Your opinion: pressure on spawns or pressure on RTs

the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
edited May 2007 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Which is more important?</div>Again, this is strategy opinion. Highly subjective stuff and as such...

<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Rules<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> (*sigh* sadly I don't trust common sense on these boards):<ul><li>Stay on topic</li><li>Please list examples and keep the distinction between theory and actual gameplay (perhaps also a distinction between public play and competitive, or small 6v6 servers and larger 15v15 servers)</li></ul>Now take the different distinctions and scenerios in your mind and weigh the priorities. Remember, you can't win the game unless you take the enemies hives/IPs down (primary objective), and you can't easily do that without resouces (secondary objective).

Treat this topic as an open-ended strategic priority discussion.
«1

Comments

  • RadixRadix Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?&#33; Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation
    Node pressure is essential, spawn pressure is more of an opportunistic thing (You see aliens have a long spawn queue and you have people near their hive, etc). It's always harder for the opposing team to defend a location they need to travel to.
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    What about gorge rushes though? That's not exactly opportunistic is it?
  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation
    Actually I'd say it is. A "gorge rush" or any rush at all is something you decide to do under certain circumstances. Either you believe they are weak, having pushed to many players onto the map too early, you believe they are stronger than you in a prolonged game and thus decide to gamble early on for a better chance to win, or you spot MS and notice they have their backs turned and you go in. Either way it's a gambit and something that should only be done if the right opportunity present itself.

    RT pressure on the other hand is something that is required to win a game. You could call it a "hygiene factor" in competetive gaming as the team that doesn't immediately is at a great disadvantage. RT pressure IS the game.

    Of course you could say the same thing for spawn pressure, in the sense that two great teams would always be scouting for an opportunity to end the game by taking out the other base, or gaining an advantage by delaying reinforcements by attacking the spawn. However this is not the game in practice as of now. It used to be like this to some extent a few versions back though.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    you should be at the place where the enemies arent at so you get to control the speed of the game

    "i'm at your base, killing your dudes"
  • EmanonEmanon Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
    Thread lost all creditability when you mentioned gorge rush. Any semi decent comm should be able to combat that with no problem even on 16vs16 servers.
  • KainTSAKainTSA Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Members, Constellation
    Technically, you can win the game without taking out RTs, but you can't without taking out base. Realistically, you probably aren't going to win without doing both.

    The importance of a base hit versus node hit depends a whole lot on how far the game has progressed. Early node takedowns are crucial (especially killing alien's). However, rines rushing the hive on a chamber takedown or aliens rushing on an AA takedown can have longer lasting effects. In the middle of a major battle, taking down the arms lab can also be very helpful.

    The biggest use for a rush on marine base is to force a beacon. As long as the alien team is prepared for it, they have a good chance of getting a meat grinder going on whatever PG the marines are trying to hold.
  • HassaanHassaan Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 33976Members
  • DarkaDarka Join Date: 2005-08-03 Member: 57466Members
    pressuring spawn is much harder than pressuring rt's
    only when you know that there will be little resistance should you attack spawn
    if marines are taking out a hive it is necessary for a couple of aliens to attack MS
    it distracts them or allows you to take out AA, obs, AL, proto...
  • FREIGHT_TRAINFREIGHT_TRAIN Join Date: 2007-01-08 Member: 59525Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1629182:date=May 25 2007, 12:58 PM:name=Emanon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Emanon @ May 25 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]1629182[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Thread lost all creditability when you mentioned gorge rush. Any semi decent comm should be able to combat that with no problem even on 16vs16 servers.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But what about 2v2 EHHHHHHHHHH?
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1629186:date=May 25 2007, 09:31 AM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ May 25 2007, 09:31 AM) [snapback]1629186[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The importance of a base hit versus node hit depends a whole lot on how far the game has progressed. Early node takedowns are crucial (especially killing alien's). However, rines rushing the hive on a chamber takedown or aliens rushing on an AA takedown can have longer lasting effects. In the middle of a major battle, taking down the arms lab can also be very helpful.

