1. If you're addicted to the game and there are negative impacts on your life 2. If the opportunity costs (i.e. things you could have done instead of playing the game) will make you regret having played it later down the line 3. If you're not getting any benefit out of playing or you're not aware of the benefits
While that does make sense, at the same time, it is increasingly harder and harder to find a server that isn't full of, well, pub combat pro-stars. Given, with the forums down forever and (little) work done to update the game for the new release, most people quit playing due to other plausible issues with the game. At the same time, aliens keep getting nerfed which requires greater skill to play aliens. Lets face it, aliens need to stop getting nerfed. The few players who are decent at aliens that still play this game, well it doesn't affect most of us greatly. However, the more you play on servers in this dying game, the more new people you encounter. This just makes it easier and easier to have a 5:1 or 6:1 K:D. Then, the funniest part is, most the servers have block scripts. Whatever you want to say about scripts, Cal allowed them so therefore as far as i'm concerned they're part of the game. Most of the "dead" servers that don't allow scripts are going to stay dead because, at least in the past, they're leaving a huge portion of players out that use them. I see very few people who can bhop as a skulk without them. That combined with the nerfed aliens = death for aliens.
Anyways, whatever it was Xtc talked about in his original post, i definately agree. I just can't remember now because it took me 40 minutes to read all these replies haha.
<3 puzl for finally unlocking this, it needs to be discussed.
What's the point of playing a game, that you only enjoy when playing competitively. In this scene, where you have to wait 75% of the time. Be it because the other team doesnt have players on the server yet, or that they are simply at work/school/sleeping due to different timezone that you are in.
Why not simply play another game, which you can play everytime YOU want to.
I don't really care about imbalances/bugs of the game, if there even is any at this point. The game itself is fun to play, waiting all day/staying up late to play it, really drains the fun out of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Classic servers are becoming extinct and combat is a pretty popular mode of mindless gameplay that anybody can get sucked into regardless of skill. Everyone can blow and they'd still have fun doing it, that's how it is for any popular game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't have any fun in combat, and its because I have no skill. When you have to go up against guys who are level 25 when you're level 8, whats the point? I remember vanilla combat being pretty good, but I've seen 1.04 servers more often than vanilla combat servers.
Personally, I don't think its just nostalgia that leads me to like 1.04 over the current version. The game back then was completely different. I just like the gameplay mechanic of 1.04 better than 3.0-3.1.
I don't think Combat is really a problem. You might say that it divides the community because if there wasn't CO, the CO junkies would play the real game. Well, in most cases, that's probably not true - the CO players probably wouldn't play at all if it wasn't for CO.
I like CO occasionally because it lets you practice without putting your whole team at risk. If you fade in NS and suck at it and die, you're going to contribute to your entire team losing. So to learn how to fade well, you'd have to help tens of teams lose while you try to learn to not die as a fade. In CO, you can get the feel for it much faster, since you don't lose your life form when you die.
That said, I think CO was designed to be a 'gateway' game to regular NS, and I don't think it's accomplishing that. It was meant for people to play it to get a feel for how NS works, so that people would then want to play the actual game - but most people end up just sticking to CO...
I like CO occasionally because it lets you practice without putting your whole team at risk. If you fade in NS and suck at it and die, you're going to contribute to your entire team losing. So to learn how to fade well, you'd have to help tens of teams lose while you try to learn to not die as a fade. In CO, you can get the feel for it much faster, since you don't lose your life form when you die.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, people who learn to fade in CO learn wrong anyways. Learning to fade with every upgrade makes NS fades even worse than one that just doesn't know how to play. People who expect to be able to get Carapace, Regeneration, Focus, Scent of Fear, Cloaking, Celerity, Adren, and Silence as a fade, are just bad. This is where combat fails. If combat only allowed you to get the upgrades you can in classic, in an order with a similar point system, then it WOULD be a better "gateway" as you called it. We did this for a while at NSA, we patterned a new point system which actually evened the games out with over 1000 games played on the combat server with about a 53%-47% ratio. Problem is, it took forever to finally figure out that balance, and if the Devs were actually to spend that much time working on this game, well, I would frankly be shocked. That would mean they stopped working on everything else and focused on a game that, for the last year at least, was pretty much left to a few big communities to keep running. Also, at the same time, it still didn't do away with the 40 upgrade fades or any of that ###### "menu" crap most servers now a day have. All of that random junk is what destroys combat and makes most players terrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1606151:date=Feb 13 2007, 01:56 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Feb 13 2007, 01:56 PM) [snapback]1606151[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think CO was designed to be a 'gateway' game to regular NS, and I don't think it's accomplishing that. It was meant for people to play it to get a feel for how NS works, so that people would then want to play the actual game - but most people end up just sticking to CO... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You win at message boards.
