The meaning of life
Khaze
Join Date: 2006-12-12 Member: 59031Members
Join Date: 2006-12-12 Member: 59031Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">There is no meaning?</div>I was really bored the other day, and resorted to random google searches. So what did I search for? "The meaning of life"
I came across a wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life) about it, and started reading. Most of it I found pretty trivial, untill I came across Nihilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life#Nihilist_views). I realised that this is very close to how I see things, so I thought, hey, I'll look deeper in to it.
The more I read about Nihilism and Nietzsche's writings, the more convinced I became that this is exactly what I've been looking for. I'm not alone with these thoughts after all.
I always thought the concept of "God" is ridiculous. I think it's the answer to a question which no one could figure out an answer to, and even if they did, they denied the answer. People couldn't accept the fact that there's nothing more out there. This is all there is. What better answer is there to a question that can't be answered than an all-poweful being that is everywhere, hears, sees and knows everything, but which we cannot explain? I think it's outright stupid. How can you deny the obvious answer, which simple logic will get you to?
I could go on and on about it, but I'm more interested in hearing what other people think about it.
If some of these makes no sense, ignore it. It's late. I know, old excuse. But true. But what does it matter? Heh.
Do also note that I have not actually read any of Nietzsche's writings, only read some quotes here and there around the web, so don't go too deep on them as I don't have the material at hand. I do plan on acquiring some though later on.
I came across a wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life) about it, and started reading. Most of it I found pretty trivial, untill I came across Nihilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life#Nihilist_views). I realised that this is very close to how I see things, so I thought, hey, I'll look deeper in to it.
The more I read about Nihilism and Nietzsche's writings, the more convinced I became that this is exactly what I've been looking for. I'm not alone with these thoughts after all.
I always thought the concept of "God" is ridiculous. I think it's the answer to a question which no one could figure out an answer to, and even if they did, they denied the answer. People couldn't accept the fact that there's nothing more out there. This is all there is. What better answer is there to a question that can't be answered than an all-poweful being that is everywhere, hears, sees and knows everything, but which we cannot explain? I think it's outright stupid. How can you deny the obvious answer, which simple logic will get you to?
I could go on and on about it, but I'm more interested in hearing what other people think about it.
If some of these makes no sense, ignore it. It's late. I know, old excuse. But true. But what does it matter? Heh.
Do also note that I have not actually read any of Nietzsche's writings, only read some quotes here and there around the web, so don't go too deep on them as I don't have the material at hand. I do plan on acquiring some though later on.
Comments
That said, imo there might be a meaning of life, but I don't think we're capable of percieving it - so it's all fumbling in the dark pretty much, people may claim they know it, perhaps they do, but meh, forcing it on people just(not thinking of anyone in particular) seems silly - as well, it doesn't seem like anyone can really prove what they have in any way (one might say you can't prove jack ****) - not sure how to say this the best way atm, as I too, am tired like hell, so I guess I'll just leave it at what there is atm.. dunno..
Biologically speaking, the ultimate meaning of life is to just to survive and reproduce. If you're searching for something a bit more metaphysical, you'll have to find that yourself.
Reproduction and survival aren't "meanings of life", they are observations of what prevents the end of life. As far as looking at it that way for your own life, why are <i>you</i> here to reproduce when somebody else could have come into existence for that purpose? Reproduction/survival is an easy way out of the topic.
More on topic, if you know about the idea of multidimensional universes, then perhaps you could accept the argument that we really can't perceive the meaning of life (ours or just in general) as we are only four-dimensional objects, aware of three of our dimensions and progressing through our fourth dimension.
It's quite possible that you will never know the true meaning of your life, since it may not be discovered in your current dimensional limits. Maybe it is better to talk about the purpose of life, rather than the meaning.
If this is of interest, I propose that the purpose of all life is to end.
the aim of life is how many positive impact u can bring to others, like bringing happiness, improving life of others, making a series of technological breakthroughs, etc. when u come to the question of meaning of life, dun forget that there are a lot people who would just ignore this question and just complain about how many problems they encounter daily. and our job is to guide them to solve every problem and hence finally leads to this problem, The meaning of life.
the meaning of life is, imho, is to guide us to think, solve problems and finally realize and participate in this beautiful world.
hmm wth i am talking about
But WHY? For what possible or impossible reason? This is the question I've been wondering.
For what possible reason should we do ANYTHING?
WHY should we reproduce? So we our children could imagine new things and make new technological breakthroughs? But WHY? Why should we achieve new technologies?
Even if we DID live in the Matrix, why would the machines use our bodies to gain energy? For what reason? To multiply? Why would they multiply?
Why why why why? Why should we wonder about the meaning of life? Why should we bother with anything?
.... see my point?
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Why should we do anything? Because it makes us feel good. Rather simple aint it?
