co_strombatik

Soylent_green · June 2007

I'm to busy(or is it lazy?) to make an ns_ map and decided to cobble togheter a little co_ map instead.

The vent system is designed as a skulk highway with lots of exits but few branches. The vent is wide and almost tall enough to stand in; tall enough to bunnyhop in and fly a lerk in without any issues.

The geometry is fairly spartan, this is to avoid all the nasty clip issues that so plague NS. Ramps have to be designed carefully to avoid an invisible stair-step on the topside; you do this by making the ramp a more complex brush that incorporates a horisontal lip a good 16 or so units wide on the top side. Sometimes this will give you unfixable clipping issues(like someone stuck a big 'ol clip brush in the middle of your map). I had to flatten two ramps out to get rid of these issues. Even so I know of two places with a somewhat iffy clipping, but it's way fewer than most maps.

The big concern is that the hive might be to amenable to GL-spamming from the vents or spawn camping. The next largest concern I have is that the CC might be too suceptible to bile bombing.

There are a number of smaller grievances. e.g. Originally r_speeds went over 1000 in a few hotspots. With a few well-placed hint brushes and some uglification of MS the hotspots are gone and it peaks out at 730 or so in a few obscure corners. If the map plays well I might go for standards compliance and use a 256x256 texture with a 240x256 used area and scale it back up to 1:1 to get under 700. I'm not sure how you'd meassure if a map conforms to the average r_speeds below 500 but I'm pretty sure this is true(in fact, I'm not even sure how you could break this rule without breaking the 700 w_poly rule in any realistic scenario). The lighting might is bordering on a bit to colourful in places. The lighting might be a bit to bland, but if I fix that (annoying)people will just crank up the gamma anyway so it might be best to have it fairly homogenous. etc.

Gameplay is completely untested so far(Caveat emptor, hic sunt dracones etc.). I'm interested in feedback on how it plays, bugs and other technical grievances. I don't care much if you think it's ugly; there's plenty of co_fullbrightboxmapoflolsiege_beta1231415384-maps out there that get played plenty because people (for some inexplicable reason)like the gameplay.

layout:
<img src="http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/co_strombatik_layout.png" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

Sample pictures for you TLDR space-bums:
<img src="http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/co_strombatik_01.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/co_strombatik_02.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/co_strombatik_03.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

Map download: <a href="http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/co_strombatik.zip" target="_blank">co_strombatik.zip</a>

VHE map source download(non-pragmatists beware, it's a kludge and not designed to be extensible and modular.): <a href="http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/map%20src.zip" target="_blank">map src.zip</a>
The map source PM-Ware; send me a PM if you use it for something; you don't have to credit me and you can do whatever you like with it.

Kalessin · June 2007

Nice work. It reminds me of the original doom games, particularly the second shot.

Kouji_San · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kalessin @ Jun 6 2007, 09:46 PM) [snapback]1631918[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Nice work. It reminds me of the original doom games, particularly the second shot.
</div>
Same! only the third does it for me.

The lighting is also, different, yet awesome. Love new lighting styles, especially if they work!

Crispy · June 2007

Downloaded it. I'll check it out tomorrow.