They stick to CO, among other reasons, because NS has a learning curve that hasn't been addressed in... who even knows how many iterations of the game. On top of that monumental (but fundamentally positive) obstacle, it doesn't scale with players. How do you expect people to play a game that's completely distorted with 4v4 players? How far would CS have gotten if the ct's could buy AW(P|M?)s immediately after the pistol round when there were less than 5 players?
I remember back when 3.0 beta first came out I joined =]DV[=, a clan that has since left the NS scene, and our server was on I think gamespy's top played server list. The reason I personally think we had a server that was so much enjoyed and played on by the community was because we ran vanilla co whenever we weren't running NS. I remember the day our clan installed extra levels on the server, and people in the clan couldn't stand to play co on our server anymore because extra levels attracted a horrible player base. Our server shortly thereafter, shut down.
Do I think NS is dying? Yes Do I still like the game? Yes Will I be sad to see it go? Yes
I honestly believe the extra levels combat plug in is what is killing NS, because the player base it attracts is one that annoys the crap out of old vets, causing old vets to leave, and eventually shuts down server.
I hate extra levels, it's kill(ing)(ed) NS in my opinion
if, god forbid, someone new actually joins on non-co map, how many of you take the time to tell them WTH is going on? most of the time, I see players, instead of HELPING newbies, rag on them hardcore for being new.
WTH KICK NEWGUY152 RES ###### 80 RES WTHFFFFFF
and ish like the that.
The first time I quit I got tired of NS.
The second time I quit I got tired of NS.
Now, I don't play as much because my internet sucks.
If you have no idea how to play a game, then <i>expect</i> to be treated as though you have no idea what you're doing, for obvious reasons.
I'll agree with you that sometimes certain players act like ###### to newbies, but think: new players have hudhints that tell them "listen to your commander" and "to evolve right click...". If they have any wit at all, they can follow those hints and see what helps and hurts their chances of winning and follow it.
There's a difference between a player who is eager to learn a complex game, asking for advice and trying to be a contributing mechanism (the kind that's actually worth helping), and a player who's running around with zero regard for his team, ramboing, being completely unconstructive in any way, shape, or form, and acting like he's playing a single player game.
Exeperience has nothing to do with that. The latter form of player deserves to be treated with no respect, because he's not good for a damn thing. That's why they call it "a team"
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2007
First off sorry for the negative first post. I just got done playing maybe one of the worst games in my life on a pub server that night.
I'm pretty suprised the topic wasn't deleted/locked. In addition, I was suprised at the responses I got and how some people actually agreed with me although I was being a complete idiot when coming about my issues with this game.
Pub NS has gotten so bad over the years. Its not getting any better either. Yeah it was true most of us were ######es back in 1.04, but with the new changes and game changes only to make competitive NS better, PUBNS has just gotten worse and worse.
Competitive NS was pretty enjoyable for 3.2, but with the lack of teams/scrimms there is no competitive NS, and we are left with PUBNS which is basically just so bad right now and whoever disagrees with me thinking PUBNS is good go refresh your serverlist and see how many level 50 combat servers there are.
