What's Killing NS
SmoodCroozn
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
Stacked games to be certain. Sometimes we do this intentionally and sometimes it just happens randomly. Rather than playing a solid game for maybe an hour, you are reduced to staying at your hive, struggling to get out because the good players have all joined the other team.
No I'm not implying WE MUST STANDARDIZE PLAYERS. And no, I'm not throwing HANDICAPS here. All I'm saying is that the best game of NS is had when the teams are evenly matched, as with any other game.
I think this is the issue at hand more than aliens need this, marines are too this or RFK needs to do this.
No I'm not implying WE MUST STANDARDIZE PLAYERS. And no, I'm not throwing HANDICAPS here. All I'm saying is that the best game of NS is had when the teams are evenly matched, as with any other game.
I think this is the issue at hand more than aliens need this, marines are too this or RFK needs to do this.
Comments
Or we could realize this happens in every single FPS team game ever made.
Oh..and "I'm not impressed with your reasoning"
Or are you just agreeing with him?
<b>intentional</b> stacking. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Someone suggested an idea of letting players pick teams in the readyroom, that wasnt a bad idea, maybe something for the plug-in devs to try out.
play on servers with random teams? Sure stacking can still randomly happen, but at least it's not
<b>intentional</b> stacking. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Someone suggested an idea of letting players pick teams in the readyroom, that wasnt a bad idea, maybe something for the plug-in devs to try out.
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Picking teams takes too long. If you've ever played in a pug you'd know that most of the time leading up to the pug starting is spent trying to sort out teams. Most people just want to join a game and play.
The second problem is that the majority of the time the teams would be stacked simply because the captains don't know who the good players are. And there really is no solution to this problem, unless you use a plugin which gives each player a score value. But if you do go this route, then you might as well auto assign teams accroding to the score value rather than wasting 5 minutes trying to pick teams.
Of course, players will have to have data entered into the database to make this work, but it has great potential.
The readyrooms can still be there; they can be used for pre- and post-game chatting etc. But noone could join the game for the first 30 seconds, after which everyone would be randomed; after that, anyone joining could pick a team normally.
Auto-random is the only way to go. The devs will never incorporate this, so talk to server ops. Some already have it, and it works decently. Or just suck it up and try to even it yourselves, especially if you're one of the players who can affect balance.
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Quit ###### and get better.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
NS + the engine is getting old. Nothings killing it. It's quite simply being phased out like older games do.
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Agreed. Team stacking can ruin a lot of NS games but that's always been the case. Its a problem but its not THE problem.
I gaurantee you that implementing random teams or skill assigned teams would do nothing but kill NS a whole lot faster. You'd get more people angry about not being able to join the team they want than happy about the balance. I agree its a good idea in theory, but I don't think its worth it.
The only viable option is for automatic random teams.
The readyrooms can still be there; they can be used for pre- and post-game chatting etc. But noone could join the game for the first 30 seconds, after which everyone would be randomed; after that, anyone joining could pick a team normally.
Auto-random is the only way to go. The devs will never incorporate this, so talk to server ops. Some already have it, and it works decently. Or just suck it up and try to even it yourselves, especially if you're one of the players who can affect balance.
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While this seems to be the cleanest way to go about it, there's still that chance that the 3 top players will be grouped together.
There's that SEK ranking system, but sometimes good players can't even join.
Then there's handicapping, which nobody likes, but would allow everyone to choose what they want to play.
Perhaps if there was a system that simply took the top 3 players from each team and sorted these people out into both teams equally, then that's all that would be needed. You wouldn't have to touch the other players.
So if you had Makaveli and another good player, it would keep these players from joining the same team.
Well other than that, I guess Stix is right. Auto-random is the easiest way to go about this. There goes your choice however.
It has it's problems and can cause a stack instead of preventing it or leaving marines without a Commander or aliens without Fades but it does an okay job for now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
One issue we're having is forcing people on to the same team for a fair few games in a row.
For the last time smood -
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Quit ###### and get better.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
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I used to be in {LoC} a very, very long time ago. One of the biggest problems, in my mind, that the server faced was the constant LoC stacking on it. I never followed anyone to any team; I didn't think it was okay to stack. But the better members at the time didn't agree with me; they felt that it was okay to stack a team so they could "practice playing with each other".
Some practice they got.
Fatman + pub fodder. LoC > fodder, even then, when we lost every scrim, ever. And I'll be damned, NS is a team game. Anyone + pub fodder = suck. Doesn't matter how good they are. Smood says some dumb obnoxious stupid ish sometimes, but damn dude, you're getting just as bad as him saying "SUYF SMOOD ZOMG SKILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL"
And for those of you who think it isn't "a problem" (I don't think it's THE problem, but it sure as hell isn't helping) I later quit NS, one of the reasons being the above.
