Quick question, what is NS2s playerbase goal?

KarrdKarrd Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
Becuase it would be really useful to a number of conversations on this forum, what type of playerbase is UWE hoping for and/or expecting for NS2?

First line, (such as halo, half life, madden, with millions of copies sold)
Mainstream, (with hundreds of thousands of copies sold and tens of thousands of active players)
Large, (with tens of thousands of copies sold, a few thousand active players)
Small, (a lot of copies sold but only a thousand or two active players)
Community, (basically NS as it is, hundreds of active players)
Niche, (games such as ricochet, with usually under a hundred active players)

[By active players I mean the number you would expect on during any given moment.]

You don't have to use those definitions, but what are you going for? What are you expecting?


Also, I'd like to know what the community thinks about this. I'm sure there are alot of people who might not like the idea of NS going mainstream. When the playerbase size changes, the way the game feels can change.

Comments

  • Moving_Target0Moving_Target0 Join Date: 2006-12-21 Member: 59174Members
    I'd be fine with small or large. Mainstream? Things get too competitive, too many idiots (plus the ones we already had), etc.....
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    First Line, but that's probably wishful thinking. Seriously, I wish UWE all the players they can grab. Sure there are annoyances that come with a large playerbase but there're also that many more cool people playing and as long as you can foster a community you're all set.
  • GaidanGaidan Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58132Members
    My personal goal in coming to this form is to help UWE gain as much money as it possibly can so they can make games for the rest of their life. This helps me in two ways, one they're amazing and amazing makes me smile. Two i'm a writer and NS gives me some nice conversations to pluck into my work. =D

    So, i'll say First Line games
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    If Natural Selection, which was released for free, can't get anywhere near first line, it's wishful thinking to think that a game people have to pay for is somehow going to do anywhere near that well. I'd look more to Red Orchestra or The Ship for examples of nice games with limited player bases.
  • GaidanGaidan Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58132Members
    Natural Selection is a mod which was under advertised, under rated, and had no quick gameplay modes when it first came out. It's also so old that at this point there are very few people that could get into the game as is. I also believe NS had a sort of stigma about it which flowed with the idea of "o well there's no gun recoil so there's no real way to show skill in that game."
  • KarrdKarrd Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
    To become a real first line game requires massive amounts of support, in every manner: financial, advertising, customer, technical etc. so I don't think that's a real option for NS2. That doesn't mean NS2 can't become a big game, especially compared to what it is right now. The reason I brought this topic up was primarily to find out what UWE was going for, becuase the size of a playerbase has some very large impacts on a game (take a look at Halo2 for example).

    I'd personally like to see it at least become a "small" game, even if it would mean having to deal with the problems associated with it. Reaching for "Large" size would be even better, but that requires a much more significant initial investment in support for the game.
  • ChocolateChocolate The Team Mascot Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58123Members
    I think NS2 would reach maybe Community or Small size on average, maybe reaching Large for awaile. I;ve always thought of NS as a small game separate from the mainstream. It's not as simple as halo to play, it requires strategy and planning (atleast for NS, less so CO). Because of its depth, it would turn off alot of people (hey, lots of people are lazy to learn a new game) and would reduce the player base, which isn't a bad thing (people who have the patience to learn a game would generally be more mature players than those who don't have that patience).

    I'd easily be happy if it is in the Community size but I would also be saddened because of the potential the game has.

    Just my 2 res... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    Any idea how much other steam published products have sold? Defcon for example.
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    Depends entirely on how good the game will be, it could potentially be large if it's quality enough. Savage (the game) got limited success but it also had alot of crappy elements.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    NS has gone from Community through to Large, and back down to Community again. Each of the upward transitions trigged massive and sweeping changes in the game as the previous majority became dwarfed by the new incoming majority, overriding any previous consensus on what "the players" wanted.

    While I want NS2 to be successful in the long term, I would prefer if it took the path of long slow growth to a small-large size, to ease the rate of any such changes. I would hate to see the change from NS2 1.x to 2.x be as great as it was for NS1. Both versions were great, it's just that they were very different games.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1624509:date=May 2 2007, 03:52 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ May 2 2007, 03:52 PM) [snapback]1624509[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Any idea how much other steam published products have sold? Defcon for example.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In talk that Introversion gave at this year's GDC they said they sold 30,000 copies in the first month and they implied that the sales have been fairly steady -- what I'd expect for an indie game that will get most of its marketing from word-of-mouth.

    We don't really have any idea of how NS2 will sell since this is new territory and information on similar game's sales is not generally available. The reality is that we need to sell quite a few copies to make back the cost of development of NS2 and the Natural Selection franchise, but we feel pretty confident that will happen.

    Max
  • KarrdKarrd Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
    Is that your way of saying you don't really have a goal in mind at this point in time?



