<!--quoteo(post=1926350:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 17 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it was convincingly argued here ( <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117596" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117596</a> ) that ns2 has already too many of these kind of annoying mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. I'm quite surprised because I thought it was fairly obvious how annoying these are, but now there's even more, and with that twitter message the other day asking for marine impairment abilities for the onos... I don't know what to think, tbh.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
I like that you're fleshing out a concept for the alien commander that gives it a reason for being, as opposed to just the the "but scaling!" argument. I also approve of many of the proposed changes, such as removing drifter flare and making upgrades free. However, there are also a lot of potential problems:
<!--quoteo(post=1926126:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:18 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 17 2012, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I understand it means that a second hive will only give you more eggs and energy. Unlocking the tier 2 abilities will be done at your first hive after it matures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is going to be very difficult to balance, unless there are significant changes to other parts of the game's design. Currently, and also previously in NS1, second tier abilites (currently hive2 abilities) are extremely powerful. So powerful, that the "best" way to play marine, is trying to deny the aliens their second hive, thereby avoiding the second tier abilities. The point is that the power of the second tier abilities is balanced by marines being able to deny aliens access to them. If the second tier abilities are simply "evolved" on their starting hive, marines lose that option; which means you're forced to, at the very least, go over all the second-tier abilities and rebalance them.
Furthermore, while it does add some new strategic options for the aliens, it limits the viable marine strategies. In that regard the proposed change is a zero-sum game. Typically marines in NS1 and the NS2 beta have been faced with one binary choice for maximizing your chances of winning the game (with many other choices that follow whichever path you choose of course): Either your strategy should be to focus your efforts/resources on denying the aliens their second hive (best probability of winning), or you should just ignore the alien hives and instead focus on winning the resource war and obtaining a late-game tech advantage (less chance of winning because alien second tier abilities are significantly stronger than the marine mid-game tech).
It obviously isn't impossible to balance this, but it would require significant changes to the tier 2 abilites, which would then require further changes to other parts of the game and so on...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander can spend player res on pre-evolving eggs into lifeforms (full cost due to ability to trade commander positions). He can also choose to assist players by triggering abilities on cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a good idea. The problem is that you will be faced with a situation where the team can basically "feed" res to their best players. Oh, the marines finally managed to kill that monster-skill fade? No matter, just get somebody else to spend their res on evolving him into fade again. Sucks to be you, marines.
This might not be an enormous problem on publics, as people will generally want to spend the res on themselves rather than on their teammates, but in competitive play it will basically turn into a hierarchy where some players are on the team to get the frags as advanced lifeforms and the other players are on the team just to feed the good advanced lifeform players with new lifeforms whenever they die. This was already a problem in NS1 (without the res feeding) but will become even more obnoxious in NS2 if this is implemented.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no downside to alien aggression (especially in early game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The proposed changes don't actually address this problem. The penalties for dying as a skulk during the early game are practically non-existant (near-instant spawn, very rarely run out of eggs, and even if you do run out of eggs you get emergency egg spawn, no rfk for marines, harvesters are very hard to kill because of infestation "scouting" and marine debuffs on infestation). That's what's giving aliens incentives to play aggressive all the time, not the way structures are dropped or the tech tree advances.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a new Cyst ability called Rupture, which is triggered by the Alien commander for pres. It destroys the Cyst and splashes infestation on nearby enemy targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really hope this isn't another debuff/stun/vision impairment type ability, because that is just about the last thing this game needs more of.
What about the commander can place whatever buiding directly at the infestation then the nearest hive pumps out an drifter, moves it to the build location and starts building.
Example:
"human" Commander selects an harvester and place it at a resnode> "AI" pumps out an drifter automatic and moves it to the resnode and build it.
This way less micromangement and still time consuming/not instant since the drifter still have to go all the way from the hive to the selected "buiding spot" ?