Very interesting design. I like the custom textures and the red/blue lighting. All the rooms have their own uniqueness that helps you find where you are. The vent system does seem a little too exhaustive.<ul><li>Interesting lighting, and not too bland for me personally. Entrances to vents are in shadow and walkways are well-lit. Certain areas have nice lighting effects, like the slow strobe in the electric pylon chamber and the dusty light beams in one of the corridors.</li><li>As I said all the rooms are marvellously original and the whole map gives you a distinct impression of 'epicness'. All the architecture is bold and grand, almost to the point of looking oversized, but thankfully the balance is perfect.</li><li>The Hive area as a whole is the biggest unknown in this map. It's difficult to tell how well balanced it would be. On the one hand it allows skulk a very quick escape so they can duck out of incoming fire and flank. On the other hand the Hive area as a whole is cramped and I can see GL spam being a real problem. There is also one spot where you can just hit the Hive from behind a crate quite a way down the corridor. This spot is also within GL range so a bit of a problem. I think the vent exit just behind the Hive is way too close for GL spam, given that it also looks down onto the pit (which I can only presume you put in as a 'safe' spot for egging). The Hive area really needs some special attention paid to it when playtesting, and the same probably goes for the MS.</li><li>The MS is massive! I can see Fades having a ball in here. It's good you've placed some spawnpoints behind the Armoury and not just around the CC as it's quite a distance between the two and my initial thought was that Skulks would make short work of it, meaning resupply would be a pre-requisite and not an option for the Marine player. I still think it's quite far to go. Any Lerks sporing the welders at the CC will have fun picking off Marines as they make their way to the Armoury for health.</li><li>Also you can't actually cover both entrances from the CC because of their elevation. This will make it very easy for Aliens to enter and exit the room to heal up or regenerate their energy for another attack. The other thing about this is that the distance they are from the spawn points and CC will make it very hard to block in retreating Fades. If you're hanging around the doorway waiting to block a Fade the likelihood is the Fade will be able to take you out first with relative impunity since nobody else will be able to see you.</li><li>The vent system is so expansive that it is probably going to serve more as a source of confusion than an aid to get to the MS unnoticed/unwounded. I'd consider putting in some 'peep holes' or grated sections of the vents that look into the areas they bypass just to keep the player informed of their position in the map on a regularish basis. You can't use the map in Combat, so complex vent systems can be counter-intuitive. It's also important to keep tabs on the state of the Marines' advance towards the Hive on a regular basis, and if you don't know where you are this can be tricky.</li><li>The red lights in the vent system also stop Skulk movement dead if you strafe into the wall (as if wall running) near the top of the vent. This doesn't appear to affect Lerks, though, so not a major problem.</li><li>I can't help but feel the vents and alcove behind the CC are going to balance the map highly in Aliens favour, and not only because you can get to a bilebombable position within 2 points (gorge, ability 1; jetpacks take -as you know- 4 points, and grenades wouldn't help much because of the kink in the vent). The vent also allows very easy early parasiting of the whole team as they traverse the vast hall of the MS (notably, in the opposite direction, so spinning round and locating the offending skulk will be difficult). I'd suggest leaving the alcove both for stylistic and gameplay purposes but taking out the vents on either side. You should remember that once Marines do get JPs they will also be able to zip through the vents virtually unnoticed and arrive at the Hive in seconds, with any Skulks and Lerks they encounter on the way virtual instagibs. It'd be better if the Marines had to venture into Alien territory before taking advantage of the vent system (as is the case with Sava, where they have to reach the centre of the map).</li><li>It's a bit of a pity the pylon room won't see a huge amount of play judging by the layout. As it's not on a direct MS-Hive route, the only reason to go in there is to access the vents into MS, but at the same time you can do this from another adjoining vent.</li><li>Here is what I'd do to tweak the vent layout (I haven't marked it on the map but I'd remove the vent exit immediately behind the Hive -so you can move through the vent behind the Hive but not GL spam from on top of it- but leave the one in front unchanged).
<img src="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/Misc/co_strombatik_layout_rework.PNG" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
- Gorges that want to bilebomb will have to come right out into the open
- JPs cannot move to the Hive by using one vent path, they must 'come up for air', meaning they can be preyed upon at this key location.
- Vent at front of MS only exits into pylon room, so should give this room more of a purpose and more traffic.</li></ul>That pretty much covers my initial impressions. I'd love to give this map a blast so let me know if anyone puts it up on a server.

Thaldarin · June 2007

I'll download it when I get home. From the screenies it looks very flat, open and very eye catching.

Soylent_green · June 2007

The number of quotes is too large and borks the quote mechanism. Splitting the post in two.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>The Hive area as a whole is the biggest unknown in this map. It's difficult to tell how well balanced it would be. On the one hand it allows skulk a very quick escape so they can duck out of incoming fire and flank. On the other hand the Hive area as a whole is cramped and I can see GL spam being a real problem. There is also one spot where you can just hit the Hive from behind a crate quite a way down the corridor. This spot is also within GL range so a bit of a problem. I think the vent exit just behind the Hive is way too close for GL spam, given that it also looks down onto the pit (which I can only presume you put in as a 'safe' spot for egging). The Hive area really needs some special attention paid to it when playtesting, and the same probably goes for the MS.</div>

In any sufficiently complex problem it's almost never the things you expect that turn out to be the problem. Often the most time efficient way to optimize is to address only the obvious concerns and be responsive to testing and iteratively hone in one a better design rather than to try to anticipate and preempt every problem. There are plenty of things which can prove fatal for the hive design and there is plenty of room for changes without major performance concerns.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>The MS is massive! I can see Fades having a ball in here.</div>

Fades love tall, wide enough for unobstructed movement and with some large obstacle(s) to hide behind. I believe MS might be long enough and open enough to prevent fades from winning the game too easily.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>It's good you've placed some spawnpoints behind the Armoury and not just around the CC as it's quite a distance between the two and my initial thought was that Skulks would make short work of it, meaning resupply would be a pre-requisite and not an option for the Marine player. I still think it's quite far to go. Any Lerks sporing the welders at the CC will have fun picking off Marines as they make their way to the Armoury for health. Also you can't actually cover both entrances from the CC because of their elevation. This will make it very easy for Aliens to enter and exit the room to heal up or regenerate their energy for another attack.</div>

