What ESRB rating are we aiming for here?
Quaunaut
The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
I'd think a teen, but if were moving up to mature, there is a whole range of additions that could make it into the game for atmospheric presence, I couldn't understand leaving them out. And considering the niche, non-mainstream nature of NS(and especially the whole over-steam thing), I couldn't see much of a downside to a more mature rating standard.
Comments
IIRC, the devs are aiming for a Teen rating for a larger target audience.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure most video game sales are made by 18+
theres data somewhere around here...
Bewbies - OH EM GEE ALL THE ALIEMS ARE NEKKED I SEE ONOS NIPPLE!
Drugs - CATPACKS ARE OBVIOUSLY AMPHETAMINES!
Gore - OMG BLUD WHEN MARINE BIT!
Won't somebody think of the children?
--Scythe--
P.S. Unless Charlie is planning to put in a prostitute-beating minigame for the spawn queue, I think we'll be safe.
That in itself would nearly warrant a M, but not quite. But things such as corpses lasting a longer time, becoming a gameplay object for aliens(As said in 300, 'Blood is Slippery'), or the gibbing of a Marine's remains after an Onos finishes devouring him, or setting things on fire(as even Charlie would like a Flamethrower, though who knows where that idea is now), they all are things that change significantly depending on ESRB rating.
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Yes! Especially if it adds to the skill and immersion of gameplay:
"Hmm, that player looks injured (easy kill if enemy, or need to heal if ally)"
"Wait a minute! I see marine blood let me turn on my alien flashlight and see if I can follow this trail."
*pow* *rambo marine finally taken down brutally* "Take that you god damn son of a ######!"
*TSA marine "Smith" stumbles in bleeding profusely* "Smith! Smith! Hang on buddy! Command we need a medpack here STAT! For god's sake man I mean now!"
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<i>Try</i> to imagine, I know it's hard for some of you. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Personally, I'd like to see us not confine ourselves to a Teen rating, Mature rating is fine. It does sell better in general, our VALVe's source engine that we are using has released mature rated single players, and honestly isn't not as if underage people aren't already playing the mature rated Half-Life game. Hell I have one Aussie kid named Blake who is like ten years old listed in my Steam friends thing. (yes he plays NS, and yes he can get a little annoying at times but in general is a fun person to play with) So please, <i>don't</i> limit ourselves to a Teen Rating, but <i>don't</i> try to achieve that rating either. Let me see if I can be more specific as to what that means...
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The point it that is should <b>NOT</b> be added in just for adding it. Swearing just because is lame and dull. Gore and violence just for the effect with no purpose actually hurts the game a great deal, nevermind other external criticisms.
It's all in <b>HOW</b> and <b>WHEN</b> it is implemented. Just look at the difference between a film where violence is added is appropiately for a stronger effect. And note films that add way too much and it looses it's effect.
It's like when cooking a dish and you add a spice: if you add too much you ruin it, you use just a little bit. It can be strong sure but it's bland without <b>CONTRAST</b>.
Contrast in peace and violence, healthy and dying, pretty and gory, is important to the artistic aspect of the game as well as to enjoyment (which is vital to sales). If you need examples thing of good and bad Sci Fi stuff, good and bad horror films, or just movies in general. Violence and/or Sex and/or Swearing != sales. To think is does is to be no better than a horror film flop. But when added in <i>wisely</i> to where it fits perfectly, you bet your ###### it does!
So with that in mind, remember: <i>don't</i> limit ourselves to a Teen Rating, but <i>don't</i> try to achieve that rating either.
It does sell better in general,
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Incorrect.
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Oh? Humor me and provide evidence.
Quaunaut, can you please read the rest of my post? That was probably one of the least important points in that post. Care to post a reply to the rest? I'm kind of disappointed Quaunaut. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Oh? Humor me and provide evidence.