Fix PUBNS and stop worrying about competitive play
<!--quoteo(post=1606319:date=Feb 13 2007, 10:45 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Feb 13 2007, 10:45 PM) [snapback]1606319[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'll agree with you that sometimes vets act like ###### to new players, but think: new players have hudhints that tell them "listen to your commander" and "to evolve right click...". If they have any wit at all, they can follow those hints and see what helps and hurts their chances of winning and follow it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> more often than not it's these forum goers who think they know how to play ns that belittle the new players. stop blaming it on vets because almost all of the people that i know who play on pubs say/type nothing at all.
and lol harrower. with that attitude, it's amazing anyone comes and tries out NS. why should anyone learning a game have to "work" for it? If I tried out a game, and it was confusing, I don't think I'd stick with it. I'd rahter just play whatever game I was playing before.
And I love the general hatred toward PubNS here, while if you went and asked what pubNS players think is wrong with NS, i'm willing the most of them would blame "competetive" players.
lol that is ABSOLUTELY true. Theres no way they can deny it either. Every elitist a-hole on the forums is the guy on the pub who says nothing except 'WHERES MY F'ING MEDPACK' and generally boasts about having everyone muted.
And on this point, dont even try to flame me (obviously its your next step), because half of them enjoy going into servers saying 'how do i buy a gun' only to have *me* or another decent ns-lover go into detail explaining it to them. Until i notice they're rushing the middle hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1606332:date=Feb 13 2007, 11:05 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Feb 13 2007, 11:05 PM) [snapback]1606332[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Fix PUBNS first, and competitive ns will follow. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you test, balance and fix an enviornment where the variables are so inconsistent that any test run for pubs would be null and void as the margin of error varies from game to game significantly?
<!--quoteo(post=1606358:date=Feb 14 2007, 12:20 AM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Feb 14 2007, 12:20 AM) [snapback]1606358[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and lol harrower. with that attitude, it's amazing anyone comes and tries out NS. why should anyone learning a game have to "work" for it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because, like chess or starcraft, it's fun to have a game that's more complex than counterstrike.
<!--quoteo(post=1606384:date=Feb 14 2007, 03:07 AM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Feb 14 2007, 03:07 AM) [snapback]1606384[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Because, like chess or starcraft, it's fun to have a game that's more complex than counterstrike. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may like complexity, but most people don't. Playing chess competetively, I've seen tons of people get tired of it and quit because it was too confusing and they had to work too hard to get good.
There was a web-based game I used to play called Raging Universe. When I learned it, it was rather simple. But, after a game, or round, or season (turn? I dont know) they made a bunch of changes, introducing tons of new factors. Ordinarily I liked this game, but the introduction of new factors made it seem silly, and I didn't have the inclination to learn.
Take NS: when it upgraded some 2 and a half years ago, I ended up quitting. I had been sort-of inactive prior to this, and when the update came out, a whole bunch of new stuff was introduced. This meant I had to re-learn all the old stuff, and the new stuff. When it came down to it, I could continue playing science and industry easily, or take a few weeks to get the hang of NS. I ended up choosing SI.
Everyone (ALMOST everyone) who plays NS has come from a different game. There's most likely no reason for this person to quit their game; they're just giving NS a shot. And for them to truly like, yeah, you're right, they need to have a level of desire for complexity. But there comes a point where it may just be too much to take in, or too high a level of complexity. The work just doesn't seem to have a real tangible result. Those who do want to try to switch to NS can very often be met with rude, vulgar comments, and telling someone who's already pushing themselves to try to like this game to ###### off, well, that's not gonna help them push any harder.
<!--quoteo(post=1606516:date=Feb 14 2007, 03:28 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Feb 14 2007, 03:28 PM) [snapback]1606516[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So on your logic, the next release should implement autoaim so that players aren't turned off by the difficulty they encounter. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already have auto-aim, it's called "aimbot.exe" On a second note, I am pretty sure that was the most retarded retort I have heard all week. By simpler I am pretty sure he was talking about all the commands and all the things to do "i.e. upgrading everything, dropping stuff." Perhaps it should all be pre-dropped and we just build it and kill things. It's like a half-half between combat and classic. Or, maybe, people could just spend 20 minutes to learn how to use the +build command and listen to the commanders or intelligent team members (except rapier7, nobody should ever listen to him)
<!--quoteo(post=1606383:date=Feb 13 2007, 11:05 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Feb 13 2007, 11:05 PM) [snapback]1606383[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How do you test, balance and fix an enviornment where the variables are so inconsistent that any test run for pubs would be null and void as the margin of error varies from game to game significantly? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You make the performance of all players more predictable by making the game easier to play so that a pro player will play quite similar to a way an average player does. And once you achieve this, balancing becomes easier, since your statistics will be much more similar than bouncy.