Also,
i really hate the name "mini-cyst" whats wrong with "lesser-cyst" "minor-cyst" heck even "gorge-cyst" is better ?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1926365:date=Apr 17 2012, 09:59 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 17 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not a good idea. The problem is that you will be face with a situation where the team can basically "feed" res to their best players. Oh, the marines finally managed to kill that monster-skill fade? No matter, just get somebody else to spend their res on evolving him into fade again. Sucks to be you, marines.
This might not be an enormous problem on publics, as people will generally want to spend the res on themselves rather than on their teammates, but in competitive play it will basically turn into a hierarchy where some players are on the team to get the frags as advanced lifeforms and the other players are on the team just to feed the good advanced lifeform players with new lifeforms whenever they die. This was already a problem in NS1 (without the res feeding) but will become even more obnoxious in NS2 if this is implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i see what you mean, but wouldn't it be simply better to have 3 fades at the same time and 3 skilled players in your team, rather than 1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding him? i don't see this as a winning strategy and not as a huge problem
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
I'm also happy to see that changes are being done for the alien commander. By far it has been the most boring role in NS2.
Fana raised exactly the same four points that i was thinking about too. <ul><li>Second hive has almost no importance in the game anymore. This limits marine strategies and causes aliens to turtle.</li><li>What positive does the egg pre-evolving add to the game? Pres will be pretty much like tres now if you can buy stuff to other players by changing commander.</li><li>This probably won't solve the problem that there is no downside for alien aggression. Other than the fact that now there will no downside in turtling either.</li><li>I really hope that the rupture does not screw your vision, hearing, slow your movement, change the bindings of your A and D keys or other similar "disruptive" effects.</li></ul>
I was a little worried about aliens holding the line when its down 1 or 2 more players, but I was helping test two dedicated gorges on alien team yesterday and I think it can work fine
The obvious benefit is that area denial is greatly increased with hydras going down
<!--quoteo(post=1926362:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:57 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Apr 17 2012, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. I'm quite surprised because I thought it was fairly obvious how annoying these are, but now there's even more, and with that twitter message the other day asking for marine impairment abilities for the onos... I don't know what to think, tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a little worried about this as well, they take out fun mechanics like devour that were supposedly annoying for marines but add 55641 new ones that are a lot more frustrating (gore, stomp, these new cyst abilities, etc)
IMO rupture should just be a spore effect, i.e obscuring vision and DOT in an area around the ruptured cyst. There's little point in splashing infestation on marines when they'll already be on infestation and thus visible on hivesight anyway (you can't get close to a cyst without being shown on hivesight already) It would be a better idea if rupture was needed to 'show' marines on infestation for all aliens rather than having it as a free maphack.
I think the pre-evolving eggs may be problematic, but only lategame, at which point the alien comm rarely has anything to spend p.res on anyway. Giving his players another free evolution to an extra onos could be HUGE. (i.e marines face, 3 onos, manage to kill one, alien khamm can immediately replace one) This might become even worse with free structures on gorges, which means mid-lategame ALL field players will be either fade/onos/lerk, which when timed properly is something marines simply can't deal with. (3 - 4 good fades is usually already GG midgame)
But yea, let's not run ahead of ourselves and keep in mind that it's one small step out of many that will no doubt be taken in the next few months. There's many more balance changes coming and I have absolute confidence in UWE's ability to get balance right. The fact that they listen to the community like this is absolutely appreciated, keep up the great work.
<!--quoteo(post=1926372:date=Apr 17 2012, 02:10 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Apr 17 2012, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]I really hope that the rupture does not screw your vision, hearing, slow your movement, change the bindings of your A and D keys or other similar "disruptive" effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commander can destroy a cyst completely, splashing infestation on nearby enemy units. This infestation splashes onto the marine view, partially obscuring their sight (use a heavier version of the Gorge spit effect).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was convincingly argued here ( <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117596" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117596</a> ) that ns2 has already too many of these kind of annoying mechanics.
