tRes, pRes and Energy

SolitarioSolitario Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Posts: 245Members
edited April 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
do we really need 3 Res-Systems?
Reading thorugh the forum, I see a lot of people writing about balance.
Changing costs from pRes to tRes, from Energy to tRes, it get's really complicated and exotic.
It looks like tRes and pRes are a core feature of NS2 now, which I really like.

The question is, do we really need Energy as well?
Wouldn't it be easier, to change costs like mist/umbra/beacon/etc. to a p/tRes cost?
Your thoughts on this?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I do agree, I think pres should be used more instead of energy abilities. However you can't have anything important costing pres since it would allow players to dual/tri command.

    In the earlier build you could have 2 commanders in the beginning to get cysts all across the map. Also in the current build you can switch marine commanders to drop more med/ammo packs (20 med packs > shotgun). <<I think med/ammo packs need to changed into tres, will write about it in details later>>

    I don't mind having 2-3 abilties costing energy but majority of things should cost tres/pres. This is more of a issue on the alien side.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    I've been begging for this for a long time, it really has potential to balance out alot of things.
    And create alot of trade-offs.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I would like to argue we don't need p.res, just going with t.res (and maybe keeping energy for some limited purpose) would help A LOT in making things easier, both for people coming into the game as well as for balance purposes. I remember playing NS 2 for the first time, coming from NS 1 even and I really had no clue what the hell was going on with all the resources. (It doesn't help that energy isn't even displayed on the commander hud)

    An important rule in design is, never make something more complex than it has to be. There is really LITTLE reason why we need such a complex resource model. YES the NS 1 resource model was flawed, however the one they opted for instead is IMO even more flawed. They should have gone for a symmetric system with just 1 resource (applying the ns1 marine resource model to aliens) instead of a symmetric system with 2 (mixing the ns1 marine resource model with the alien one).
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • SolitarioSolitario Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Posts: 245Members
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 23 2012, 06:01 PM) »
    I would like to argue we don't need p.res, just going with t.res (and maybe keeping energy for some limited purpose) would help A LOT in making things easier, both for people coming into the game as well as for balance purposes. I remember playing NS 2 for the first time, coming from NS 1 even and I really had no clue what the hell was going on with all the resources. (It doesn't help that energy isn't even displayed on the commander hud)

    An important rule in design is, never make something more complex than it has to be. There is really LITTLE reason why we need such a complex resource model. YES the NS 1 resource model was flawed, however the one they opted for instead is IMO even more flawed. They should have gone for a symmetric system with just 1 resource (applying the ns1 marine resource model to aliens) instead of a symmetric system with 2 (mixing the ns1 marine resource model with the alien one).

    I must admit, it really bothered me in NS1, that the Comm gives out the weapons. Especially in puplic play, you often play whole games with a LMG only which can be really boring.
    I appreciate the pRes for Marines and I think it's one mechanic, which the developer won't change anymore
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited April 2012
    *chuckle* at all these threads.

    Scaling for player-numbers and giving players autonomy is important so I can see why they added it. Unfortunately, it has totally bonked the alien side of things and the commander has its fair share of problems too. I can only see it working for field-marines.

    As for energy; if energy is only used for abilities that are spammed as soon as you have enough, it basically ends up as a glorified cool-down. It doesn't really make sense for anything to cost energy when there is p.res anyway. And even then, you move it over to t.res! :P
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,131Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Energy seems pretty unnecessary and could easily be replaced with p.res or t.res depending on the structure ability.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Posts: 585Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    +1 For removing all energy abilities and comparing energy costs with tres and pres cost. I was thinking of creating a tech tree mockup with all the abilities and their costs in it. Not sure if i can find the time for that but i'll try.

    Combat oriented abilities like scan, distress, medpack, umbra, cloak etc. should cost pres while economy oriented abilities such as nutrient mist, nano-construct and cysts should cost tres.

