3.2 B2 is the best NS release I've ever played
Swiftspear
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Simply put, I feel I've had more fun with this current release then I've ever had with NS before. The face of this game seems totally different now then it's ever been before in the past. Pub play has never been more fun. I have complaints sure, but overall the pro's massively outweigh the cons. A rational follows.
The game seems more balanced one team to the other then it's ever been before. In B2 I have lost games where marines had a 2 hive lockdown, and I have won games where aliens got up a 4 minute hive. The second hive is as important at ever, however, it doesn't seem to dominate the game dynamic the way it used to. The reasons are as follows. Firstly the aliens all being rebalanced to account for a lack of hive armor modifiers means that the early game aliens are actually very well balanced against the early game marines, and it isn't the end of the world if you can't get another hive because if you have the right combo of lifeforms you can keep marine res down and screw over MS until you have so many onos that there is just no way to keep you out of a hive. The aliens aren't stuck going movement first in order to hive rush a location, even if they go SC first, once that hive is up transport between hives is instant, and therefore you can have a hoard of focus fades buzzing around at a moment's notice. Ultimately what it seems to mean is that the game is less decided now simply by the second hive, and more decided by weather you effectively counter your opponent's pushes. If the opponent rushes heavy and you have many onos, you can win with hive 1. If the opponent rushes jetpacks and you have focus fades, you can win with hive 1.
The fade finally feels right. +movement and the tweaking of the way blink works means the fade isn't a ridiculously elitist class that only monks who manipulate their config's ridiculously and play via telepathic interface with the game can play properly. I can now blink where I intend and have enough adrenaline left to swipe a marine to death and run without a quickblink script. And after the second hive goes up, metabolize +movement fades make every nub fade actually useful, since it's not ridiculously hard to multi task the commands any more. In 3.1 it seemed like the only really good fades were dedicated fade players who had massive script setups in their config to ease the ridiculousness of what commands were required all at the same time in order to play. Now I'm seeing many older players and cruddier players pick up the class and play it at least well enough to be useful. There are still great fades out there who blink in circles around you and never miss a swipe, but the crappy fades aren't a waste of res as much as they used to be. The skill slope has leveled a bit, and I personally feel this is a MASSIVELY positive change, at least to the pubbing community.
The chambers finally feel balanced against each other. The more I play 3.2 the less I feel ###### off when someone drops SC or DC first. They are actually useful, and you don't lose the ability to warp from one hive to the other with them. Upgrades have become an issue of countering your opponent and preference now, as opposed to where you had to go movement before or else the second hive wouldn't go up and you would instantly lose. Now any chamber helps the second hive go up, focus fades are great, cara skulks, lerks and fades are peachy, celerity and silence are as fun as ever, it doesn't matter the way it used to. It makes the marine game more fun by extention. If you figure out what upgrade the aliens went you might have some ability do directly counter them. If they go SC get alot of obs, if they go DC take the off side of the map and upgrades weapons fast, MC same as always, prevent second hive.
The onos is actually scary again. It doesn't matter if you have a L3 HMG, you can't solo that dude any more unless he seriously screws up. He plays an obvious role of countering early heavies, which is a role important and needed to the game, it's not right of an HMG light can stop most onos, and they can't right now. Jetpacks are a clear and obvious onos counter now, and heavy a clear and obvious fade counter. This late game polarization means that often in stale mate games (and I've played several) it becomes entirely a mind game, rather then a skill game. If most of the aliens are onos and you have a team full of HMG jetpacks, you screw them over, and if most of the aliens are fades and all of a sudden there is a full on heavy rush the fades lose. Your RTS centric strategical choice in the late game actually makes a MASSIVE difference now. I've seen marine teams win against all odds, early alien hives going up uncontested, and large alien res monopolies, because the alien team went MC DC and got a bunch of onos which were proven useless against a JP shotty rush. A hive goes down, half the onos go down, res get capped by marines in a matter of minutes, and all of a sudden the game has flipped completely. This isn't your grand daddies NS with only a single dominant strat any more.