This is why I love the Beta, the game is constantly changing. I am still worried about the Lerk as in its current state it is IMHO OP. I'm sure like with everything else, time will alleviate this issue. Thank you once again for listening to the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1926370:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:07 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 17 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i see what you mean, but wouldn't it be simply better to have 3 fades at the same time and 3 skilled players in your team, rather than 1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding him? i don't see this as a winning strategy and not as a huge problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let them cry, the build is not out yet but the crying already has started. Finaly a good reason to play on the marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=1926365:date=Apr 17 2012, 02:59 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 17 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is going to be very difficult to balance, unless there are significant changes to other parts of the game's design. Currently, and also previously in NS1, second tier abilites (currently hive2 abilities) are extremely powerful. So powerful, that the "best" way to play marine, is trying to deny the aliens their second hive, thereby avoiding the second tier abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO this leads to boring gameplay. While it may be balanced it's not as fun if the game all evolves around whether or not the aliens unlock the "super abilities". It makes the whole game be decided on whether or not the second hive gets dropped. I think it would be much better if the tier 2 and 3 abilities of aliens were toned back and while more powerful, weren't game deciders. This allows the aliens to tech up in a similar fashion to the marines, without it being overpowered. It probably won't be balanced at first, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The proposed changes don't actually address this problem. The penalties for dying as a skulk during the early game are practically non-existant (near-instant spawn, very rarely run out of eggs, and even if you do run out of egges you get emergency egg spawn, no rfk for marines, harvesters are very hard to kill because of infestion "scouting" and marine debuffs on infestation). That's what's giving aliens incentives to play aggressive all the time, not the way structures are dropped or the tech tree advances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree. I believe this is also the reason why you don't see aliens sticking together very much in public games. They can just die over and over without any downtime. I said this for a long time as the spawn times are very key to balancing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1926370:date=Apr 17 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 17 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i see what you mean, but wouldn't it be simply better to have 3 fades at the same time and 3 skilled players in your team, rather than 1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding him? i don't see this as a winning strategy and not as a huge problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess iif your fades stay alive you're going to add up more, but any dead fade is going to be replaced by designated fade player while it's still paid by the first guy to hit fade res. It's in no way a very desirable situation for the guys at the bottom of your feeding chain. It's much more interesting and fair if the lifeforms go to the player able to afford them, not to the guy who plays them the best.
I can't say that I really agree with the supposedly convincing arguments against disruptive effects. Probably because I've spent much time in games where this is more heavily used then here. Some could be toned down though, mainly the Onos gore effect, as it completely takes control away from your character for a few seconds.
<b>Save the Gorge!</b>
What largely made the gorge fun to play in NS1 for me was supporting and denying through structure placements. You could close of chokes and build forward bases at clever positions to assist your team. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good development for the gorge to assist in building structures, but it needs something fun to do, such as placing structures. I'm also against a hardcap on anything, such as numbers of structures.
<b>Hydras</b>: Make them have an initial cost, but can be picked up and moved around freely. This way it will still be a resource sink, but you can relocate them as you travel to assist in building in a new location. Make you able to carry 3 hydras at a time on your back. They would function, but if you die with them on your back, they would die. This would make you stronger while moving but a valuable target. Hydra damage is fine, but please increase projectile speed so you can't avoid mid-range hydras unless you have a jetpack. Close range Hydra damage should never be avoidable.
<b>Whips</b>: Make the gorge able to build whips. In NS1 the gorge could hide behind his chambers while they killed the marines. The hydras doesn't allow this, so the gorge's personal defense is lacking. By allowing the gorge to build whips (15-20 res?) he would regain the ability to defend himself or retreat against small numbers of marines. Those shouldn't be movable by the gorge.
<b>Movement</b>: Belly sliding is fun, but it lacks any real depth. It's also just a brief speedburst, making traversing bigger rooms annoying. I think it would greatly increase the depth and skill of using belly slide if you could bounce against obstacles and reset your speed. Logic? The gorge pushes against the surface with feet/head :D
If those changes would be made, I would be a very happy gorge!
Just what aliens needed- less consequences for not expanding, more focus on turtling and removal of any way for the poor rines to have any chances of stopping them from advancing the tech tree.
Just thought about this, but does this change mean that Alien Commanders instantly replacing cysts you kill, is gone?