    It's simple and should fix the player scaling issues as well as building spamming. It also gives more emphasis on rts and economy and forces the commanders to do decisions instead of spamming every single ability on their disposal.
  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Posts: 268Members
    I have argued for this aswell, +1 to the thread. Makes a lot of sense and would make balancing much easier, as well as create some interesting strategy (opposed to the "spam all the things!" we see with energy..)
    TheMarker
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    My only worry is that the lack of commander sinks for t.res means that late-game sees a billion arcs and a billion turrets.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE
    Combat oriented abilities like scan, distress, medpack, umbra, cloak etc. should cost pres while economy oriented abilities such as nutrient mist, nano-construct and cysts should cost tres.
    Do like.

    Spreading all these current abilities over 3 resources results in all 3 resources just being undeveloped and the commander having nothing to do with them lategame. 2 Resources would be more than enough, and makes for more trade-offs.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Apr 23 2012, 06:31 PM) »
    Energy seems pretty unnecessary and could easily be replaced with p.res or t.res depending on the structure ability.


    Energy is needed IMO. There are alot of exampels that energy balances the game better than doing it with res.
    1. Infinite Nanoshield
    2. Infinite Beacons
    3. Infinite Umbra
    4. Infinite Scans
    5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)

    By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.

    Also, atleast for the Obs, it forces you to make a important desicion scanning? Saving for Beacon? Or build a 2. Obs to have both?
    Same will go as soon as the Shade and Shift are full in the game. You have then to decide if you cloak your team or if you save for a inkcloud?
    Shall I use energise or save for echo, or build a 2 structure.

    Would it cost res you don't really have a great desicion because you could spam them and you don't really have to choise to trigger Nr. 1 or Nr. 2 because you have res for both of them.

    Energy is the only constant in the while ressystem that provides, IMO, a deeper and more controlable balance mechanism in the "metagamelevel".
    image
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,131Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 23 2012, 01:50 PM) »
    Energy is needed IMO. There are alot of exampels that energy balances the game better than doing it with res.
    1. Infinite Nanoshield
    2. Infinite Beacons
    3. Infinite Umbra
    4. Infinite Scans
    5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)

    By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.

    Also, atleast for the Obs, it forces you to make a important desicion scanning? Saving for Beacon? Or build a 2. Obs to have both?
    Same will go as soon as the Shade and Shift are full in the game. You have then to decide if you cloak your team or if you save for a inkcloud?
    Shall I use energise or save for echo, or build a 2 structure.

    Would it cost res you don't really have a great desicion because you could spam them and you don't really have to choise to trigger Nr. 1 or Nr. 2 because you have res for both of them.

    Energy is the only constant in the while ressystem that provides, IMO, a deeper and more controlable balance mechanism in the "metagamelevel".


    It doesn't really matter as it really relies on your t.res more than anything. Need more energy? Secure another tech point. Need more umbra? Drop down more crags. You're spending t.res to get the infinite effect anyways.
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 23 2012, 01:50 PM) »
    Energy is needed IMO. There are alot of exampels that energy balances the game better than doing it with res.
    1. Infinite Nanoshield
    2. Infinite Beacons
    3. Infinite Umbra
    4. Infinite Scans
    5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)

    By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.

    Also, atleast for the Obs, it forces you to make a important desicion scanning? Saving for Beacon? Or build a 2. Obs to have both?
    Same will go as soon as the Shade and Shift are full in the game. You have then to decide if you cloak your team or if you save for a inkcloud?
    Shall I use energise or save for echo, or build a 2 structure.

    Would it cost res you don't really have a great desicion because you could spam them and you don't really have to choise to trigger Nr. 1 or Nr. 2 because you have res for both of them.

    Energy is the only constant in the while ressystem that provides, IMO, a deeper and more controlable balance mechanism in the "metagamelevel".

    I do agree however if we are going to keep the dual res system we need to have commanders spending them both. We will probably never be able to completly prevent dual commanding but we could make it much less viable.
    You can already see the pres issue with the aliens, the commander can easily save up for onos. He does not have anything to spend his pres on thats why somethign must cost pres.
    If the commander had high pres cost abilities the aliens would at least suffer if they were forced to use another commander. The spam issue would not exist if the commander was the only one who could use his pres for these abilities. I would also not mind spam if the team has the economy to support it, then the other team is at fault for not keeping the rts down. They would be forced to choose if the numbers are done correctly.
    This is even harder to fix for marines since you can keep switching commanders for near unlimited medpacks.



    Imo the best solution would be to have commander to just use tres but then we need to figure out a way to get rid of pres without preventing players to buy their own weapons/lifeforms. Othervice it will never happen.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE
    Imo the best solution would be to have commander to just use tres but then we need to figure out a way to get rid of pres without preventing players to buy their own weapons/lifeforms. Othervice it will never happen.
    What if every player is given a percentage of the available weapon unlocks/lifeforms that the comm drops (read makes available) with t.res? I.e A player would not be able to die 4 times in a row as fade and waste all the team's fades, he could receive a cooldown period before being allowed to evolve/buy again, based on the amount of available players/resources/etc.

    If we can somehow find a way to have just a T.res system without the downside of 'first come first serve equipment and lifeforms', that'd be amazing.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • FreemantleFreemantle Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Posts: 907Members
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 23 2012, 06:50 PM) »
    Energy is needed IMO. There are alot of exampels that energy balances the game better than doing it with res.
    1. Infinite Nanoshield
    2. Infinite Beacons
    3. Infinite Umbra
    4. Infinite Scans
    5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)

    By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.


    Cooldowns. Also nano-shield needs to be reworked when applied to marines, but that's something entirely different.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Yes. Cooldowns will solve this.

    My thoughts from another thread. I'm going a bit nuts with the solution ideas, but some of them are worth thinking about.:
    QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 23 2012, 11:47 AM) »
    There is near to no decision for the alien com right now.
    • You have to mist your hive regularly.
    • You have to build one upgrade as soon as possible.
    • You have to build the second hive as soon as possible and after that a second upgrade.
    • As soon as maturation is complete, get tier 2 weapons.
    • Try to get as many RTs as possible all the time.


    You only get to make decisions, when you have to decide where to spend ONE resource. If you have two or three resources (tres, pres, energy) you don't need to make decisions between these.

    Solutions:
    • make every single tier 2 weapon researchable and costly after maturation of the hive (deciding which weapon you upgrade adds more decisions for the com, where to spend the Tres and what species to evolve and push.)
    • increase the time and cost for researchable upgrades drastically. (for example the shield could need to mature before you can research carapace or regen)
    • make mist cost tres. (It should not be mandatory to mist the main hive as most as possible. It should be a decision, if you mist or not. Another way to achieve this, is to add more than 2 energy dependent abilities for the hive. Again we need to create possibilities for decisions.)
    • make mist only work on one building / egg not in a range, adding again more decisions for the kham. (if ranged it only leads to building many upgrade buildings soon and around the hive.)
    • make 2 new upgrades which unlock fade or onos, one per hive. (only available after maturation of the hive)
    • or add 4 new upgrades for every life form besides skulk. The alien com can "build" these races and as much as he want. (like building tanks in C&C) The aliens only can gestate into another live form, if the pool of available (for example:) fades is not empty AND they have enough pres.

    The last point takes freedom from the players but give the com more options to decide which life forms are available and in which numbers. He produces the life forms as eggs and the normal player can decide to gestate into the available life forms. (At start, there should be 2 or 3 gorges pre build.)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    A quick fix to make this work would be stop pres flow for commander and have everything be tres based with few energy based abilities(similar to ns1). If we want to remove the initial 25 pres (so the comm cant buy 1 weapon/go gorge) you could have 25pres cost for entering the chair for the first time, but this might confuse new players who might enter the chair by accident.

    Afterwards the tres system would need to be adjusted (increased res gain) so everything would work with the tres. This would also allow aliens to dirrectly attack marine tres since med/ammo would cost tres.

    With this there won't be any pres buildup for the commanders and there won't be any issue with dual commanding since pres is useless for a commander. If the alien commander is fixed so he stays in the hive all game then I think this could work very well.

    Edit:
    Some quick tres calculations I did few weeks back, might be useful to get a feel for the system:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n8LXpyt...3Tl7SQfL_g/edit
    We must also consider that the resflow needs to be slower than ns1 since the commanders don't need to spend res to drop weapons/equipment.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2012
    Good ideas Grissi.

    I also agree cooldowns are a much better way to go about limiting some abilities over an 'energy' resource to be honest.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Energyregen is already a soft cooldown, you can sum up time but in the end it is a cooldown.
    And the shade f.e. already has a cooldown and its cooldown is identicas to the energy regenerated till you get again enought to reuse it.

    And having cooldown on Nanoshield or mist would be counterproductive. I shield a Marine, at the front, omg skulk rush CC, can't shield for 10s, sheeeeeeet.

    As alien, you are onosing and suddenly you hear a marine near the hive and the mates are on the other side of the map and can't help the next 10s.
    Your com just misted an RT, you call for a mist, but computers says no, marine kills you at 99%.

    Having cooldown would mean 1 person can get support the others not.
    With energy you can save up to f.e. 4 nanoshields, so you can shield 4 marines at the same time but the tradeoff is you can't shield the CC when the counter skulk rush comes. Same result but much more acceptable, because it was your desicion to do 4 nanos and not 3.
    image
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,204Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    Should med/ammo-packs get the same treatment, since we already have medspam?
  • SolitarioSolitario Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Posts: 245Members
    QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 23 2012, 08:48 PM) »
    A quick fix to make this work would be stop pres flow for commander and have everything be tres based with few energy based abilities(similar to ns1). If we want to remove the initial 25 pres (so the comm cant buy 1 weapon/go gorge) you could have 25pres cost for entering the chair for the first time, but this might confuse new players who might enter the chair by accident.

    Afterwards the tres system would need to be adjusted (increased res gain) so everything would work with the tres. This would also allow aliens to dirrectly attack marine tres since med/ammo would cost tres.

    With this there won't be any pres buildup for the commanders and there won't be any issue with dual commanding since pres is useless for a commander. If the alien commander is fixed so he stays in the hive all game then I think this could work very well.

    Edit:
    Some quick tres calculations I did few weeks back, might be useful to get a feel for the system:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n8LXpyt...3Tl7SQfL_g/edit
    We must also consider that the resflow needs to be slower than ns1 since the commanders don't need to spend res to drop weapons/equipment.

    +1, a really simple but elegant solution!!!
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    About cd's it depends on what you want to do. If you want to force the commander to choose between abilities (think scan/mule in sc2) or if you have just a single ability(similar to stalker blink again in sc2).

    If you want to limit the use of abilities such as nano shield its a very good idea to have cooldowns. But if the commander should be able to save up 2-3 nano shields or has another energy based ability that he can choose from it might be better to have energy.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • FreemantleFreemantle Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Posts: 907Members
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 23 2012, 08:39 PM) »
    Energyregen is already a soft cooldown, you can sum up time but in the end it is a cooldown.
    And the shade f.e. already has a cooldown and its cooldown is identicas to the energy regenerated till you get again enought to reuse it.

    And having cooldown on Nanoshield or mist would be counterproductive. I shield a Marine, at the front, omg skulk rush CC, can't shield for 10s, sheeeeeeet.

    As alien, you are onosing and suddenly you hear a marine near the hive and the mates are on the other side of the map and can't help the next 10s.
    Your com just misted an RT, you call for a mist, but computers says no, marine kills you at 99%.

    Having cooldown would mean 1 person can get support the others not.
    With energy you can save up to f.e. 4 nanoshields, so you can shield 4 marines at the same time but the tradeoff is you can't shield the CC when the counter skulk rush comes. Same result but much more acceptable, because it was your desicion to do 4 nanos and not 3.


    This is not on topic... but having to use nano-shield to prevent an anti-climactic game over tells you that something else is broken. In this instance, nano-shield is a band-aid, not a strategic tool.
  • NammNamm Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Posts: 406Members
    edited April 2012
    It's all very confusing. The simplest thing would be to prevent any pRes income for the Comm/Khamm and use only tRes, and about this energy stuff ... I don't even know how it's accumulated, and I've commed more than a few times...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2012
    Energy could easily be abolished:

    Marines
    Nano-shield: p.res
    Nano-construct: p.res
    Scan: p.res
    Distress Beacon: Cooldown/obs (+ maybe 'advanced obs' upgrade that cuts cooldown and incrased detection range or something like that)

    Aliens
    Shade: passive
    Umbra: p.res
    Nutrient Mist: p.res


    Why do we need energy anyway? Pretty much all the abilities can be considered 'support', so they can easily go to costing p.res. This would increase the amount of p.res sinks and force more choices/trade-offs on the commanders. (Do I support my aliens with p.res on the field or do I use it on our economy? etc) P.res is a pretty undeveloped resource for the alien comm, and energy is an undeveloped, confusing, redundant resource for both. Cutting it would make the game simpler and easier to balance, with more depth and choices.