I do have one complaint, and that is the lerk. I played alot of lerk in 3.1, and the lerk was a great class then. The current lerk doesn't seem to be playable as an offensive class any more. They aren't the minifades that made a large difference in the early game the way they once were. A single shotty out in the field and the lerk is basically useless right now. It's too slow, it's flight is too predictable, it can't possibly hope to survive. Gas doesn't do enough damage for it's energy cost to really make it a dominating factor most of the time, the lerk has gone from a class that used to be occasionally the decisive factor, to a minor nuisance for marines. I don't even lerk for more then a few turns in combat any more, because they just can't fall jetpacks the way they used to, and they get screwed ungraciously by shotguns, even upgraded to the hilt, and I used to play just lerk in CO.
Anyways, long post. I hope this helps someone.
The game seems more balanced one team to the other then it's ever been before. In B2 I have lost games where marines had a 2 hive lockdown, and I have won games where aliens got up a 4 minute hive. The second hive is as important at ever, however, it doesn't seem to dominate the game dynamic the way it used to. The reasons are as follows. Firstly the aliens all being rebalanced to account for a lack of hive armor modifiers means that the early game aliens are actually very well balanced against the early game marines, and it isn't the end of the world if you can't get another hive because if you have the right combo of lifeforms you can keep marine res down and screw over MS until you have so many onos that there is just no way to keep you out of a hive. The aliens aren't stuck going movement first in order to hive rush a location, even if they go SC first, once that hive is up transport between hives is instant, and therefore you can have a hoard of focus fades buzzing around at a moment's notice. Ultimately what it seems to mean is that the game is less decided now simply by the second hive, and more decided by weather you effectively counter your opponent's pushes. If the opponent rushes heavy and you have many onos, you can win with hive 1. If the opponent rushes jetpacks and you have focus fades, you can win with hive 1.
The fade finally feels right. +movement and the tweaking of the way blink works means the fade isn't a ridiculously elitist class that only monks who manipulate their config's ridiculously and play via telepathic interface with the game can play properly. I can now blink where I intend and have enough adrenaline left to swipe a marine to death and run without a quickblink script. And after the second hive goes up, metabolize +movement fades make every nub fade actually useful, since it's not ridiculously hard to multi task the commands any more. In 3.1 it seemed like the only really good fades were dedicated fade players who had massive script setups in their config to ease the ridiculousness of what commands were required all at the same time in order to play. Now I'm seeing many older players and cruddier players pick up the class and play it at least well enough to be useful. There are still great fades out there who blink in circles around you and never miss a swipe, but the crappy fades aren't a waste of res as much as they used to be. The skill slope has leveled a bit, and I personally feel this is a MASSIVELY positive change, at least to the pubbing community.
The chambers finally feel balanced against each other. The more I play 3.2 the less I feel ###### off when someone drops SC or DC first. They are actually useful, and you don't lose the ability to warp from one hive to the other with them. Upgrades have become an issue of countering your opponent and preference now, as opposed to where you had to go movement before or else the second hive wouldn't go up and you would instantly lose. Now any chamber helps the second hive go up, focus fades are great, cara skulks, lerks and fades are peachy, celerity and silence are as fun as ever, it doesn't matter the way it used to. It makes the marine game more fun by extention. If you figure out what upgrade the aliens went you might have some ability do directly counter them. If they go SC get alot of obs, if they go DC take the off side of the map and upgrades weapons fast, MC same as always, prevent second hive.