And I certainly do not believe the goal is to make the game simpler, or remove upgrades, etc. It's just that there's a high requirement of PHYSICAL TWITCH skill such as aiming at "faster than CS players" fades or being the fade and flawlessly switching between slash, blink and metabolize. I think that seperates players more than this "simple" talk.
We have to stop rewarding twitchers, yes it gives you a advantage when put into that position, but if your playing ns correctly you shouldnt need to be a twitcher to kill your target, your last 16 moves should of been to plan a easy instant deadly kill with no room for error.
there are a few ways to teach newbs, note not noobs, they normaly cant be saved but newbs usaly can, alot of it seams to be done on a one on one basis, a lot of little progressive trust events need to happen.
you would be suprise at how many dont know what the q key does.
start small and work your way up, build a army of follows, you will find the next noob to come to said server you play on and calls you noob, you wont even need to defend your self.
i can agree in some way with the op that there are certain repetative maps and rambo play styles are getting stale, but just cos of this thread i am going to go out and find ten new places to plant oc's and nests to herd rine flow into a final deadly victorious new trap.
but i do still agree the same three maps i see over and over again, i just want it to cycle, doesnt effect me ill just go play on a diff server, to teach newbs all over again, just a note i wont help a newb not willing to help them selves, lazy newbs wont get no satisfaction from this gorgie.
i also stick to vanilla servers, but still non of this is reason to quit.
<!--quoteo(post=1606715:date=Feb 15 2007, 04:29 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Feb 15 2007, 04:29 AM) [snapback]1606715[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You make the performance of all players more predictable by making the game easier to play so that a pro player will play quite similar to a way an average player does. And once you achieve this, balancing becomes easier, since your statistics will be much more similar than bouncy.
And I certainly do not believe the goal is to make the game simpler, or remove upgrades, etc. It's just that there's a high requirement of PHYSICAL TWITCH skill such as aiming at "faster than CS players" fades or being the fade and flawlessly switching between slash, blink and metabolize. I think that seperates players more than this "simple" talk. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if a pro player plays as well an average player, they really aren't pro are they. Dumbing down the game that is supposed to have an infinite amount of strategies? Dumbing it down will make less effective strategies of the overall pool of the 3 or 4 that exist now for either side.
What happens if you dumb down the game but it is not enough? How do you know how much to drop the skill level to an "optimal" level?
If ns isn't the game you want to play, what should be done?
I'd love to know which way you want the game developed. Most of the clanners, including me, would like to have the ns as skill based as it is now if not more skill demanding. There should be more tactics and better balance.
But the rest of you. I understand that the game is pretty rough for the beginners and people who don't care/have time to play ns often. What do you want from ns?
For the pure team effort there is always use for res cappers and gorges. I don't think there's enough of teamworking players to organise many ambushes or so. Clanning fixes this one. I don't know how the teamworking part could be emphasised much more as it has so much unused potential already.
For the tactical gameplay there are some public tacs, but its limited to the avaible players and their ability to follow orders. Clanning has more options, but its also quite difficult to pull of a bit unusual tactics because the opposition is tough. I think ns isn't that much of a repetitive game though. There are a plenty of close calls that decide the course of the game. 3.2 was a big improvement here.