    Again, the reason why I ask is that depending on the size of the game, different things need to be considered. If the game is the size of NS right now is, then it can pretty much take care of many things by itself (such as cheaters, community support, etc.). When you get to larger sizes though, new issues need to be dealt with, such as not only banning cheaters but actively countering them, not only providing community sites but also sorting through them so they don't become a mess of trolls and flamewars. Much more attention ends up being needed on details, becuase whereas 1 glitch now can be an annoyance, if 40,000 people experience that glitch it can be blown far out of proportion. Subtle things such as how easy it is to set up a server can have a large impact on the entire playerbase. I'm having a little difficulty exactly describing it, but I'm hoping you get my point.


    <i>I have things that need doing, but I should be back later. Hopefully with a better way of explaining it.</i>
  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
    edited May 2007
    I think they could sell to like 150K copies (approximately 5% of the 3mil one-month Steam gamer market) if they fixed the issues I outline here (approximated out of the pop from a LAN center/other gamers I know):

    I know a lot of people from the LAN center that I used to work at (and different roomdogs) who tried NS. Of the twenty or so people, the guy who most liked it was also the most casual gamer of the twenty (at least in not taking it seriously. He spent a lot of time gaming, but never really took it seriously [never got angry or frustrated--he'd just chuckle lol).
    ----------------------------- //part about the guy who really liked it.
    The guy played on custom servers (he was the only guy who of the twenty that really tried the custom servers). He enjoyed the custom servers, b/c there was a lot of time for goofing around in them. You could build things and hop around..and phase through and get uber weapons quickly. Also, the atmosphere and the gamers were noobs like him. If you've ever looked into those custom servers, about 50% of the people who play on them aren't that great. So either they're new to the game, or...i guess they just can't get better.

    -----------------// part about the other 20.
    The other twenty people who tried it, never really tried custom b/c it was kinda 'ridiculous'. It wasn't even combat! You got uber weapons..and the opponents got uber weapons. They weren't even the same! And oftentimes, noobs gets pwned if both teams have uber weapons @ the same time, b/c they dont know how to use the 'uber' powers given them.

    The other twenty people tried combat and regular NS. Combat was simple, but very boring. No depth and yet, YET, it still took a lot of skill to play. You needed high sensitivity to aim properly (and these were CS, DoD, MoH guys! Low Sens, big mousepad!). They didn't have that much fun in combat for lots of reasons:

    --not a large community online to play against,
    --they were getting rocked b/c they were noobs, and NS is a lot about knowledge at the basic levels. Not aim. Though, aim at higher levels of gameplay is much more important that knowledge [as everyone has the same tier of knowledge after...a while].
    --they didn't know which upgrades to get,
    --they didn't know what sensitivity was good for the game and got frustrated (and these are ALL people who played competitively for CS, DoD and MoH (AND Halo & Halo2 & lots of other games such as warcraft and World of Warcraft [powerlvl'ing to be one of the first 60's and stuff like that]).
    --Huge aliens that ate them...or swiped them to death...or bit them or structures that they couldn't get past. Or marines with huge f'ing guns that just pwned them. They really hated things that just totally 'pwned' them, b/c they didn't understand it. They didn't like not being on an equal footing.
    --The outdated engine and FPS. Lagorama in the early days. UT was prettier as were a lot of other FPS's.
    --All twenty who later quit the game after less than 10-20hrs of playtime were all very frustrated because of the amount of

    A) Confusing map space and twisting corriders and stuff. They would literally get lost and not be able to find their way back unless they knew about the map button... (knowledge)

    B) The extraordinary learning curves of just WTH to do. It's worse than playing chess (and few have that kind of patience [at least to get -good- at it]). (knowledge)

    C) Things that would just annihilate them, yet they didn't seem capable of annihilating anything themselves. They would go alien (skulk) and die everytime--even if they BH'd around, b/c they other team was roving around in packs and shooting -everything-. They would go marine and get swiped to death, OC'd to death, eaten to death, gored to death, spored to death OMG...they'd get angry! Of course, this situation wasn't what happened everytime, but they only remembered them getting WTH PWNED by people who weren't even really GOOD at video gaming. They'd get WTH PWNED by video game noobs that just had the knowledge of what to do. Knowledge that took too long for their patience level to obtain. Not to mention the mind's selective memory for only those occurences that are VERY fun or VERY WTH-messed-up. So as a result, they only remembered themselves getting WTH-pwned and people dont like that very much unless they're masochistic biznatches.

    D) Not 'realistic', though those same people played WoW--so I dont take that complaint too too seriously LOL.

    E) None of their friends played it, so why play it?

    ------------------// part about the 20 people over.