Quaunaut, can you please read the rest of my post? That was probably one of the least important points in that post. Care to post a reply to the rest? I'm kind of disappointed Quaunaut. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
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Well, the rest was more of either "No duh" or "Up to future art assets". I mean, were talking about a game right now where concept art and programming are all that really exist. And what you were suggesting otherwise is just a test environment kind of thing- determining what kind of wounds, and placement of wounds, 'deserve' gore. I had no opinion on the rest, so I didn't post about it.
As for providing evidence, final graph on this page:
<a href="http://www.theesa.com/facts/sales_genre_data.php" target="_blank">http://www.theesa.com/facts/sales_genre_data.php</a>
Though my original point stands: If this game has no retail presence, then a mature rating probably wouldn't hurt sales at all.
"The reality is kids will play what parents allow them to play. Or, when they go to friends' houses, what the parents' friends allow them to play. Parents can regulate use as they see fit. Besides, parents often purchase electronics in the first place. Video games and video-game systems are expensive — too expensive even for many teens to purchase on their own….<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted that off your source because I agree with what that author wrote.
What I was hoping you'd reply to was that stuff under the word important, too which you completely ignored and just quoted something and typed incorrect. I'm dispointed because usually you give good feedback. Just because it's no duh to you doesn't mean it shouldn't be asserted. Heck it's no duh to me too, but I worry that in a thread that seems to be trying to specify a rating we should be aiming for is giving us a focus from a bad angle.
Like I was trying say, don't aim for a censorship rating, aim for making a good piece of art.
Like I was trying say, don't aim for a censorship rating, aim for making a good piece of art.
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As long as it's controlled. Keep in mind, HL1 was rated a long time ago. I'm not sure if it still qualifies as M rated. If it does, then NS doesn't.
Teen rated games, however, do seem to sell more as shown, mainly because not everyone likes to put up with excessive gore, etc...I know you people seem to enjoy it, but frankly, I'd rather enjoy a game that doesn't make my screen go red because I bit a marine and blood spurted all over my eyes.
We aren't including a lot of blood and gore in Natural Selection 2 (similar to NS1) but this isn't driven by a marketing decision, which I think people general assume is the reason developers make teen-rated games. In reality we just don't think it's important for the game/atmosphere that we are trying to create and has the potential to take away from the mission of the company (unite the world through play). When we hear stories from NS players about how they play with their kids, or grandmothers that play in clans it makes all of the effort that goes into making a game feel worthwhile.
I personally don't really agree with the ESRB's criteria for rating games, and even though we're planning on producing a game that we feel comfortable having children play, by their decision it may be an M rated game.
Max
Actually, I don't think Adj competes anymore.
Enjoying your participation, Max. Loved the teaser post about Jeff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...stemming from being able to grab onto a Marine's leg with your mouth(so chomp spamming would require multiple clicks, and holding it down would allow you to drag someone- maybe into a vent, breaking a leg mebeh?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always wanted this too! the ability to trip up and drag a marine or knock him down with leap is my dream. Aside from the 'wow' factor, i think it would promote marine teamwork. left 4 dead will have a similar feature so it might seem like imitation. It would be a pain to keep clicking while taking down structures though.
Quoted that off your source because I agree with what that author wrote.
What I was hoping you'd reply to was that stuff under the word important, too which you completely ignored and just quoted something and typed incorrect. I'm dispointed because usually you give good feedback. Just because it's no duh to you doesn't mean it shouldn't be asserted. Heck it's no duh to me too, but I worry that in a thread that seems to be trying to specify a rating we should be aiming for is giving us a focus from a bad angle.
Like I was trying say, don't aim for a censorship rating, aim for making a good piece of art.
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The old rule of forums is, "If you don't have anything to contribute, don't talk."
And Max: So then would that imply that you may have things that are potentially gory- say, the dragging marines into a vent(not saying this is a feature, just using it as an example) would probably just be handled in such a way to make it plausible but non-gory?