    Either this or cut commander p.res and use only energy/t.res. I think everyone will agree using 3 resources is unnecessary and just makes this overly complex.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Yeah, keep the rules simple but add options to make it strategically complex.
    Scrap Energy completely and use pres for this. (sure, the costs of everything has to be decreased)

    Again: You only get to make decisions when you have to decide between two things that cost the same resource. If the two things cost a different resource each, I don't have to decide which I take. I can take both. This pretty much sums up, how the alien com works right now.

    Misting is the best use for hive energy, even umbra and stealth have their own energy pool. No need to make a decision, makes the alien com so boring.

    And to those that fear, these abilities will be spammed: If you spam one ability, you won't have enough pres to make this important beacon or you can't mist anymore because you spammed spikes.

    I would even go so far to split the alien upgrades more, to add more decision making to the com:
    • lerk, fade, onos has to be researched in the hive for tres
    • every single tier 2 and tier 3 weapon has to be researched for tres (You need tier 2 and a second hive to get tier 3. example: research leap for the skulk before you can research xenocide)
    • bring back 3 upgrade levels for the craig, shade, shift upgrades (Now you can balance carapace with the other upgrades. So it is not anymore the best choice. For example by making lvl1 and 2 weak, but giving a huge advantage to lvl1 silence. You have the tradeoff to get carapace later, because it gets really usefull when lvl3 or get silence, which is very useful at lvl1... and so on)
    • if you would to take this ideas even further, let the com "buy" lifeforms for his aliens from tres. He produces (for example) 2 fades. Now 2 player can evolve to fade, if they have enough pres.
    • same could go for marine weapons. The com builds them for tres and the players can only buy so much from their pres.

    This would allow pres4kills without the negative side effects. Because the com needs tres to get the weapons available in the necessary amounts.
    And it adds real decision-making like: Do I make a shotgun rush? Or should I research weapon upgrade 1 for the same amount of t-res?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE
    lerk, fade, onos has to be researched in the hive for tres

    They've stated they don't want to take away player control in what lifeform to play, so this is probably not going to happen. At the very least though they should consider requiring a 'upgrade' for the onos, so that an early game onos is weaker until he gets the tech investment (which would scale him to mid/late game) This can be made easily visible on the model (just make a non matured onos smaller/less armour plated to represent less hp/armour. This would only be necessary for the onos because quite frankly the onos is the only lifeform that is devastating even without its second tier ability (stomp), you can't balance the onos on just abilities like you can with the lerk and fade (Reworking gore won't fix the fact that the onos is impossible to take out early game)

    QUOTE
    every single tier 2 and tier 3 weapon has to be researched for tres (You need tier 2 and a second hive to get tier 3. example: research leap for the skulk before you can research xenocide)
    Definitely agree with this, the comm still has no choices currently, I actually thought augmentation was going to be a submenu, not a 'one button upgrades all' kind of deal. Not to mention it's FAR too cheap for what it does. (It really takes most lifeforms to the 'next level')

    QUOTE
    bring back 3 upgrade levels for the craig, shade, shift upgrades (Now you can balance carapace with the other upgrades. So it is not anymore the best choice. For example by making lvl1 and 2 weak, but giving a huge advantage to lvl1 silence. You have the tradeoff to get carapace later, because it gets really usefull when lvl3 or get silence, which is very useful at lvl1... and so on)
    More levels would make them scale better towards late game, increase the tech sink/choices and add more depth to alien gameplay in general, so I would agree with that as well. Failing that, they should consider having 'mature' shells give more armour (so that they scale automatically over time, which still gives the khamm an option to invest p.res on misting a shell over something else)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Evo303Evo303 Join Date: 2012-03-22 Member: 149199Posts: 24Members
    Some good ideas floating around in here... I agree something has to change re: energy/pres/tres... It's just confusing and needlessly complicating things
  • Raven_XIRaven_XI Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12032Posts: 159Members, Constellation
    Am I the only person who likes the game having all 3?
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