For example what should the skill dependancy reduction result in? I'm quite confident its written somewhere in this thread already, but could you state clearly what should the ns development aim at?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I personally like games with deep skill curves. That is not the problem with NS, in my opinion, it is one of its strengths. I do believe that such skills should be intuitive though. The bizarre engine quirks that many players depend on should be replaced with intuitive alternatives. This kind of change is not 'dumbing down', it is 'smartening up'. It is replace skills that are simply learned through repition, with skills that can be observed and immitated - the people who think their way through the game should learn it by practice, whereas some of the current tricks in NS have to be explained. The only way you will stumble upon the crouch-double-jump trick in NS is either by accident, or by being shown. I think this is what SmoodCroozn is getting at. Some of you guys are just looking for disagreement where there is none. There is no reason a game can't be both intuitive and highly skill based.
<!--quoteo(post=1606841:date=Feb 15 2007, 11:16 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Feb 15 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]1606841[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I personally like games with deep skill curves. That is not the problem with NS, in my opinion, it is one of its strengths. I do believe that such skills should be intuitive though. The bizarre engine quirks that many players depend on should be replaced with intuitive alternatives. This kind of change is not 'dumbing down', it is 'smartening up'. It is replace skills that are simply learned through repition, with skills that can be observed and immitated - the people who think their way through the game should learn it by practice, whereas some of the current tricks in NS have to be explained. The only way you will stumble upon the crouch-double-jump trick in NS is either by accident, or by being shown. I think this is what SmoodCroozn is getting at. Some of you guys are just looking for disagreement where there is none. There is no reason a game can't be both intuitive and highly skill based. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes i agree with that but since smoodcroozn also wants blink to be removed it just looks like hes trying to remove anything skillbased so that tactics are the only thing that matters.
I dont even think twitch aim and reflexes matters that much in this game, alien can easily be learned just by watching good players(except for bunnyhopping which needs some explaining) and marine is more about gameknowledge and experiance than aim, which is why i can get 50-10 ratios on australian servers from europe.
Sure there is a deep skill curve and lots to learn but the twitch skill needed to learn and get good is low. Atleast it seems low to me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> dont know how good average players are or where i stand compared to them but ive never considered myself having any innate fps skills.
Comments
1. If you're addicted to the game and there are negative impacts on your life
2. If the opportunity costs (i.e. things you could have done instead of playing the game) will make you regret having played it later down the line
3. If you're not getting any benefit out of playing or you're not aware of the benefits
While that does make sense, at the same time, it is increasingly harder and harder to find a server that isn't full of, well, pub combat pro-stars. Given, with the forums down forever and (little) work done to update the game for the new release, most people quit playing due to other plausible issues with the game. At the same time, aliens keep getting nerfed which requires greater skill to play aliens. Lets face it, aliens need to stop getting nerfed. The few players who are decent at aliens that still play this game, well it doesn't affect most of us greatly. However, the more you play on servers in this dying game, the more new people you encounter. This just makes it easier and easier to have a 5:1 or 6:1 K:D. Then, the funniest part is, most the servers have block scripts. Whatever you want to say about scripts, Cal allowed them so therefore as far as i'm concerned they're part of the game. Most of the "dead" servers that don't allow scripts are going to stay dead because, at least in the past, they're leaving a huge portion of players out that use them. I see very few people who can bhop as a skulk without them. That combined with the nerfed aliens = death for aliens.
Anyways, whatever it was Xtc talked about in his original post, i definately agree. I just can't remember now because it took me 40 minutes to read all these replies haha.
<3 puzl for finally unlocking this, it needs to be discussed.
Regardless, I think Saraph hit the nail pretty hard with the jackhammer. 1.04 was not that great and most of what people remember is just nostalgia.
Why not simply play another game, which you can play everytime YOU want to.
I don't really care about imbalances/bugs of the game, if there even is any at this point. The game itself is fun to play, waiting all day/staying up late to play it, really drains the fun out of it.
I don't have any fun in combat, and its because I have no skill. When you have to go up against guys who are level 25 when you're level 8, whats the point? I remember vanilla combat being pretty good, but I've seen 1.04 servers more often than vanilla combat servers.
Personally, I don't think its just nostalgia that leads me to like 1.04 over the current version. The game back then was completely different. I just like the gameplay mechanic of 1.04 better than 3.0-3.1.