Always hated how later in the game, especially once JP's were out, I could try to disrupt the cyst chain but the Alien Commander would just drop one or two and instantly make my work pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1926405:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:34 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 17 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Always hated how later in the game, especially once JP's were out, I could try to disrupt the cyst chain but the Alien Commander would just drop one or two and instantly make my work pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is basic chain disruption (opposed to obliterating a huge chunk of it) supposed to be effective later game though? I always saw it as more of an early game strategy (or something to do to annoy the alien khamm), but I'm by no means a competitive player. I just know I always see a LOT more cyst spam later on and see aliens as way more protective of them in the early game. No clue if that is intentional though...
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1926370:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:07 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 17 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i see what you mean, but wouldn't it be simply better to have 3 fades at the same time and 3 skilled players in your team, rather than 1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding him? i don't see this as a winning strategy and not as a huge problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't really a case of having "3 skilled players in your team" vs. "1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding", but more a case of certain players being better than others. No team will ever have a full team of equally skilled fades; most teams, even top teams, will have one or two players who are significantly better than the rest at playing fade. When you have a limited economy (a necessity for meaningful strategic play, will have to be addressed at some point as the current res system is completely haywire) where you have a choice of getting advantage a), b) or c), spending the res only on the best players (even if that means a smaller total amount of fades in the field) becomes the best way to maximize your "advantage per res unit".
What I'm trying to say is this: Channeling your res towards the few best fades (actually applies equally to lerks), who will get a lot of frags for every death is almost always preferable to distributing it evenly amongst the best fade players and the other players (who will not get a lot of frags for every death).
An attempt at further clarification: A large part of NS2 (like NS1) is the resource war. The resource war can be split into two parts: One is the gathering of resources and the other is the spending of resources. Obviously, the team that is able to get the biggest return on each resource gathered will get a significant advantage. One way to do that, is to make sure every resource you spend is converted into as many frags as possible, no matter which player happens to "own" the resources.
(and that's just a small part of it, for example I haven't even mentioned the frustration of seeing that fade/lerk that keeps killing you get reevolved to fade every time you manage to kill him).
I'm glad you're trying new things to improve the gaming experience!
Still feeling a bit worried, that as alien you dont have to accomplish much to get tier2 abilitys. It looks like you just have to wait a fixed amount of time to get them. But overall I'm really positive about the changes!
<!--quoteo(post=1926362:date=Apr 17 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Apr 17 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. I'm quite surprised because I thought it was fairly obvious how annoying these are, but now there's even more, and with that twitter message the other day asking for marine impairment abilities for the onos... I don't know what to think, tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't get too worked up about marine impairments. We are constantly changing and revising this stuff, and exploring other options. For example, the slowdown on Gorge spit is getting removed, Lerk spores are going to be made slightly more transparent, we are looking into removing stun from Onos gore, etc.
But, yes, there are still going to be some abilities that impair marines sight and/ or movement or something else. It makes for a pretty boring game if every single one of the alien abilities and alien commander abilites and alien structure abilities, of which there are quite a few different ones in the game, only do damage/armor reduction. We've been pretty conscious of the negative consequences of adding these, and we've been listening to the community as well, to try to minimize the frustration impairment abilities can cause. But we feel the variety in gameplay, and immersive feedback these can provide is worth the tradeoff.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
From the Alien Commander 2.0 design log
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Telling players where incoming enemies are (being the eyes and ears for aliens?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make the commander the "HiveMind" of the aliens. Make the alien comm the source of the updates and information to his players. Rather than players being bombarded with information messages that aren't relelvant to the Alien Commanders strategy, use the commanders pheromones ideas to be the source of the building/area under attack messages that pop up on the players HUD. This allows the khamm to make choices as necessary, and meaning the players should always respond to the messages as they are messages from the khamm.
Khamm can choose to not announce attack messages on areas they have given up/are not concerned about etc.
Ok this will balance the development speed problem of the game, but still there are some problems with OP aliens that need to be Addresed...
