
So, that's added to the work list for the next beta, but beta 2 will solve several problems.
And yes, I added a ladder to cargo to give poachers easy access to the top area. Poor gorges.... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Still, I like the water idea, and I think that would also be a good solution to the other siege point in waste halls.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And one last thing. I posted that pic of a route addition. Thats only a suggestion, im sure it could be done other ways; but just realize that the current layout is pretty much critically flawed in that sense, where one of the ONLY TWO exits/approaches of the middle hive, ONLY leads to another hive. Sure, in Caged, if you go from MS towards Gen, there are no route-branches (a bad thing imo), but at least thats from MS to a hive, not between two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll try to work it in, but I have to do some optimizing first.
You'll notice that some of the spotlights are flush with the ceiling and some use a 1 unit gap. I'm not really a fan of having two different textures flush with each other because it can look cheesy if truncated and flat, but I took another look at it in game, and the spotlights look ok when they're flush. Therefore, I'll probably go around the map and change all the spotlights so that they're flush. That will lower the number of leaves used, and it'll also lower the ent count because they're currently func_illusions. I'll leave the larger lights for 3D details because they're more noticeable.
Once I get the leaves and clipnodes down a bit, I can start working on an additional path.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The options for the service tunnels are as follows:
1) Leave them as they are and allow players to move through them with the limitation that the commander cannot build inside them and has to drop meds/ammo on either end.
Personally, I don't see the building limitation as a problem because building inside the tunnels would only block traffic. Concerning meds/ammo, marines have a clear line of sight and aliens have to cloak to ambush inside the tunnels. Therefore, marines can simply shoot ahead or chuck a grenade in to make sure it's clear. Then, they can run through and get meds/ammo on the other side, if needed, and the comm can scan ahead to make sure it's clear.
2) The exterior area can be removed so that the space above the tunnels can be filled in, which would allow the commander to see into them.
3) The tunnels can be closed off so that players cannot go into them, but they'd still be able to see everything in the exterior area.
4) The top of the service tunnels can be turned into func_seethroughs, but that'd screw up r_speeds.
I don't consider 2 and 4 to be real options. Therefore, if the way it is currently set up is a problem, I think the best solution would be to simply not allow players to go into the service tunnels.
I'm thinking about trying a regular brush with the null texture on top so that the commander can see into it without ruining the r_speeds or lighting inside the tunnels. Then, a 2nd roof brush in the exact same spot that's a func_seethrough with the service tunnel texture on it instead of null to prevent players from seeing into the tunnels, through the nulled area, when they look out into the exterior area. It might be worth experimenting with this.
And dude, that siege on Cargo needs a-fixin. You explained all the reasons why its tougher for aliens, when i was already explaining that aliens would be ruined. But thats just by the approach and lonely vent. I'd feel guilty as a comm to use that siege, but it would definitely work.
According to the mapping guide, the max wpoly limit should be 700. However, I think it is a mistake to set a fixed number, and some of the maps in ns exceed 900. Instead, it's best to think of a poly limit as a budget. Sometimes it is worth paying a little more for a better product, and sometimes products are simply overpriced. If you work efficiently, you should get good value for the price. The emphasis should not be on a fixed number, but rather on value vs. cost.
Here’s a picture of the exterior while looking up close at the window in communications:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/RspeedsnDesign/saturn_rspeed1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The poly count isn’t bad for the view. However, when you step back a bit:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/RspeedsnDesign/saturn_rspeed2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Even though the player doesn’t see it all, the engine still renders it. Originally, if you stood in the middle of the room, it maxed out at about 1000. To fix that up a little, I added the wall as a vis block. The r_speeds still max out at about 800 when you’re by the window, but they drop like a rock in the rest of the room, which is where most of the action will be.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/RspeedsnDesign/saturn_rspeed4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Forgive the rough look of the vis blocking wall. It wasn’t done at the time I took the picture. However, you can see that by the node, the r_speeds drop to about 500, and if you stand behind the vis wall, in the center of the room, it’ll drop even more. Therefore, the view does deviate a little from the 700 limit, but it’s contained to a small area of the room that won’t see as much action.