I like CO occasionally because it lets you practice without putting your whole team at risk. If you fade in NS and suck at it and die, you're going to contribute to your entire team losing. So to learn how to fade well, you'd have to help tens of teams lose while you try to learn to not die as a fade. In CO, you can get the feel for it much faster, since you don't lose your life form when you die.
That said, I think CO was designed to be a 'gateway' game to regular NS, and I don't think it's accomplishing that. It was meant for people to play it to get a feel for how NS works, so that people would then want to play the actual game - but most people end up just sticking to CO...
I like CO occasionally because it lets you practice without putting your whole team at risk. If you fade in NS and suck at it and die, you're going to contribute to your entire team losing. So to learn how to fade well, you'd have to help tens of teams lose while you try to learn to not die as a fade. In CO, you can get the feel for it much faster, since you don't lose your life form when you die.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, people who learn to fade in CO learn wrong anyways. Learning to fade with every upgrade makes NS fades even worse than one that just doesn't know how to play. People who expect to be able to get Carapace, Regeneration, Focus, Scent of Fear, Cloaking, Celerity, Adren, and Silence as a fade, are just bad. This is where combat fails. If combat only allowed you to get the upgrades you can in classic, in an order with a similar point system, then it WOULD be a better "gateway" as you called it. We did this for a while at NSA, we patterned a new point system which actually evened the games out with over 1000 games played on the combat server with about a 53%-47% ratio. Problem is, it took forever to finally figure out that balance, and if the Devs were actually to spend that much time working on this game, well, I would frankly be shocked. That would mean they stopped working on everything else and focused on a game that, for the last year at least, was pretty much left to a few big communities to keep running. Also, at the same time, it still didn't do away with the 40 upgrade fades or any of that ###### "menu" crap most servers now a day have. All of that random junk is what destroys combat and makes most players terrible.
//endrant//
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You win at message boards.
They stick to CO, among other reasons, because NS has a learning curve that hasn't been addressed in... who even knows how many iterations of the game. On top of that monumental (but fundamentally positive) obstacle, it doesn't scale with players. How do you expect people to play a game that's completely distorted with 4v4 players? How far would CS have gotten if the ct's could buy AW(P|M?)s immediately after the pistol round when there were less than 5 players?
Do I think NS is dying? Yes
Do I still like the game? Yes
Will I be sad to see it go? Yes
I honestly believe the extra levels combat plug in is what is killing NS, because the player base it attracts is one that annoys the crap out of old vets, causing old vets to leave, and eventually shuts down server.
I hate extra levels, it's kill(ing)(ed) NS in my opinion
WTH KICK NEWGUY152 RES ###### 80 RES WTHFFFFFF
and ish like the that.
The first time I quit I got tired of NS.
The second time I quit I got tired of NS.
Now, I don't play as much because my internet sucks.
I'll agree with you that sometimes certain players act like ###### to newbies, but think: new players have hudhints that tell them "listen to your commander" and "to evolve right click...". If they have any wit at all, they can follow those hints and see what helps and hurts their chances of winning and follow it.
There's a difference between a player who is eager to learn a complex game, asking for advice and trying to be a contributing mechanism (the kind that's actually worth helping), and a player who's running around with zero regard for his team, ramboing, being completely unconstructive in any way, shape, or form, and acting like he's playing a single player game.
Exeperience has nothing to do with that. The latter form of player deserves to be treated with no respect, because he's not good for a damn thing. That's why they call it "a team"
I'm pretty suprised the topic wasn't deleted/locked. In addition, I was suprised at the responses I got and how some people actually agreed with me although I was being a complete idiot when coming about my issues with this game.
Pub NS has gotten so bad over the years. Its not getting any better either. Yeah it was true most of us were ######es back in 1.04, but with the new changes and game changes only to make competitive NS better, PUBNS has just gotten worse and worse.