The onos is actually scary again. It doesn't matter if you have a L3 HMG, you can't solo that dude any more unless he seriously screws up. He plays an obvious role of countering early heavies, which is a role important and needed to the game, it's not right of an HMG light can stop most onos, and they can't right now. Jetpacks are a clear and obvious onos counter now, and heavy a clear and obvious fade counter. This late game polarization means that often in stale mate games (and I've played several) it becomes entirely a mind game, rather then a skill game. If most of the aliens are onos and you have a team full of HMG jetpacks, you screw them over, and if most of the aliens are fades and all of a sudden there is a full on heavy rush the fades lose. Your RTS centric strategical choice in the late game actually makes a MASSIVE difference now. I've seen marine teams win against all odds, early alien hives going up uncontested, and large alien res monopolies, because the alien team went MC DC and got a bunch of onos which were proven useless against a JP shotty rush. A hive goes down, half the onos go down, res get capped by marines in a matter of minutes, and all of a sudden the game has flipped completely. This isn't your grand daddies NS with only a single dominant strat any more.
I do have one complaint, and that is the lerk. I played alot of lerk in 3.1, and the lerk was a great class then. The current lerk doesn't seem to be playable as an offensive class any more. They aren't the minifades that made a large difference in the early game the way they once were. A single shotty out in the field and the lerk is basically useless right now. It's too slow, it's flight is too predictable, it can't possibly hope to survive. Gas doesn't do enough damage for it's energy cost to really make it a dominating factor most of the time, the lerk has gone from a class that used to be occasionally the decisive factor, to a minor nuisance for marines. I don't even lerk for more then a few turns in combat any more, because they just can't fall jetpacks the way they used to, and they get screwed ungraciously by shotguns, even upgraded to the hilt, and I used to play just lerk in CO.
Anyways, long post. I hope this helps someone.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
i agree, i think the lerk has lost a lot of it's importance in 3.2, which is a shame
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agreed, 'cause in version 2 the lerk is EASYest in flying, and the model is not FREEZED stay.
when you fly with lerk in NS 2 the model wings are flapping. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
in version 3.2 b2 the model STILL cool in flying, and DO NOT FLAP with his wings.
agreed, 'cause in version 2 the lerk is EASYest in flying, and the model is not FREEZED stay.
when you fly with lerk in NS 2 the model wings are flapping. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
in version 3.2 b2 the model STILL cool in flying, and DO NOT FLAP with his wings.
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I can't say I noticed the animation bug... But I did notice the fairly large speed decrease to celerity lerks resulting in them basically being devastated by shotguns. I also regularly LMG lerk players that in 3.1 would have been all but untouchable.
The lerk was never strong against shotguns, but it's gone from the point where lerks used to be able to survive if they were very smart and a bit lucky to just being hopeless. You're so slow you can't possibly dodge. Even in umbra I'm finding I'm only able to kill the worst shotgunners, where in 3.1 I was surprised when occasionally the best competitive players could still pull a kill off when I was lerking with umbra. If I'd had to make a recommendation I'd say speed the lerk back up to exactly what it was 3.1 with celerity, and then speed up the non celer to some accepted middle point, as opposed to the current where non celer is slightly faster, but celerity is quite a bit slower then it was for lerk. Fade could do to be a little faster with celerity too IMO... Not much is needed, but a touch would help. It makes sense, lerks and fades should logically be the counter to the new cheap jetpack. I'm finding often times it's the other way around, where the fade/lerk takes some damage and has to go on the run, just to be easily chased down and finished off by a skilled jetpacker. The jetpacker will often get killed by a skulk, but a jetpack shotty kit is, what, 20 res now? 25?
3.1 lerk often survived because of the hitboxes, not because marine couldn't hit a dodging lerk. I guess this was the only way to fix it.
except without a fade babysitter you're dead anywhere on the field vs any decent team of marines
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Yes because keeping your distance and sporing from vents gets you killed oh-so-easily doesn't it .... fade babysitter? learn to parasite and you won't get ambushed. That's obviously the problem - Charlie you need to buff teamwork next patch yeah?
Yes because keeping your distance and sporing from vents gets you killed oh-so-easily doesn't it .... fade babysitter? learn to parasite and you won't get ambushed. That's obviously the problem - Charlie you need to buff teamwork next patch yeah?