NS + the engine is getting old. Nothings killing it. It's quite simply being phased out like older games do.
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QFT.
Seriously guys I guess some people here having nothing else better to do then to start a Jihad versus "stacked/unbalanced/whatever" public games or something??!! Please give these guys a medal for being such heroes.
"automatically assigning players by their skill level" are you really serious about this? This community is so small, just for the love of god face the fact already that we are talking about public games here and that these games will ALWAYS contain mixes between "pro" "medium skilled" and "bad players/newbies"? It's a public server, I can't see any problem if I want to play a few rounds of NS with some friends of mine, on the team I want to play...
As for the whineage about teamplay on pubs mates once again we are talking about PUBS where good teamwork is just impossible due to the mix of all skill levels? All in all it's quite simple guys if you want more teamwork you should form a clan with some friends and practice, as I did with my friends in the past...
I for one quit clanplay about two years ago due to lack of time (competitive NS is much fun believe me and I really miss those times) and still enjoy NS pubbing.
Yes, the community is so small and that would imply stackage more often. If you had a larger population, you'd have a larger number of average players, which means a larger amount of semi-balanced games.
Skill level placement is done in SEK2000's server, so yes, it is a reality. People have told what has happened to them, but it's just one method someone used to counter stacking.
So no, there's no jihad here. I just believe if stacking were reduced, we'd see more satisfying games, than those 5-minute turret farm, electrify ones.
Yes, the community is so small and that would imply stackage more often. If you had a larger population, you'd have a larger number of average players, which means a larger amount of semi-balanced games.
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How do I failed maths
I'm not gonna say I'm a pro player, not at all, when I join a pub I get my ###### rocked too as a skulk by high skilled marines, but I accept it as this is public NS and if mr. godlike aim wanted to join marines then that was his choice? If he trained and practiced so much more then me and owns my skulk then i'm happy to accept that. If some marines rush the hive in the first minutes of the game and the alien team does not succeed in stopping them, thus getting spawncamped, I just join another server if it takes the piss? In all those years of public NS I experienced indeed bad games which were over after 3 minutes but also even more good games?
It's just the nature of public NS and I can understand how you may get angry about stacked games and what not but I think it's just best to accept it, though I guess you won't.
We're running a random plugin on the YO servers (see my sig). It's an amx plugin made by one of our server admins. I don't know all the details on how it works I'm afraid but it uses a stat system and tries to even out the skill level of the teams.
It has it's problems and can cause a stack instead of preventing it or leaving marines without a Commander or aliens without Fades but it does an okay job for now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
One issue we're having is forcing people on to the same team for a fair few games in a row.
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The plugin works just fine for the pubbing. There are always teams without comm or fades. The only annoying thing is to get randomed into a bad working alien team multiple times in a row, but its more of the gameplay issue than the plugin.
Btw. There are also some low skill players who refuse to learn the marine gameplay and just stack to aliens. I think they deserve a mention since the pro marines are getting so much blame. Of course it isn't such a big factor as the top marines, but still they're imbalancing the teams slightly.
I used to be in {LoC} a very, very long time ago. One of the biggest problems, in my mind, that the server faced was the constant LoC stacking on it. I never followed anyone to any team; I didn't think it was okay to stack. But the better members at the time didn't agree with me; they felt that it was okay to stack a team so they could "practice playing with each other".
Some practice they got.
Fatman + pub fodder. LoC > fodder, even then, when we lost every scrim, ever. And I'll be damned, NS is a team game. Anyone + pub fodder = suck. Doesn't matter how good they are. Smood says some dumb obnoxious stupid ish sometimes, but damn dude, you're getting just as bad as him saying "SUYF SMOOD ZOMG SKILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL"
And for those of you who think it isn't "a problem" (I don't think it's THE problem, but it sure as hell isn't helping) I later quit NS, one of the reasons being the above.
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*gives F4tManMGS2 applause* Well said.
Too bad you don't play NS anymore. You just need to find a server where the admins believe in the above, and use the AMXX random join frequently. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I used to be in {LoC} a very, very long time ago. One of the biggest problems, in my mind, that the server faced was the constant LoC stacking on it. I never followed anyone to any team; I didn't think it was okay to stack. But the better members at the time didn't agree with me; they felt that it was okay to stack a team so they could "practice playing with each other".
Some practice they got.