Competitive NS was pretty enjoyable for 3.2, but with the lack of teams/scrimms there is no competitive NS, and we are left with PUBNS which is basically just so bad right now and whoever disagrees with me thinking PUBNS is good go refresh your serverlist and see how many level 50 combat servers there are.
Fix PUBNS and stop worrying about competitive play
I'll agree with you that sometimes vets act like ###### to new players, but think: new players have hudhints that tell them "listen to your commander" and "to evolve right click...". If they have any wit at all, they can follow those hints and see what helps and hurts their chances of winning and follow it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
more often than not it's these forum goers who think they know how to play ns that belittle the new players. stop blaming it on vets because almost all of the people that i know who play on pubs say/type nothing at all.
vet's ignore other players in games.
"forum goers" bash on them.
and lol harrower. with that attitude, it's amazing anyone comes and tries out NS. why should anyone learning a game have to "work" for it? If I tried out a game, and it was confusing, I don't think I'd stick with it. I'd rahter just play whatever game I was playing before.
And I love the general hatred toward PubNS here, while if you went and asked what pubNS players think is wrong with NS, i'm willing the most of them would blame "competetive" players.
And on this point, dont even try to flame me (obviously its your next step), because half of them enjoy going into servers saying 'how do i buy a gun' only to have *me* or another decent ns-lover go into detail explaining it to them. Until i notice they're rushing the middle hive.
Fix PUBNS first, and competitive ns will follow.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you test, balance and fix an enviornment where the variables are so inconsistent that any test run for pubs would be null and void as the margin of error varies from game to game significantly?
Because, like chess or starcraft, it's fun to have a game that's more complex than counterstrike.
Because, like chess or starcraft, it's fun to have a game that's more complex than counterstrike.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may like complexity, but most people don't. Playing chess competetively, I've seen tons of people get tired of it and quit because it was too confusing and they had to work too hard to get good.
There was a web-based game I used to play called Raging Universe. When I learned it, it was rather simple. But, after a game, or round, or season (turn? I dont know) they made a bunch of changes, introducing tons of new factors. Ordinarily I liked this game, but the introduction of new factors made it seem silly, and I didn't have the inclination to learn.
Take NS: when it upgraded some 2 and a half years ago, I ended up quitting. I had been sort-of inactive prior to this, and when the update came out, a whole bunch of new stuff was introduced. This meant I had to re-learn all the old stuff, and the new stuff. When it came down to it, I could continue playing science and industry easily, or take a few weeks to get the hang of NS. I ended up choosing SI.
Everyone (ALMOST everyone) who plays NS has come from a different game. There's most likely no reason for this person to quit their game; they're just giving NS a shot. And for them to truly like, yeah, you're right, they need to have a level of desire for complexity. But there comes a point where it may just be too much to take in, or too high a level of complexity. The work just doesn't seem to have a real tangible result. Those who do want to try to switch to NS can very often be met with rude, vulgar comments, and telling someone who's already pushing themselves to try to like this game to ###### off, well, that's not gonna help them push any harder.
So on your logic, the next release should implement autoaim so that players aren't turned off by the difficulty they encounter.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already have auto-aim, it's called "aimbot.exe" On a second note, I am pretty sure that was the most retarded retort I have heard all week. By simpler I am pretty sure he was talking about all the commands and all the things to do "i.e. upgrading everything, dropping stuff." Perhaps it should all be pre-dropped and we just build it and kill things. It's like a half-half between combat and classic. Or, maybe, people could just spend 20 minutes to learn how to use the +build command and listen to the commanders or intelligent team members (except rapier7, nobody should ever listen to him)
How do you test, balance and fix an enviornment where the variables are so inconsistent that any test run for pubs would be null and void as the margin of error varies from game to game significantly?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You make the performance of all players more predictable by making the game easier to play so that a pro player will play quite similar to a way an average player does. And once you achieve this, balancing becomes easier, since your statistics will be much more similar than bouncy.