    The biggest use for a rush on marine base is to force a beacon. As long as the alien team is prepared for it, they have a good chance of getting a meat grinder going on whatever PG the marines are trying to hold.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Good points. Ok, so what are the indicators of the game's progress that players should look for. Scenerios?
  • MamboKingMamboKing Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27169Members
    edited May 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1629306:date=May 25 2007, 08:23 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 25 2007, 08:23 PM) [snapback]1629306[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Good points. Ok, so what are the indicators of the game's progress that players should look for. Scenerios?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    When the rines don't have phase gates up yet is a very good time to hit their spawn. edit:If the marines have to beacon it becomes a lot easier for the aliens to setup ambushes, hit nodes, drop nodes, and just slows the marine team down.
  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation
    Indeed. This can also be used to control the pace of the game, as tomekki said. An example would be marines setting up a pg and nodes in double on veil, you could then send your four or so skulks to hit nodes close to marine start (while the lerk and fade hangs around double). As marines in double gather up to push somewhere you send your skulks from the nodes to the base and force a beacon. The table is reset, but you have been chewing nodes instead of waiting outside double and being useless.
  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1629205:date=May 25 2007, 10:44 AM:name=Hassaan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hassaan @ May 25 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]1629205[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    False bacon dude
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    False beacons only work if the aliens care about dying.

    Generally, the obs should only be killed first if you're trying to destroy MS. Otherwise it is much more useful to kill one or two buidings, usually the armory, armslab, or phasegate, and get out while the beacon goes off.

    If you can account for nearly every marine and they're in a position where they can't get back to base quickly, hit base.

    If the marines have a phasegate up somewhere and they don't have it covered in mines, attack base, destroy the phasegate and obs (after the beacon goes off), haul ###### to the field phasegate and take it out.

    If the marines are sieging your second hive, have one skulk kill nodes. This can effectively end the siege and destroy the marines capability to prototech.
  • tourstours Join Date: 2007-04-22 Member: 60690Members
    edited May 2007
    for marines you should only ever attack a hive with the intent to kill it if you have enouch tech to be able to kill the hive and not lose base. the tech needed to kill a hive differs depending on # of hives, lifeforms, upgrades.

    aliens should always have atleast one skulk on RTs. for the most part aliens will be defending, but when it becomes clear that the aliens will lose something(an RT, a hive, chambers) then they should switch to offense and destroy either all the marine RTs, the AA, or the base while the marines are busy killing your stuff. while you will still lose your stuff you will atleast get something in return. alot of the mechanics of chess can be applied here.

    also if the marines have no external phasegate and marines are moving out of MS to go set one up the aliens should attack MS once they are gone. this will force the marines to come back to base and fend off the aliens instead of setting up an external pg.
  • SnipeStarSnipeStar Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10341Members
    well, theoretically, if the enemy is unable to leave their spawn, then they cant go out and cap nodes...

    but really the key is balance. parts of your team are needed to keep pressure on the nodes to keep your team's res income good, as well as interfere with the opposing team's res flow. and it is equally important to keep pressure on the enemy's spawn, as mentioned, to inhibit their ability to cap nodes, take away your team's nodes, and harass your own team's spawn.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    Because we've been asked for a binary answer (either spawn or RTs) I'm going to say RTs.

    Yeah there's plenty of exceptions, as mentioned above, but the number one reason that games are won or lost is due to res control.

    There's been games we should have won, but didn't because we only had 2 nodes. There's been games where the other team ignores the nodes and pushes us into a corner, just to have a backlash from our upgraded team that drives them all the way to their base and keeps them there. Res is the key player that really defines who wins.