For an animal: they have evloved so that the ones that do NOT do things "beneficial to a long life" (serious geek cred to anyone that can tell me what that is from) die, and thus does not produce more of its kind. So those things that are beneficial to a long life feel GOOD, and those things that would harm us, feel bad. Toss into the count that those that have not evolved enjoying procriation will also die out (rather quickly).
For humans it gets a little bit more tricky, simply because we can make ourselfs THINK that other things are benefical to a long life (even if they are detrimental to our survival, if we have tought ourselfs that they are good, then we do em). An extreme example of this is in some old versions of christianity:
1) We teach ourselfs that life gets BETTER after we die, if we have been good in this one.
2) We all do bad things and thus make up for them
3) Self Flagelation is a great way to make up for bad thigns we do.
4) Whip off chunks of our skin.
Why would the machines do these things? They are machines, that is what they were designed to do. They didn't hate humanity, they were simple designed to propograte/evolve/get better (call it what you will).
Now, for my vies:
There is no 'meaning of life' (No I am not a nihilist)
(side note, 42 is NOT the meaning of life, it is the Answer to The Ultimate Question Of Life, the Universe, and Everything, so not the meaning, just the answer to the question. Now what is the Question? Well, you will have to build another supper computer to get that)
There are things that give YOUR life meaning though. Be it the search for eternal pleasure (good luck, let me know the solution when you find it), raising a thriving family (not for me, but I can understand it), money, power, sex, whatever it is.
So I guess my definition of the meaning of life is the search for what gives your life meaning. This probably classifies me as a hedonist, but I don't really think of my self as a hedonist (though I can make a rather good argument that there is no such thing as altruism, and we are all just hedonists).
I personally have always disliked Nihilism as it seems like a cheap cop out for people with no morals (after all, if nothing has any value, then no one thing is better then anything else, then there can be no morals, and any action I take is just as correct as any other).
However, as I believe that people should try and find that which gives their life meaning, I will not begrudge other people any views they chose to hold on to.
To serve chaos isn't a purpose, it is more like a property. What's the purpose of serving chaos?
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This is what I've been trying to say aswell.
<!--quoteo(post=1607642:date=Feb 18 2007, 10:11 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Feb 18 2007, 10:11 PM) [snapback]1607642[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Be it the search for eternal pleasure (good luck, let me know the solution when you find it), raising a thriving family (not for me, but I can understand it), money, power, sex, whatever it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but what is the purpose of eternal pleasure, the purpose of raising a thriving family, or all those others? They may be something to long for, but not a purpose as to WHY we should do any of those. Or shouldn't do.
If, by "the meaning of life," you mean, "why does life exist at all," or, "is there a greater reason humanity, or all life, was put on Earth," no one can really answer that. Your two choices for why life exists seem to be God or probability.
Then of course if you just want to know the meaning of the word 'life' you can just skim through the <a href="http://m-w.com/dictionary/life" target="_blank">dictionary entry</a>.
what's the purpose of serving order? your entire existence could be to perform one action that causes a (seemingly trivial) event to take place that causes something else to happen ... (enter chaos theory.)
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I'm not really suggesting that we are serving order, because we are not. Every single action we make increases chaos, even if it looks to us like we are increasing order. I suppose the purpose of life could be to serve chaos depending on how you define the word "purpose". I would still call it a property, since pretty much everything in the known universe adds to chaos. If serving chaos was the reason for why life exists, why does life have to exist in the first place? The universe would be just fine serving chaos on its own. Probability may have caused it. If that's the extent of the reason, then it's pretty sad.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
Meaning is not something that is an object existing in the universe. It is an action undertaken or experienced by a particular being. Talking about meaning without specifying meaning TO WHOM is basically just an incomplete thought. It's no different than the sentence "Went to the bank." It's an incomplete sentence because the subject isn't specified.
Therefore, there can be no "meaning of life" in an objective, answer sense. There can only be the meanings that particular beings find in things. Furthermore, the fact that someone, even someone that created you, thinks they have a purpose and meaning for you doesn't mean that you experience that as meaningful TO YOU (your parents might have had you hoping that you'd grow up to be a doctor, but this dream and hope may not be very meaningful to you if you decide that you want to be an artist).
To serve chaos isn't a purpose, it is more like a property. What's the purpose of serving chaos?
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If you take quantum chaos and thermodynamical chaos in consideration, then you will always be on the winning side, when serving chaos.
So the purpose of serving chaos is being on the winning side.
Edit: And to answer the thread title: Reproduction!
Assuming that life is complex machinery, I think we should try to figure out why life even reproduces. I would assume that life started from a pool of chemical reactions that somehow manages to organize and replicate it self. From here, somehow the chemicals became more and more efficient and complex as to continue self-replication. Now, why in the world would this happen? Why are these reactions continuing to reproduce? Why has it become so complex as to rise to the current level of life on Earth?