And I certainly do not believe the goal is to make the game simpler, or remove upgrades, etc. It's just that there's a high requirement of PHYSICAL TWITCH skill such as aiming at "faster than CS players" fades or being the fade and flawlessly switching between slash, blink and metabolize. I think that seperates players more than this "simple" talk.
there are a few ways to teach newbs, note not noobs, they normaly cant be saved but newbs usaly can,
alot of it seams to be done on a one on one basis, a lot of little progressive trust events need to happen.
you would be suprise at how many dont know what the q key does.
start small and work your way up, build a army of follows, you will find the next noob to come to said server you play on and calls you noob, you wont even need to defend your self.
i can agree in some way with the op that there are certain repetative maps and rambo play styles are getting stale, but just cos of this thread i am going to go out and find ten new places to plant oc's and nests to herd rine flow into a final deadly victorious new trap.
but i do still agree the same three maps i see over and over again, i just want it to cycle, doesnt effect me ill just go play on a diff server, to teach newbs all over again, just a note i wont help a newb not willing to help them selves, lazy newbs wont get no satisfaction from this gorgie.
i also stick to vanilla servers, but still non of this is reason to quit.
You make the performance of all players more predictable by making the game easier to play so that a pro player will play quite similar to a way an average player does. And once you achieve this, balancing becomes easier, since your statistics will be much more similar than bouncy.
And I certainly do not believe the goal is to make the game simpler, or remove upgrades, etc. It's just that there's a high requirement of PHYSICAL TWITCH skill such as aiming at "faster than CS players" fades or being the fade and flawlessly switching between slash, blink and metabolize. I think that seperates players more than this "simple" talk.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if a pro player plays as well an average player, they really aren't pro are they. Dumbing down the game that is supposed to have an infinite amount of strategies? Dumbing it down will make less effective strategies of the overall pool of the 3 or 4 that exist now for either side.
What happens if you dumb down the game but it is not enough? How do you know how much to drop the skill level to an "optimal" level?
I'd love to know which way you want the game developed. Most of the clanners, including me, would like to have the ns as skill based as it is now if not more skill demanding. There should be more tactics and better balance.
But the rest of you. I understand that the game is pretty rough for the beginners and people who don't care/have time to play ns often. What do you want from ns?
For the pure team effort there is always use for res cappers and gorges. I don't think there's enough of teamworking players to organise many ambushes or so. Clanning fixes this one. I don't know how the teamworking part could be emphasised much more as it has so much unused potential already.
For the tactical gameplay there are some public tacs, but its limited to the avaible players and their ability to follow orders. Clanning has more options, but its also quite difficult to pull of a bit unusual tactics because the opposition is tough. I think ns isn't that much of a repetitive game though. There are a plenty of close calls that decide the course of the game. 3.2 was a big improvement here.
For example what should the skill dependancy reduction result in? I'm quite confident its written somewhere in this thread already, but could you state clearly what should the ns development aim at?
I personally like games with deep skill curves. That is not the problem with NS, in my opinion, it is one of its strengths. I do believe that such skills should be intuitive though. The bizarre engine quirks that many players depend on should be replaced with intuitive alternatives. This kind of change is not 'dumbing down', it is 'smartening up'. It is replace skills that are simply learned through repition, with skills that can be observed and immitated - the people who think their way through the game should learn it by practice, whereas some of the current tricks in NS have to be explained. The only way you will stumble upon the crouch-double-jump trick in NS is either by accident, or by being shown. I think this is what SmoodCroozn is getting at. Some of you guys are just looking for disagreement where there is none. There is no reason a game can't be both intuitive and highly skill based.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes i agree with that but since smoodcroozn also wants blink to be removed it just looks like hes trying to remove anything skillbased so that tactics are the only thing that matters.
I dont even think twitch aim and reflexes matters that much in this game, alien can easily be learned just by watching good players(except for bunnyhopping which needs some explaining) and marine is more about gameknowledge and experiance than aim, which is why i can get 50-10 ratios on australian servers from europe.
Sure there is a deep skill curve and lots to learn but the twitch skill needed to learn and get good is low.
Atleast it seems low to me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> dont know how good average players are or where i stand compared to them but ive never considered myself having any innate fps skills.