In the top right corner, you can also see how I lit the monitors. At 128 x 256, an overlay would chew up more texture memory. Instead, I used a func_illusion that faces the screen rather than the room, and set the render mode to texture and render amount to zero. Then, I used the eyedropper tool in Photoshop to get the most common color in the monitor texture, and used that for the light texture, which is only 16 x 16, in the rad file. However, I've since replaced the func_illusions with entity lighting to lower leaves.
All the windows in the core bridges used to be open, and like Communications before the vis block, the r_speeds maxed out at about 1000. I fixed it by closing some of the windows, which lowered it to about 500.
Here is a picture of the pipe in waste:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/RspeedsnDesign/pipe1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In the red circle, you can see brush fragmentation that’s caused by grouping multiple brushes into one entity. In the green circle, you can see faces repeating because the texture scale isn’t high enough. Because there are so many faces on the cylinders, this gets costly.
To optimize it, I scaled up the texture so that it does not repeat. Simply divide the length by the chop size, which is 240, to find the minimum texture scale that will solve this. Next, I used a separate entity for each cylinder to prevent the brush fragmentation, and since the cylinders are entities, I used null on the ends so that they are not rendered.
Here’s a picture of the optimized pipe:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/RspeedsnDesign/pipe2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
func_seethroughs on the top of the service tunnels would be like Communications and the core bridges before optimization. It would probably hit 1000.
Most of the obvious complaints have already been asked and answered. I'm glad you fixed the bridges into double so the comm can see, and it wouldn't bother me much to have the maint tunnels still invisible to the comm.
About the second access to the north-west side of the octagon--it looks like double is intentionally balanced to have easy access to the south-west and north-east corners of the map, while not providing good access to the north-west or south-east corners. I like that balance. The extra corridor proposed by Stix would break that dynamic and make double much more powerful.
Still, he's right about the northwest corner needing some access to <i>something</i>. I'd suggest adding a pathway along the leftside of the map that bypasses the Hive and rejoins the area later on...for comparison, think of the passageway (P-corridor I think) that runs just north of the southern Hive in NS_Altair. It doesn't really go anywhere new, but it links the right side and left side of the hive without forcing you to walk THROUGH the hive to get there.
Keep up the good work, I am definitely looking forward to adding this map to our classic server and seeing how it plays out when its done.
First up, the siege points by waste and cargo have been fixed up.
In this first pic, you can see that it is no longer possible to build sieges in the far corner of waste halls. The grate in the red circle is a func_illusion with some water below it to prevent structures from being dropped there.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/waste_halls.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
There are also 1 unit high func_nobuilds on the sides of the halls, circled in green, to prevent building there. It's only necessary to have the nobuild along the wall between the halls and the hive to prevent sieging, but to be consistent, I used a nobuild on both sides of each hall.
It was also possible to siege from the area circled in yellow, but I moved the hive a little further away so that it's no longer within range from there.
The grate/water in this pic of northeast access is the same deal as waste halls. It is no longer possible to build there, and the area circled in red has a 1 unit func_nobuild to prevent sieging as well.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/northeast1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The vent between cargo and northeast was no longer important. Therefore, it was removed to free up resources. Moreover, I think the vent might have made the path to double a bit too short, and removing it fixes that.
It used to be possible to siege from the corner of this room between northeast access and loading bay:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/northeast2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
However, the corner piece now fills in that area so that it's no longer possible to siege from there.
This will make loading bay more important, and it should make the gameplay more interesting and balanced.
In the top right corner of this next pic you can see the original version:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/trim.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Notice that there is no black border between the wall and the floor, or between the the walls and the doors in the original version. I tried adding it before, but had problems with leaves. However, after more optimizing, I was able to finish it off.
This may be a little picky, but in this next pic you can see that the black lines in the texture on the bridge exterior, circled in red, now align with the walls:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/bridge.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
It just looked a little truncated before.
The next couple shots show some additional details to areas that were a little plain:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/details1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/details2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In this pic from the power core side, you can see the entrance to the new path is dark, but the dark area is short and you can clearly see light in the area beyond. The dark area should be enough to make it a good ambushing spot for skulks without being hard to find your way through.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/aux1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Here are a couple pics of the new path:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/aux2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/aux3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Like the power core side, the doorway on the distribution side also is also dark and good for ambushing:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/aux4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />