Skill System is Good

NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
edited February 2015 in NS2 General Discussion
I launch ns2. I join a server that was empty but had an equal sign for skill, not that it means anything if empty. I joined TGNS chuckle. Look at it after I joined.
A393B7B35D5BB3BE41D5C866F9431BE93F00F030

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Comments

  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    I just see problems with a favorite or two.

    On a serious note, has the skill system reset?
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    RapGod wrote: »
    I just see problems with a favorite or two.

    On a serious note, has the skill system reset?

    One of those favorites I never play anymore at so I don't know why it is favorited still. The others, don't be judging.
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  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    james888 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    I just see problems with a favorite or two.

    On a serious note, has the skill system reset?

    One of those favorites I never play anymore at so I don't know why it is favorited still. The others, don't be judging.

    :-p
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  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @james888‌ doesn't that mean you are uber elite?? I have the opposite problem, all servers are above me in skill. Actually, haven't been on since the reset, so will have to see.
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  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    my skill factor is now 0. reset, I assume.
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2014
    Cannon_FodderAUS wrote: »
    @james888‌ doesn't that mean you are uber elite?? I have the opposite problem, all servers are above me in skill. Actually, haven't been on since the reset, so will have to see.

    Definitely not even elite. Later in the night the more skilled players come on.

    What makes me sad though, is a join an empty server and it goes from = to down down.
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  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2014
    @james888‌ doesn't that mean you are uber elite?? I have the opposite problem, all servers are above me in skill. Actually, haven't been on since the reset, so will have to see.

    sorry double post.
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  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just had a thought, now the skill has been reset, we can see how many unique active players there are in a month. If skill haven't moved, then non active. That would be a good metric to know.
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  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    with the previous system on hive (and probably this one too) it takes a while to process the matches. maybe your skill was evaluated during the time it took you to join the server?
    maybe retry the experiment and explicitly look at your skill value before and after join just to be sure wether this is actually a genuine bug or not.
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  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    Is the server whitelist still the same in 267 after the reset?
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  • KamamuraKamamura Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Members, Reinforced - Gold
    The skill system is almost as useful as babblers, rifle bash and fade stab and vortex.
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  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    The skill system is almost as useful as babblers, rifle bash and fade stab and vortex.
    and just how can you judge that before it is even used? pre-reset doesn't count because that's basically values from the old system. post-reset, well... <1 day is ofc not enough for the system to converge especially considering there are many servers which are not whitelisted.
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I played 3 games today.

    Game 1) Lost in 10 minutes. KDA 6-2-4 with about 140 points. -316 skill
    Game 2) Won in about 20 minutes KDA 52-9-15 with about 510 points. +387 skill
    Game 3) Won in about 8 minutes KDA 21-7-4 with about 250 points. +320 skill

    Start of game skill level 0
    Start of game skill level -316
    Start of game 3 skill level +387
    Current skill level +320

    I get that i've only played 3 games, but why does it appear to just be taking the skill of the last game into account?
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    The system should become better in time when it gets more and more data.
    Last I asked the hive stats all got reset, so it simply needs new info.
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    DC_Darkling wrote: »
    The system should become better in time when it gets more and more data.
    Last I asked the hive stats all got reset, so it simply needs new info.

    But you'd think it would take an average of some description amongst all the individual skill scores from individual games. At the moment it's only taking the last game you played to display your global skill score.

    Why?
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  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    The new Skill System was fully implemented and reset yesterday. It will need a little time for it to settle.
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  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    i think because
    [...] This expresses our belief that until we know more about a player, their skill probably isn’t too high or too low.

    for reference, this is where it's from:
    original google doc
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  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited August 2014
    nachos wrote: »
    DC_Darkling wrote: »
    The system should become better in time when it gets more and more data.
    Last I asked the hive stats all got reset, so it simply needs new info.

    But you'd think it would take an average of some description amongst all the individual skill scores from individual games. At the moment it's only taking the last game you played to display your global skill score.

    Why?
    http://moultano.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/a-skill-ranking-system-for-natural-selection-2/
    After the game, we update each player’s skill by the product of what fraction of the game they played, and the difference between our prediction and what actually happened.

    Everytime you finish a round, it recalculates your new skill level. The algorithm already takes into account your previous skill level. So what you see in your hive stats history is the skill level you had at the end of each round. Thus, the last round being the most current one also indicates your current skill level.
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  • AlmightyGravesAlmightyGraves Join Date: 2012-12-16 Member: 175221Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    -374 skill. Is this intentional?
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  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Neoken wrote: »
    nachos wrote: »
    DC_Darkling wrote: »
    The system should become better in time when it gets more and more data.
    Last I asked the hive stats all got reset, so it simply needs new info.

    But you'd think it would take an average of some description amongst all the individual skill scores from individual games. At the moment it's only taking the last game you played to display your global skill score.

    Why?
    http://moultano.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/a-skill-ranking-system-for-natural-selection-2/
    After the game, we update each player’s skill by the product of what fraction of the game they played, and the difference between our prediction and what actually happened.

    Everytime you finish a round, it recalculates your new skill level. The algorithm already takes into account your previous skill level. So what you see in your hive stats history is the skill level you had at the end of each round. Thus, the last round being the most current one also indicates your current skill level.

    I was thinking it would do this, but that leaves one minor issue here:
    nachos wrote:
    Start of game skill level 0
    Start of game skill level -316
    Start of game 3 skill level +387
    Current skill level +320
    Wob appears to have lost 67 points by virtue of winning a game. Err....?
    Winning a massively stacked game still shouldn't remove points, it just shouldn't add very much (if any).
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Neoken wrote: »

    Everytime you finish a round, it recalculates your new skill level. The algorithm already takes into account your previous skill level. So what you see in your hive stats history is the skill level you had at the end of each round. Thus, the last round being the most current one also indicates your current skill level.

    So what you're saying is that hive stats is now tracking my "current skill" level history in all those games.
    E.G. Game 2 I started on -317 and gained 716 points to get to +387, then Game 3 I lost 67 points and ended on +320?
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  • PolskaKielbasaPolskaKielbasa Join Date: 2013-09-06 Member: 187917Members, Reinforced - Silver
    edited August 2014
    -387

    super ranking system :)

    I am worse than zero hehe
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I wonder how its implemented and how long it takes.
    Ive just reread moultano's blogpost and damn, thats a lot more math then I saw in his initial post. :D
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  • AnzestralAnzestral Join Date: 2013-05-21 Member: 185327Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    nachos wrote: »
    Game 1) Lost in 10 minutes. KDA 6-2-4 with about 140 points. -316 skill
    Game 2) Won in about 20 minutes KDA 52-9-15 with about 510 points. +387 skill
    Game 3) Won in about 8 minutes KDA 21-7-4 with about 250 points. +320 skill

    So the average points you get in a game have direct influence on your skill?
    That would mean outsmarting the enemy team in the early game for a quick clean victory will decrease skill points as compared to one hour long stalemates, wher you can get tons of points by playing fade and killing poor solo lmg marines over and over again? This is actually exactly the kind of NS2 games I LOVE. I hope that is not how this system works...
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  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Guys, give it a few weeks, once the system gets more data, and you play more rounds, it will even its self out,
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  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    @Anzestral‌
    thats indeed not how it works, take a look at the google doc linked in this thread for detailed info.
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    MaxAmus wrote: »
    Guys, give it a few weeks, once the system gets more data, and you play more rounds, it will even its self out,

    Please read.

    More data won't solve this issue. For some reason your current global skill score is based entirely on your last round. Unless CDT has scrapped recording each individual round and everything you see is a history of your global skill score, then it is broken. Global current skill score is currently only showing your LAST GAME PLAYED.

    At the moment getting more data won't solve anything because the hive is only taking into account the last round.
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Before the reset I was seeing nearly every server as VV (with a couple others being V, no = or ^), of course I still get my ass obliterated in some/most of them.
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  • StackdaddyStackdaddy California, U.S.A Join Date: 2013-10-08 Member: 188640Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Also, a heavily modded server I play on was being tracked on the hive statistics last night and the night before. Before this it wasn't being tracked and I don't know if this was intentional or if they relaxed the restrictions around allowing modded servers to be tracked by hive (And by heavily modded I mean onocide, modular exos, 20 player-count balance tweaks etc.).
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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    Roobubba wrote: »
    Neoken wrote: »
    nachos wrote: »
    DC_Darkling wrote: »
    The system should become better in time when it gets more and more data.
    Last I asked the hive stats all got reset, so it simply needs new info.

    But you'd think it would take an average of some description amongst all the individual skill scores from individual games. At the moment it's only taking the last game you played to display your global skill score.

    Why?
    http://moultano.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/a-skill-ranking-system-for-natural-selection-2/
    After the game, we update each player’s skill by the product of what fraction of the game they played, and the difference between our prediction and what actually happened.

    Everytime you finish a round, it recalculates your new skill level. The algorithm already takes into account your previous skill level. So what you see in your hive stats history is the skill level you had at the end of each round. Thus, the last round being the most current one also indicates your current skill level.

    I was thinking it would do this, but that leaves one minor issue here:
    nachos wrote:
    Start of game skill level 0
    Start of game skill level -316
    Start of game 3 skill level +387
    Current skill level +320
    Wob appears to have lost 67 points by virtue of winning a game. Err....?
    Winning a massively stacked game still shouldn't remove points, it just shouldn't add very much (if any).

    That does seem strange. The only thing I can think of is that they added a decay of some sort?

    There's a lot I don't know about how this is implemented. Was everyone started at literally zero? Or started at some constant offset that is displayed as zero? It doesn't matter that much between the two, except that in games where one team has more players than the other, the skill values have to be positive to predict that the team with more players will win. It would be best to constrain the skills so that they can never drop below zero and have some positive default value for new players.

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