Skulks, IMO they are too tough to kill, maybe is because my bad aiming/ bad connection, but its really hard to kill a jumping skulk running toward you, sometimes I have to spend a full clip then hit it with the weapon and the skulks still kills me... Skulks are not really afraid to confront a marine with a gun face to face, and they should, guns should be a real menace to skulls. Skulks should take advantage of their size and movement to sneakily kill a marine, Skulks shouldn't be just Kamikaze warriors, they should be sneaky, hiding around the corner, vents, etc. I also I belive that direct shooting should slow down/push back the attacking alien a little bit.
Marine Mines, This is kind of the only defense against rushing aliens, but they become worthless quickly into the game, Lerks can easily remove them, and with bile bomb they can remove a bunch with one shot, this is going to happen earlier in the game with the hive maturing thing. Fades can blink around and remove them without getting damage and Infestation easily destroys all the mines without affecting the cysts.
Lerks are just insane, almost impossible to hit and kill, and 2 lerks bilebombing can quickly destroy any marine base.. not to mention de visibility problems they produce to humans...
the balance problem with aliens have to do more with these individual skills than with the comming
<!--quoteo(post=1926076:date=Apr 17 2012, 01:33 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 17 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh boy, I can see myself loggin alot of hours as Alien comm - I spend half my day watering plants around the office anyway!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You water plants on the street in your free time? You will be a strange granpa when you are old.
OnTopic:
Sounds cool. May that be the even newer concept inside the already revolutionary NS concept? When you guys make this working and fun to play it will be ground-breaking. Just like the art and atmosphere is already and the Engine will be (for modders) when optimized.
You have my permission to continue developing this game. Now get to work, I wanna play!
Where the scale tips to the left the marine usually wins the 1v1, and where it tips to the right the alien usually win. Really makes for some interesting encounters!
Comments
I agree. I'm quite surprised because I thought it was fairly obvious how annoying these are, but now there's even more, and with that twitter message the other day asking for marine impairment abilities for the onos... I don't know what to think, tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=1926126:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:18 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 17 2012, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I understand it means that a second hive will only give you more eggs and energy. Unlocking the tier 2 abilities will be done at your first hive after it matures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is going to be very difficult to balance, unless there are significant changes to other parts of the game's design. Currently, and also previously in NS1, second tier abilites (currently hive2 abilities) are extremely powerful. So powerful, that the "best" way to play marine, is trying to deny the aliens their second hive, thereby avoiding the second tier abilities. The point is that the power of the second tier abilities is balanced by marines being able to deny aliens access to them. If the second tier abilities are simply "evolved" on their starting hive, marines lose that option; which means you're forced to, at the very least, go over all the second-tier abilities and rebalance them.
Furthermore, while it does add some new strategic options for the aliens, it limits the viable marine strategies. In that regard the proposed change is a zero-sum game. Typically marines in NS1 and the NS2 beta have been faced with one binary choice for maximizing your chances of winning the game (with many other choices that follow whichever path you choose of course): Either your strategy should be to focus your efforts/resources on denying the aliens their second hive (best probability of winning), or you should just ignore the alien hives and instead focus on winning the resource war and obtaining a late-game tech advantage (less chance of winning because alien second tier abilities are significantly stronger than the marine mid-game tech).
It obviously isn't impossible to balance this, but it would require significant changes to the tier 2 abilites, which would then require further changes to other parts of the game and so on...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander can spend player res on pre-evolving eggs into lifeforms (full cost due to ability to trade commander positions). He can also choose to assist players by triggering abilities on cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not a good idea. The problem is that you will be faced with a situation where the team can basically "feed" res to their best players. Oh, the marines finally managed to kill that monster-skill fade? No matter, just get somebody else to spend their res on evolving him into fade again. Sucks to be you, marines.