All this crap seems to be trying to violate the laws of thermodynamics, why is life trying to escape the oblivion and fight entrophy? Everything keeps building itself into higher and higher levels of order, rather than degrading into chaos like it's supposed to...maybe the purpose of this "life" is to fight against entrophy by evolving into ever more complex forms of organization and keep it alive by reproducing.
However, on the topic of why humans do the things they do, it might just be a extension of this "fight" against entrophy, or just a byproduct of our complexity.
What about Viruses? Why do they reproduce? Viruses are not considered living organisms, even though they reproduce like crazy. The simplest of viruses are a protein case and a strand of DNA. How come they home in on cells, and attempt to reproduce? Maybe our definition of life is flawed. You could probably even extend this to crystal formations. Is it possible to consider crystals life? Why are they growing?
lol, is that the meaning of life? To fight entrophy?
let's ask the computer
It's kind of a moot point anyways since the law also says that there can NEVER be made more order than disorder. Whenever order is made, much more disorder is generated in the process.
If nothing floats your boat, then you turn to philosophy to define your life. Which is a bad idea, it is much more fulfilling to do anything else. If you have to turn to philosophy, maybe you should join the army, or do something else. I don't know if I believe in god, but I know damn well that if there is one thing in life I can count on, it is going through the day with an open mind you can learn something new. I do believe that is reason enough in itself for life. When that day ceases to come, then you will gain the final knowledge of death, which not to sound grim could be the final comfort, and knowledge finally what comes after life. Which is a moot point, the only time to worry about death is when you are actually dead, until then you only need concern yourself about dying.
Now the <b>real</b> question is, what malfunction in humans made them start questioning their own lives. Humans have an eternal thirst for knowledge, and yet they despair to never find it all out. You can't know if you are just delusional and imagining it all, your own personal god in a world of illusion. All you know is that <b>you</b> exist, and that is all that matters for life to exist to you. Other people don't have to <b>really</b> exist for you to befriend them or enjoy life (or to get laid ^_^). If you worry about your sanity then you are rejecting your own reality, which is really a shame. If you cannot trust what you see, then you are not able to live.
Of course, that is really my personal meaning of life, but it works. If you believe that ultimately entropy cannot be reversed then all we are doing it speeding it along as humans. So fight the man, try and reverse entropy! =P
I highly doubt that anyone here is "despair[ing] to never find it all out." Nor is anyone "not able to live" becuase they "cannot trust what [they] see." The majority of this discussion is about the rationality behind ALL life, not just humanity. This isn't about why humans do what they do, it's about how come evolution came to develop such a highly ordered and complex structure of fluids, gases, and solids.
Nobody here uses anything on this discussion "to define [their] life." This isn't some sort of bleeding heart forum for people to despair about, which is what I feel you are accusing everyone here of. Do not confuse the "meaing of living and interaction as a human being" between the "meaning of highly ordered self-propogating matter constructs." Keep the two seperate as they are VERY different things.
<b>These are my opinions:</b>
To live as a human being, your purpose is to seek mental and physical development of yourself and those you care about. To live a life without new experiences is to live the life of a primitive animal. The reason why you would do this as opposed to sitting around watching TV is because for the most part, experiencing new things generates happiness. Happiness is what everyone seeks right? Well there is no better way then to try new things. Otherwise, stagnation will result. There is definitely a purpose to life as a human.
What about Viruses? Why do they reproduce? Viruses are not considered living organisms, even though they reproduce like crazy. The simplest of viruses are a protein case and a strand of DNA. How come they home in on cells, and attempt to reproduce? Maybe our definition of life is flawed. You could probably even extend this to crystal formations. Is it possible to consider crystals life? Why are they growing?
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A lot scientists consider viruses as a form of life, myself among them.
To answer the broader question I don't think there has to be a purpose to everything. Using viruses as an example, its not that they chose to reproduce so there is no "why". Their reproduction follows their existance. Because the molecules they are composed of automatically react with other cells and "reproduce", or rather cause other molecules to come together in a certain fashion because it is the most thermodynamically stable form. That is dictated by the nature of the universe.
Why do they exist at all? You'd have to go back to the begining of the universe to answer that. To me the begining of the universe was like seeding a random number generator. Although things in life seem random (chaos) they are in fact occuring in the only way they possibly could have given the state of things at the very instance the universe came into existance.
How did the universe come into existance? Its hard to answer that without invoking God. But then how did God come into existance? In the end you just go out into an infinity of whys or hows.
...or it could just be a TV show like Dr. Suredeath said. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Personally, I'm confused as to whether the universe is deterministic or probablistic. There seems to be alot of theories that support a probablistic universe, so I am partial to that interpretation. With this in mind, I will bring entrophy into question again:
The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that higher ordered systems MUST progress to highly disordered systems. Life can be seen as a force that is fighting this push towards "chaos" because every single life form is becoming more complex than it's predecessor (atleast Earth life is). Except the fact that everytime something of higher order is made, more disorder is generate.