And Max: So then would that imply that you may have things that are potentially gory- say, the dragging marines into a vent(not saying this is a feature, just using it as an example) would probably just be handled in such a way to make it plausible but non-gory?
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We're not planning anything like that at this point, but considering that Counter-Strike: Source, Day of Defeat: Source, Red Orchesta, etc. are all rated M, I wouldn't really be surprised if the ESRB considered NS an M game as well (although interestingly BF1942 and the original DoD are rated T).
Max
In other words, no rating=no shelf space.
In other words, no rating=no shelf space.
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I agree. I'm trying to work out a marketing plan for Charlie, but that'll ruin it if I can't count in sale in retailers. It may be hard, but I think I have a plan to get you a semi-guaranteed "in" on a particular retailer but that is totally FUBAR without an ESRB rating. Honestly though, ESRB doesn't hinder the underage from playing a higher rated game.
<!--QuoteBegin-scaryface+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scaryface)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm kind of afraid of having a 'target' esrb rating. I feel that the devs should just make the best game possible and accept the consequent rating. Of course, it would be a bad idea to include meaningless gore just for the sake of making the game look cool if it would raise the rating, but i don't want potentially useful features to be left out to bring down the rating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kind of what I was trying to say in my earlier posts. I agree that is a BAD idea to try to aim for a specific rating. Make the best game you can and don't fret over the rating. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Lets face the truth, who looks rating anyways??? Buyers dont give a s.h.i.t about it. I was 12, when i played GTA..., I was 12, when i visited XXX site.
Anyways, mature rating will get more players, im sure.
Would a rating really have any effect on a game sold over Steam? Who's going to check you for ID?
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That was my earlier point. If it won't see retail, rating won't matter.
Imo rating should ba mature -> more cool stuff in game.
Lets face the truth, who looks rating anyways??? Buyers dont give a s.h.i.t about it. I was 12, when i played GTA..., I was 12, when i visited XXX site.
Anyways, mature rating will get more players, im sure.
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And that's a good thing?
In my opinion, if the game IS rated M, then it should have a customizable amount of gore, kinda like HL1. Those that want marines' limbs being bloodily ripped off after they die, can enjoy. Those that don't can leave that "feature" off.
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Toggles FTW! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Same could go for NS2. Sure, it'll be something new at first, but imo, the dev team should put all their efforts on features that players will enjoy even after months of playing instead of focusing on gore. However, this could be something the community could create (super gore pack of pwnage, for example) if they really want it.
**Note that I'm talking in general here. I'm sure some players would enjoy every moment tearing marines apart, but I think they're a small percentage.
I'm kind of afraid of having a 'target' esrb rating. I feel that the devs should just make the best game possible and accept the consequent rating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you question the Dev team on this? They've always had the T goal and look what it did to NS.
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Teen rated games, however, do seem to sell more as shown, mainly because not everyone likes to put up with excessive gore, etc...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this a quote or is it your own opinion? 'Cause I can imagine that this is also due to an unnormal distribution of computer game genres: These numbers only have meaning compared to the actual percentage of games in the rating group.
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being able to grab onto a Marine's leg with your mouth(so chomp spamming would require multiple clicks, and holding it down would allow you to drag someone- maybe into a vent, breaking a leg mebeh?).
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This would be cool, however if implemented it should be balanced VERY carefully, which IMO might be hard to do (too much power for aliens, however they could move real slow when dragging, making it harder to survive snatching a marine).
Marines might have an Acid Pill or something to take their own life (so you are not trapped in a captured body and only stay alive if rescue is possible/imminent/advantageous) and Kharaa might get bonus recourses for bringing a corpse (or better yet a living marine) to a resource tower or hyve (combind with Acid Pill this would give the marine a chance on dying, the closer to the alien building the less chance of dying due to a non-specified reason, so you don't kill yourself just before being 'sacrificed').
Although the idea of Kharaa chewing up dead bodies is too gory IMO, it <b>c</b>ould add to gameplay, cinematicity (does that word even exist?) and suspence...