This might not be an enormous problem on publics, as people will generally want to spend the res on themselves rather than on their teammates, but in competitive play it will basically turn into a hierarchy where some players are on the team to get the frags as advanced lifeforms and the other players are on the team just to feed the good advanced lifeform players with new lifeforms whenever they die. This was already a problem in NS1 (without the res feeding) but will become even more obnoxious in NS2 if this is implemented.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no downside to alien aggression (especially in early game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The proposed changes don't actually address this problem. The penalties for dying as a skulk during the early game are practically non-existant (near-instant spawn, very rarely run out of eggs, and even if you do run out of eggs you get emergency egg spawn, no rfk for marines, harvesters are very hard to kill because of infestation "scouting" and marine debuffs on infestation). That's what's giving aliens incentives to play aggressive all the time, not the way structures are dropped or the tech tree advances.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a new Cyst ability called Rupture, which is triggered by the Alien commander for pres. It destroys the Cyst and splashes infestation on nearby enemy targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope this isn't another debuff/stun/vision impairment type ability, because that is just about the last thing this game needs more of.
Example:
"human" Commander selects an harvester and place it at a resnode> "AI" pumps out an drifter automatic and moves it to the resnode and build it.
This way less micromangement and still time consuming/not instant since the drifter still have to go all the way from the hive to the selected "buiding spot" ?
Also,
i really hate the name "mini-cyst" whats wrong with "lesser-cyst" "minor-cyst" heck even "gorge-cyst" is better ?
This might not be an enormous problem on publics, as people will generally want to spend the res on themselves rather than on their teammates, but in competitive play it will basically turn into a hierarchy where some players are on the team to get the frags as advanced lifeforms and the other players are on the team just to feed the good advanced lifeform players with new lifeforms whenever they die. This was already a problem in NS1 (without the res feeding) but will become even more obnoxious in NS2 if this is implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i see what you mean, but wouldn't it be simply better to have 3 fades at the same time and 3 skilled players in your team, rather than 1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding him? i don't see this as a winning strategy and not as a huge problem
Fana raised exactly the same four points that i was thinking about too.
<ul><li>Second hive has almost no importance in the game anymore. This limits marine strategies and causes aliens to turtle.</li><li>What positive does the egg pre-evolving add to the game? Pres will be pretty much like tres now if you can buy stuff to other players by changing commander.</li><li>This probably won't solve the problem that there is no downside for alien aggression. Other than the fact that now there will no downside in turtling either.</li><li>I really hope that the rupture does not screw your vision, hearing, slow your movement, change the bindings of your A and D keys or other similar "disruptive" effects.</li></ul>
The obvious benefit is that area denial is greatly increased with hydras going down
I'm a little worried about this as well, they take out fun mechanics like devour that were supposedly annoying for marines but add 55641 new ones that are a lot more frustrating (gore, stomp, these new cyst abilities, etc)
IMO rupture should just be a spore effect, i.e obscuring vision and DOT in an area around the ruptured cyst. There's little point in splashing infestation on marines when they'll already be on infestation and thus visible on hivesight anyway (you can't get close to a cyst without being shown on hivesight already) It would be a better idea if rupture was needed to 'show' marines on infestation for all aliens rather than having it as a free maphack.
I think the pre-evolving eggs may be problematic, but only lategame, at which point the alien comm rarely has anything to spend p.res on anyway. Giving his players another free evolution to an extra onos could be HUGE. (i.e marines face, 3 onos, manage to kill one, alien khamm can immediately replace one) This might become even worse with free structures on gorges, which means mid-lategame ALL field players will be either fade/onos/lerk, which when timed properly is something marines simply can't deal with. (3 - 4 good fades is usually already GG midgame)
But yea, let's not run ahead of ourselves and keep in mind that it's one small step out of many that will no doubt be taken in the next few months. There's many more balance changes coming and I have absolute confidence in UWE's ability to get balance right. The fact that they listen to the community like this is absolutely appreciated, keep up the great work.
It does :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commander can destroy a cyst completely, splashing infestation on nearby enemy units. This infestation splashes onto the marine view, partially obscuring their sight (use a heavier version of the Gorge spit effect).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was convincingly argued here ( <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117596" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117596</a> ) that ns2 has already too many of these kind of annoying mechanics.
Let them cry, the build is not out yet but the crying already has started.