By design. Stop camping the CC and move to intercept escaping aliens/vent campers. Marines should not be able to go into "oh ****"-mode and weld the CC to full without some offense. Marines are far to often subjected to 10 minutes of utter domination before their CC goes down due to a coincidence of having 3 onos arriving simultaneously at MS or some other happenstance like it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>The other thing about this is that the distance they are from the spawn points and CC will make it very hard to block in retreating Fades. If you're hanging around the doorway waiting to block a Fade the likelihood is the Fade will be able to take you out first with relative impunity since nobody else will be able to see you.</div>

That might be true for the closest entrance due to those pillars, the other entrance is relatively plain view and killing marines guarding it from the upper floor will generate attention. Aliens with the ambition of killing the CC will have to move in and may be quite susceptible to being chased down by JPs due to the openeness of the room.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>The vent system is so expansive that it is probably going to serve more as a source of confusion than an aid to get to the MS unnoticed/unwounded.</div>

I'm not sure; I don't think I can reliably judge this. There are a couple of info_locs, there are two blue lit fan-rooms and there are some environmental sounds to clue you in on general location. I think it might be enough after you've traversed the vents a couple of times.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>I'd consider putting in some 'peep holes' or grated sections of the vents that look into the areas they bypass just to keep the player informed of their position in the map on a regularish basis. You can't use the map in Combat, so complex vent systems can be counter-intuitive. It's also important to keep tabs on the state of the Marines' advance towards the Hive on a regular basis, and if you don't know where you are this can be tricky.</div>

There are enough clues to infer by sound and SoF where the marines are. I don't nescessarily think the map should be aimed at the hayseeds who flat out refuse to use their spatial cognition, hearing and memory. Some level of complexity and learning I consider essential to a well balanced map.

What I consider a valid concern is if you don't belong to the above mentioned group of people and you're still confused after playing a few rounds on the map.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>The red lights in the vent system also stop Skulk movement dead if you strafe into the wall (as if wall running) near the top of the vent. This doesn't appear to affect Lerks, though, so not a major problem.</div>

Unless I've made shome mishtake they're all func_illusionary.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>...you can get to a bilebombable position within 2 points (gorge, ability 1; jetpacks take -as you know- 4 points, and grenades wouldn't help much because of the kink in the vent). The vent also allows very easy early parasiting of the whole team as they traverse the vast hall of the MS (notably, in the opposite direction, so spinning round and locating the offending skulk will be difficult).</div>

The vents are fairly straight into the wall, from a proper location you ought to be able to snipe gorges, skulks and lerks quite easily. The wall isn't that tall and can be mine climbed. I believe one marine is enough to boost you up to the vent. It makes hand grenades(1 point) an upgrade you might actually consider taking. No matter how dominant the aliens tend to have a hard enough time taking out the CC without spawncamping the hell out of the marine team and causing a lame quit(that will subsequently be blamed for the loss).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>I'd suggest leaving the alcove both for stylistic and gameplay purposes but taking out the vents on either side. You should remember that once Marines do get JPs they will also be able to zip through the vents virtually unnoticed and arrive at the Hive in seconds, with any Skulks and Lerks they encounter on the way virtual instagibs.</div>

I'm banking on the marines running out of fuel and having to rest before actually getting to the hive, frequent ambush points around corners and vent side entrances and the abillity to leap/fly/bunnyhop/blink from side to side and dodge a significant amount of bullets while closing the distance. This needs to be tested.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>It'd be better if the Marines had to venture into Alien territory before taking advantage of the vent system (as is the case with Sava, where they have to reach the centre of the map).</div>

Assuming the vent is more friendly to fades than JPs by the time they coexist, why is this true?