Fatman + pub fodder. LoC > fodder, even then, when we lost every scrim, ever. And I'll be damned, NS is a team game. Anyone + pub fodder = suck. Doesn't matter how good they are. Smood says some dumb obnoxious stupid ish sometimes, but damn dude, you're getting just as bad as him saying "SUYF SMOOD ZOMG SKILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL"
And for those of you who think it isn't "a problem" (I don't think it's THE problem, but it sure as hell isn't helping) I later quit NS, one of the reasons being the above.
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It seems like every solution to your problem ends up with the only viable option: Random the teams each game. And every time this comes up, nearly everyone agrees that this wouldn't really be a good solution since most of the time players want to play with their friends.
So unless you can think of any other brilliant solution, I offer the same advice: Stop whining about how you think the game is unbalanced for bad players, and make an attempt to play better.
Hints:
1. Go play on Tactical Gamer. While you won't be getting much better individually, your understanding of basic game mechanics will grow immensely. The games they have there are at least a bare bone model of what NS was built to play like.
2. <a href="http://www.ansl.us/forums/" target="_blank">http://www.ansl.us/forums/</a>, post in the team/clan recruitment section. Joining a team will not only give you a few players to pub with all the time, but will make you a much better player overall. And for all those that whine about it being 'too serious' and not having enough time, believe me: One game of NS a week shouldn't be very hard to do.
3. Stop playing 45 minute combat with extralevels/xmenu. It won't make you better. 15 minute combat is OK, but only in moderation.
4. Listen to the people that are better than you - you might have been playing for just as long as they have, but competitive players are just naturally more knowledgeable and play at a much higher skill level.
5. If you have IRC, idle #nspickup in the gamesurge network and try joining a few pugs. It's pretty simple: all you do is wait until a pug is started, type '.j', and once the pug is filled (12/12) you will be sent the server information. Once in the server, the game is played like a dodgeball game where two captains pick their teams. To most people, these games are a lot more fun since 100 percent of the players that play in them are competent.
6. On marines, if you're having trouble killing skulks, turn down your sensitivity. Download the knife gaming pack or the nL Hackpack. Lower (or raise) your resolution to 800x600. Make sure your music is off. Bind +jump to mwheelup and mwheeldown. Learn to bunnyhop. Ns_bhop works wonders, especially when you have someone teaching you.
7. As a skulk, stop walking down long hallways at marines. Before you do anything, learn to bunnyhop. Until you do, go and gorge (unless you know what you're doing). All alien lifeforms are about cutting down the distance between yourself and the marine, and if take the slowest way there... well, of course they're going to kill you.
8. As a lerk, try raising your sensitivity. Never rush a shotgun, or more then 2 marines. If you're not confident in your lerking ability, you're 100x more useful to the team when you sit in vents and spore, rather than flying in and dying. A lerk is the 'spellcaster' of NS, and should be treated as one - a lot of newer/less experienced players think of a lerk as an early tank - Don't be mistaken. (Note: when you see those amazing lerks in pubs go 20-0, it's because the other team is really bad - not because the lerk is really good)
9. Fades aren't tanks either. A common mistake I see in a lot of games is someone goes fade, walks into a room of 2 LMGS, and tries to swipe over and over until they die. A fade needs to blink in, take 1-2 swipes, and blink out. Bind mouse2 to +movement, it helps a lot of new players out. If you're having trouble staying alive, try to remember that fades should almost NEVER be walking near marines. If you're walking within 10 feet of them, you're doing something wrong.
10. I'm not going to explain an onos.
Please smood, seek out some assistance. There are plenty of friendly players that wouldn't mind teaching you how to be a better skulk, so you wouldn't have to come here every day and post on how you're so ###### about how people are better than you are.
PS - NS is dying because it's old, not because of stacking marines. QQ
9.
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Ok I run a really powerful listen server at times for friends and for testing. But... I'd love it if I could use it for impromptu matches -- <i>love</i> it. Explain more about how this works, I want to host these public scrims if I can. Really.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
You can correlate many things with the decline of activity within the NS scene: the release of HL2; the release of World of Warcraft; the epiphany of many serious players that no sponsor money or big publicity would come to the competetive scene; the release of new versions; the development and following stalling of tactics and strategy; the increase in skill gaps between new and experienced players, and a possible increase frequency of uneven teams in public games. If you check the time line of NS all of these things will have happened activity of NS players in total decreased. The correlation is there, but I see a serious lack of proof of causality in most cases.
The only somewhat well founded conclusion you can draw is that activity for NS has decreased proportionally to the age of the game in a fashion similar to that of other games. Old age is killing NS.
Oh no wait.
Ok I run a really powerful listen server at times for friends and for testing. But... I'd love it if I could use it for impromptu matches -- <i>love</i> it. Explain more about how this works, I want to host these public scrims if I can. Really.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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You don't run scrims/pugs off listenservers.