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that's extremely naive if you think it's that easy, on top of the condition of having the entire team of jetpacks parasited and re-parasited at all times at that stage in the game. lerks are paper early game as is, then late game have almost zero practical use save suicide. getting into certain vents has also never been so frustrating (double on veil, for example).
the sarcastic appeal to flayra was definitely necessary though
Yes because keeping your distance and sporing from vents gets you killed oh-so-easily doesn't it .... fade babysitter? learn to parasite and you won't get ambushed. That's obviously the problem - Charlie you need to buff teamwork next patch yeah?
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Why does everyone think that bad balance = good teamwork? If the lerk dies WAY too easy that doesn't mean the aliens need more teamwork. It means that marines need less teamwork. ZOMG, UR ARGUMENT IS FLIPPED!
Seriously, can people stop defending bad balance changes as "increasing the need for teamwork"? They don't, they just make the game worse. A lerk costs 30 res, it shouldn't require more 'teamwork' for it to play effectively then a skulk does. It's not a support class. Without umbra it supports nothing. At best it's kind of an indirect attack class, but even then, with the lerk unable to make that finishing attack run spore just doesn't seem nearly as threatening as it did in 3.1
3.1 pancaking was pretty lol. It made the lerk too hard to kill unless you had a SG or HMG. I'm sure all the euros remember Phil from flatline.
They should not be in frontline battles as much as gorges are. Both classes go in frontline battles, but most of the time, the back is fine.
Lerks <b>are</b> a support class. That's why they fly (fast movement to be where they need to be when they need to be there), have spores (AoE DOT attack ... support, basically), have umbra (yeah you know what that is - support again) .... and primal scream which is ... <b>yet again</b> a support ability.
For all you people who claim that lerks are crappy - try using them for what theyre good at instead of flying into 3 shotgunners, dying, and screaming <i>"ZOMG 30 RES GOT OWNED BY 30 RES WTH IMBA IMBA!!!"</i>
The point here, Steve, is that if the marines have an entire team of jetpack HMG/SG then you either a) are beyond terrible at killing nodes b) have 2 hives, 3-4 RT's and lots of lifeforms or c) got massively outskilled and are losing to a better team.
A) means you need to stop fraghunting and kill some goddam res nodes
B) means your lerk needs to stop fraghunting against weapons which can instagib him and SUPPORT your other lifeforms
C) means you got raped, better luck next time.
Claiming that early game lerks are "paper" just means that you need to stop playing public and learn how the game works against players who actually know what they're doing.
I vote for give the lerk back SOME speed at least. Too slow.
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You're not getting the flame you want.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerks <b>are</b> a support class. That's why they fly (fast movement to be where they need to be when they need to be there), have spores (AoE DOT attack ... support, basically), have umbra (yeah you know what that is - support again) .... and primal scream which is ... <b>yet again</b> a support ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And...lerkbite?...By your reasoning I could say the fade is a support class because they have blink to "be where they need to be when they need to be there" with "fast movement", acid rocket to support from afar and metabolize to blink in and take damage for other lifeforms to come in. By your words, "support class" doesn't really seem to mean anything. But I can tell you I felt a lot more supporting when I had some method of dodging, the flight climb nerf is just way too much to overcome.
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I'm more referring to the fact that you can turn a corner on a waiting lvl 2 lmg and get vaporized before you can get away.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point here, Steve, is that if the marines have an entire team of jetpack HMG/SG then you either a) are beyond terrible at killing nodes b) have 2 hives, 3-4 RT's and lots of lifeforms or c) got massively outskilled and are losing to a better team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno if you're a euro or something so you don't see it, but Reflect for example can res control on like 4 nodes, and then its an arms race where inevitably you lose the res to fade before they lose the now measly 20 res late game to put up another jetpack. Res control is a great deal harder when they're out on the field also, remember.
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C) means you got raped, better luck next time.
Claiming that early game lerks are "paper" just means that you need to stop playing public and learn how the game works against players who actually know what they're doing.
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Hehehe...too easy.
And just as a quick FYI american teams are bad. All of them. Since exi and terror left the scene there have been no impressive american teams at all.