Soylent_green · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>It's a bit of a pity the pylon room won't see a huge amount of play judging by the layout. As it's not on a direct MS-Hive route, the only reason to go in there is to access the vents into MS, but at the same time you can do this from another adjoining vent.</div>

Its intended function is to provide a chance to retreat from or side-step the opposing team. It's the ugliest room in the map and I don't want it to be a major focus point.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>- Gorges that want to bilebomb will have to come right out into the open
- JPs cannot move to the Hive by using one vent path, they must 'come up for air', meaning they can be preyed upon at this key location.
- Vent at front of MS only exits into pylon room, so should give this room more of a purpose and more traffic.</div>

I'm not sure if these are problems yet.(Preferably I want JPs moving through the vents, gorges biling the CC, and the pylon room to not be a focus point, I just don't want it to be <i>the strategy</i> or uncounterable).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'>That pretty much covers my initial impressions. I'd love to give this map a blast so let me know if anyone puts it up on a server.</div>

Thank you. I'll have your insights in mind if I get a chance to look at the map in action and get player feedback.

woody · June 2007

I agree on the CC needing relocated with more cover as well as another Armoury. Marines dont stand a chance with the current layout and being the hive is only like 3 1/2 rooms away, lerks & fades rule. Ive played a few rounds with 8v8 and its total alien karnage. On a bright note I also waypointed it for my bot server and 6v24 with the bots on full boost makes for some great karnage lol

Suggest you try reducing the top half of the map and expand the unreachable outside area into a marine stronghold with access from the bottom side and 1 vents. Maps is very grand but also very boring.

suggestions are like aholes ...everyone has them <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />

Soylent_green · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(woody @ Jun 8 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1632335[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>suggestions are like aholes ...everyone has them <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /></div>

I've got thick skin, I appreciate honesty and pragmatism far more than sugar coating.

Do you think swapping the CC with the east-most armory; sealing up the vent right next to it, removing the pillar closest the CC and adding a freebie observatory help make MS enough marine friendly?

Were the ledge and vents close to the current location of the CC too useful for spore spaming/biling?

Was there any major problems with the large vent system?

What room would you say was the major focus of combat?

Did the south part of the map see much use?

Did the room with pylons see use as an escape route?

Crispy · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent_green @ Jun 8 2007, 07:39 AM) [snapback]1632342[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've got thick skin, I appreciate honesty and pragmatism far more than sugar coating.
</div>/xmenu?

Soylent_green · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 8 2007, 01:45 AM) [snapback]1632344[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
/xmenu?
</div>

que?

Crispy · June 2007

'Thickened skin' is an upgrade on the /xmenu addon for NS Combat. But I don't want to tangenterise your thread any further so, back on topic:

Woody, which server did you play it on, and is it likely to stay up there for long?

Soylent_green · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 8 2007, 03:19 AM) [snapback]1632355[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
'Thickened skin' is an upgrade on the /xmenu addon for NS Combat. But I don't want to tangenterise your thread any further so, back on topic:

Woody, which server did you play it on, and is it likely to stay up there for long?
</div>

Probably at my request for some gameplay testing in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=4618529615028240384&showtopic=101377" target="_blank">Maps wanted</a> thread. Even if it was in the map cycle, with that many maps it would be played about once in a fortnight <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />.

Soylent_green · June 2007

<b>Important</b>: .res file had an error, wrong extension on one of the files. This has been fixed now. I'm not sure if it would prevent someone from joining the server or cause a missing model in the ready room or what exactly it would do; but just to be safe download the new version if you're going to have this in your map cycle.

edit: Now this is interesting; I pestered a friend of mine to download NS and see if he could join a server with or without my map installed and it turns out that with the old .res file on the server neither would allow him to connect.

edit: Thank you woody for notifying me about the broken download link.

I think I'm going to have to set up a dedicated server over the weekend and see if I can't attract enough players to get a few good rounds going so I can decide what needs to go, what needs to be fixed and what needs to stay.

Soylent_green · June 2007

I was playing around with creating a dedicated server and figured out how to use download 'redirection'.

You can use this if you'd like: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>sv_downloadurl "http://hem.bredband.net/soylent/co_strombatik/leech/"</div> and it should download quickly in the Europe-ish area.

carioca · June 2007

look too bright in the alien place and no cover.
the hive remind a siege map to empty.

open areas look a jet friendly fight.

if the ceiling is lower the onos could jump and hit the jets.

the texture work is nice, fine and great work, isnt boring and new, just remind to put some hallways that increase experience in details because are small and in corners could increase the surprise in the next movement. ambush spots could work nice.

Soylent_green · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(carioca @ Jun 10 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]1632804[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>look too bright in the alien place and no cover. the hive remind a siege map to empty.</div>

Point taken.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(carioca @ Jun 10 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]1632804[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>open areas look a jet friendly fight.</div>

And fade friendly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(carioca @ Jun 10 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]1632804[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>if the ceiling is lower the onos could jump and hit the jets.</div>

Jet packs are the <i>counter</i> to onos. Fades, focus, leap and webs are the counters to jet packs and do a good job of it already.

Crispy · June 2007

It should be fine anyway, the corridors closer to the Hive have lower ceilings from what I remember.

co_strombatik

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