    I should also point out that trying to box the other team into spawn only really works when there's severe skill or tech balances. I mean, they spawn there, thus they should have numerical advantage from, oh I don't know, spawning there while you run all the way back? It's one of those end-game situationals that only works when there's a clear advantage so you can hold it.
  • SnipeStarSnipeStar Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10341Members
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    If marines have relocated a well coordinated base rush can end the game. No beacon. If it's REALLY coordinated, you can have a group of guys chew down the base while a few others spread out and hit every single one of their RTs. So that when all the marines are RUNNING back to their base (no beacon) their entire RT network is going down. Once it goes down all you have to do is pressure nodes for the rest of the game and it's pretty much set.
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    Unless that marine team is well practiced with relocations of course. A well choosen reloc with good teamwork... if you DON'T find them early and rush hard then you'll usually loose.

    I asked for this topic to be made into a poll twice by now. I don't know <i>why</i> we can't make polls when pHpBB is capable of doing it... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    what is there to make a poll about? you dont make a poll with your team in-game whether to hit nodes or base. use this as a sort of guideline: always eat res, and rush base when the situation allows/demands it
  • RadixRadix Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
    If the enemy has no rts, their base is dead already.

    If the enemy has no base, their res is gone because they've died already.

    Pressuring nodes is much easier than pressuring a spawn.

    Node pressure has more checkpoints - each time you kill a node, you gain permanent progress.

    Since the outcome is the same, but one is easier than the other, RT pressure is more important.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    Well, as a matter of pacing, an enemy team can compete with you in terms of taking nodes/defending nodes, but if they don't have any marines in MS they won't compete with you in taking down the spawn. That being said, if they do have any marines nearby MS is much easier to defend then node locations.
  • KainTSAKainTSA Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Members, Constellation
    Well bacon is the big reason why the game doesn't give marines the shaft when it comes to spawn rushes, since rine IPs go down a whoooole lot easier than an alien hive.

    One thing to keep in mind about taking out RTs is the fact that it does so much more damage to aliens. Having a community res pool means the RTs cost marines 15 res. For aliens, if you don't have a gorge nearby with the required res, an RT essentially costs 25 to drop.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Kill nodes and aliens always lose. I can't stress enough the importance of node destruction.
  • MrBenMrBen ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
    Yes you can. If you over commit your manpower on killing nodes and at the expense of capping your own resources then you'll find yourself underteched and having to assign your marines to begin capping nodes when you should be pressing the hive. I've seen it a million times.
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?&#33; Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation
    In 3.1, aliens could limp along until the second hive then possibly make a comeback. In 3.2 it's a lot harder since your opponents are almost guaranteed JPs by then. For the most part, early game RT pressure by marines is a delaying tactic to buy time to tech up for the second hive push - if marines have enough early RTs and aliens do a poor job of chewing res, they can still take that second hive down.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Marines win if they trade equal amounts of nodes with aliens.
  • SnipeStarSnipeStar Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10341Members
    as i said before, balance is the key

    if you spend all of your time chomping RTs, not only are you presenting yourself as an easy target for the other team, but you are allowing them to leave their spawn and gain territory/other nodes, which doesnt gain you very much.

    if you keep them distracted at their spawn, they cant go out and capture nodes until they deal with you. even though, yes, you are inevitably bound to die due to the overwhelming numerical advantage- lets say you stay alive for a mere 60 seconds just distracting them at their base- in that small time frame 1 - 2 nodes can very easily/realistically go up in that time (not to mention that while this is happening their nodes can be attacked without being defended)

    my point is that, despite the overwhelming and disturbing trend i see that people are swearing node pressure to be more important than spawn pressure, both are equally important. one tactic over the other will not gaurantee you the game-- however, balanced pressure on both will.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    I've won with zero spawn pressure before. It's just not worth it when there is a 3 second spawn invulnerability on many servers. If you can't spawn camp, ther eis no point in pressuring spawn.

    Listen, if you kill ALL of their nodes within the first 3 minutes. I don't care what else the aliens are doing, but unless they manage to destory MS, you've won.

    Nodes are more precious than ANYTHING else for aliens. They will drop everything to defend their nodes. Some of them may try to force a beacon instead, but that's why you have mines and a comm that can shoot.

    Whatever you've gotta do, the tprice is worth it to destroy lots and lots of nodes...unless the price is your entire base.
Sign In or Register to comment.