Anyway, OWN? beat knife in scrims, which says a lot about how much you should read in to <b>PRACTICE</b> games...
You guys need to stop assuming that the lerk was intended to be the no-hitbox tanking machine that it was in 3.1 and adapt to the new version, it isn't bad you just aren't using it how it is supposed to be used, evidently.
And just as a quick FYI american teams are bad. All of them. Since exi and terror left the scene there have been no impressive american teams at all.
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No-hitbox tanking machine? I could shoot it fine, Phil, Parche, or whatever. Granted it was hard for me with an lmg, but if you, for example, had a comm that could med worth a damn it'd be close. Plus there's only a handful of players that were even in that category. A nice blanket bash of the US scene, well done, especially when maybe <i>you</i> should've adapted before the game was dumbed down for you in this aspect.
Xen vs nL last ENSL was extremely close, even with the ping difference it was anyone's game, as my best recent example. I'm probably wasting my time because a statement like that is just made to troll people. For shame.
Yes because keeping your distance and sporing from vents gets you killed oh-so-easily doesn't it .... fade babysitter? learn to parasite and you won't get ambushed. That's obviously the problem - Charlie you need to buff teamwork next patch yeah?
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Your sarcasm is cute. Unfortunately, you're pretty much clueless, both in terms of US skill and how to lerk. Lerks are capable of decent early game support, but rapidly drop off once the midgame starts to pick up. In 3.1 lerks were fully capable of pretty much hanging with the marine game at any point. Now they don't have an option to even support against things like jetpacks. Lerks could effectively pick off jets in 3.1, it's simply not an option in 3.2. Even support past the 10 minute mark is near impossible. It's entirely possible to die in the first 10 minutes too, given that a solo LMG can kill a lerk with W1 with very little issue. Hell a W0 LMG can kill one without issue. Lerks are not meant to be "sit in the vent and spore" lifeforms, that's why they got buffed enough in 3.0 betas to be able to effectively fight marines closeup with bite and manuveuring. Unfortunately, pancaking was noticed relatively quickly and lerking has been played around that ever since.
Most of the current generation of players have known nothing but celerity/focus/carapace lerking, no one remembers being a vent hugging regen/adren lerk. In fact I was almost booted off lerking for exigent because I used cara/celerity since it was too "risky." The current changes to lerk are far too restricting, given you can't effectively maneuver to support fades. Golden and myself have been saying the lerk was underpowered in 3.2 PTs for many months, and once it got released to the public, <b>gasp</b>, the other good lerks of NS, like milo and steve, said much the same. Is it possible to lerk in 3.2 comp ns? Yea. Is it even remotely effective past 10 minutes, and is it entirely likely you'll get LMG'd before that? No to the former, yes to the latter. It's not a point of "adapting" (which is a rather poor argument when talking about a balance problem, I'm pretty sure everyone in this conversation that's a competitive lerk knows how to play), it's about the fact that lerks have no way of avoiding damage once they're noticed, since there's no horizontal movement ability besides a slight zigzag or straightlining, and obviously vertical movement is rather restricted.
Many of the players from exigent and terror still play NS in clans, including myself. American NS is just as strong as EU, and you don't even play on a decent Euro team, so why are you bothering to flame us? That's some poor form indeed.
Just kidding, yes Reflect did give us a run for our money. Terror stop playing NS because being on top for them was no longer fun.
They got burned out, plain and simple.
We did beat Mustang in the 3v1 match on CS:S. Thus making us the top team for source.
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<img src="http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3225/shot00011ec1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Lerks were fine in 3.1.
I love how not having the spare time to commit to high-level clan play means that I don't have a foot to stand on when discussing the competetive scene and/or the game balance.You of all people should appreciate how hypocritical that statement was TheAdj with the break you took from NS.
Seriously though, lerk is fine until about 6-7 minutes, so perhaps increase the vertical speed cap once the second hive is up? Won't go down well with the devs but the timing is about right.