    If UW can fix what I outlined above as the 20+ people's top peeves about the game (even if they dont change teh gameplay at all), they will sell so many copies and make so much money that it will boggle their minds.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I also think, that if you separate gameplay sorting through how fast the 'tech' progresses, then this will enable people to get some sort of idea of whether this particular session of gaming that they're joining into is FAST&FURIOUS, Fast, Paced, Slow, or Strategic. =D. Or any derivative of the suggestion above.
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • KarrdKarrd Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
    Most of what you just mentioned could be solved simply by creating a much much better way to teach new players the game, as is being discussed elsewhere.
  • glimmermanglimmerman Join Date: 2004-04-29 Member: 28300Members, Constellation
    I'm with this guy. A better manual would do wonders.
  • KarrdKarrd Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
    Actually, I wasn't just talking about a better manual. Most of what I'm thinking of is pointed out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=3622777936565421568&showtopic=101325" target="_blank"> Here </a>. The short version: We need to create a <b>Complete</b> system for teaching new players, that at minimum means a better manual, a training mode of some type and a helpfiles system that can be reached while playing the game and we need to make all of this <b>Easy</b>. Meaning that a New player doesn't even have to look for it, it should just be right there waiting for them.

    I'll stop now before I ramble on about fixing that again.

    Anyways, when is a developer going to actually reply to the purpose of this topic? Even a "We haven't settled on one yet" would be nice.
  • J!J! NS2 Artist Join Date: 2004-11-14 Member: 32788Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    edited May 2007
    Max has already replied:

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't really have any idea of how NS2 will sell since this is new territory and information on similar game's sales is not generally available.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think that fairly well translates into "We haven't settled on one yet". As for your other concerns, such as a player manual and the like, rest assured we are aware of them and they are under control.
  • KarrdKarrd Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
    Thank you. Actually, I took that as a statement that you didn't know what you were going to get, not one about what you were <b>trying</b> to get.
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    If this game had a commercial it would sell like hotcakes. Natural-Selection is so unique and well developed that I don't doubt its potential to sell. It's only limited by how many people know of it.
  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
    And how well it's explained, so that people understand why they're being eaten by elephants...
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1626505:date=May 13 2007, 12:33 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ May 13 2007, 12:33 PM) [snapback]1626505[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    If this game had a commercial it would sell like hotcakes. Natural-Selection is so unique and well developed that I don't doubt its potential to sell. It's only limited by how many people know of it.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I dunno what your definition of "hotcakes" is, but it had better be some number lower than the number of people playing now. Because it's impossible to argue a free game would have anything but a smaller number of players if you were charging for it, unless you somehow magically advertised it <i>so well</i> that you were able to overcome the price and somehow attract even more people.
  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
    But NS has been around for such a long time, many of the people who used to play it no longer play it. That is not to say, however, that they wouldn't buy NS2 to try out its next-gen cousin =D.
  • BonesXBonesX Join Date: 2007-02-04 Member: 59883Members, Constellation
    In some ways, I feel, that NS1 was a giant playtest. As a free mod the developers had a virtually unlimited group to help work out the basic bugs as well as come up with ideas for addons. Look at how the NS community has modded the mod! The players that actively remain (in my expirence) tend to be the ones that enjoy a slighty more complicated gameplay. Although, this is not neccesarily true. Look at games like Starcraft, WoW, or just about anything else. You have several "classes" of character to play all with different abilitys and skills. The same 20 people that quit NS because they were getting "owned" probably started out in WoW the same way due to a lack of knowledge. However, they expected it to some degree in WoW becouse of their low level. However, they probably didnt think of NS having the same type of learning curve. "It's just a FPS... how complicated can it be?" If we can convince the general public that has embraced WoW or Guildwars or Starcraft to understand that different classes ar different not better the game will be much better recieved.

    In NS you can change your class and thus your role at a moments notice due to the needs of your team. The question is- can the general public accoustom themselves to playing for a team rather than on one? Even now I find that the groups I play with tend to play the Kahraa in groups of several types to play their skills off of each other. THis is how it should be because it is a TEAM game. Even now in games like BF1942 (I havent tried the new one yet) or Halo2; while you are on a team it seems like the co-ordinated attacks do not occure. Each player is attempting to do his own thing and it is the players with the best reflexes that tend to run the maps. I have only rarely seen any great level of coordination on these games but find it daily on just about any NS server I join.

    I feel that NS has the ability to reach Major level at least for a while. I also foresee a large following oversees (if it is marketed there) due to players in other places than America having a larger willingness to follow a learning curve and then stick with the game.

    I personally am one of those so called "casual" gamers and enjoy NS partly due to the fact that having the knowledge from gameplay I can do quite well and still not have to devote hours and hours to honing my skills. Thus I can balance my gametime with having (and keeping) a wife and 2 kids. My current clan contains quite a mix of players and I like it that way. THe ages range from 16 to 65 with both men and women players. If the "hard core" gamers dont like getting owned by me... they better start asking questions fast. On our servers most of the clan is willing to answer questions and do on a regular basis.

    As for helping newbs to learn...just put up some dedicated learning servers perhaps with bots on the Kahraa since they are more complicated and let em have at it. I started on the 2 marine trainer servers and found that the community was a) very willing to answer questions about thing here more readily than on the regular servers and b) tended to squelch very quickly anyone who started asking newb questions on such servers. It was after all a training server. Seems like a simple enough solution to continue such servers into NS2.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    edited July 2007
    There needs to be a single player mode.

    aka a big long tutorial that is entertaining.
  • broadbandbroadband Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33013Members
    less of you guys, more of me.
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