Finaly a good reason to play on the marine team.
IMO this leads to boring gameplay. While it may be balanced it's not as fun if the game all evolves around whether or not the aliens unlock the "super abilities". It makes the whole game be decided on whether or not the second hive gets dropped. I think it would be much better if the tier 2 and 3 abilities of aliens were toned back and while more powerful, weren't game deciders. This allows the aliens to tech up in a similar fashion to the marines, without it being overpowered. It probably won't be balanced at first, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The proposed changes don't actually address this problem. The penalties for dying as a skulk during the early game are practically non-existant (near-instant spawn, very rarely run out of eggs, and even if you do run out of egges you get emergency egg spawn, no rfk for marines, harvesters are very hard to kill because of infestion "scouting" and marine debuffs on infestation). That's what's giving aliens incentives to play aggressive all the time, not the way structures are dropped or the tech tree advances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree. I believe this is also the reason why you don't see aliens sticking together very much in public games. They can just die over and over without any downtime. I said this for a long time as the spawn times are very key to balancing the game.
I guess iif your fades stay alive you're going to add up more, but any dead fade is going to be replaced by designated fade player while it's still paid by the first guy to hit fade res. It's in no way a very desirable situation for the guys at the bottom of your feeding chain. It's much more interesting and fair if the lifeforms go to the player able to afford them, not to the guy who plays them the best.
<b>Save the Gorge!</b>
What largely made the gorge fun to play in NS1 for me was supporting and denying through structure placements. You could close of chokes and build forward bases at clever positions to assist your team. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good development for the gorge to assist in building structures, but it needs something fun to do, such as placing structures. I'm also against a hardcap on anything, such as numbers of structures.
<b>Hydras</b>: Make them have an initial cost, but can be picked up and moved around freely. This way it will still be a resource sink, but you can relocate them as you travel to assist in building in a new location. Make you able to carry 3 hydras at a time on your back. They would function, but if you die with them on your back, they would die. This would make you stronger while moving but a valuable target. Hydra damage is fine, but please increase projectile speed so you can't avoid mid-range hydras unless you have a jetpack. Close range Hydra damage should never be avoidable.
<b>Whips</b>: Make the gorge able to build whips. In NS1 the gorge could hide behind his chambers while they killed the marines. The hydras doesn't allow this, so the gorge's personal defense is lacking. By allowing the gorge to build whips (15-20 res?) he would regain the ability to defend himself or retreat against small numbers of marines. Those shouldn't be movable by the gorge.
<b>Movement</b>: Belly sliding is fun, but it lacks any real depth. It's also just a brief speedburst, making traversing bigger rooms annoying. I think it would greatly increase the depth and skill of using belly slide if you could bounce against obstacles and reset your speed. Logic? The gorge pushes against the surface with feet/head :D
If those changes would be made, I would be a very happy gorge!
Always hated how later in the game, especially once JP's were out, I could try to disrupt the cyst chain but the Alien Commander would just drop one or two and instantly make my work pointless.
Is basic chain disruption (opposed to obliterating a huge chunk of it) supposed to be effective later game though? I always saw it as more of an early game strategy (or something to do to annoy the alien khamm), but I'm by no means a competitive player. I just know I always see a LOT more cyst spam later on and see aliens as way more protective of them in the early game. No clue if that is intentional though...
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It isn't really a case of having "3 skilled players in your team" vs. "1 good and a bunch of "low skilled" for feeding", but more a case of certain players being better than others. No team will ever have a full team of equally skilled fades; most teams, even top teams, will have one or two players who are significantly better than the rest at playing fade. When you have a limited economy (a necessity for meaningful strategic play, will have to be addressed at some point as the current res system is completely haywire) where you have a choice of getting advantage a), b) or c), spending the res only on the best players (even if that means a smaller total amount of fades in the field) becomes the best way to maximize your "advantage per res unit".
What I'm trying to say is this: Channeling your res towards the few best fades (actually applies equally to lerks), who will get a lot of frags for every death is almost always preferable to distributing it evenly amongst the best fade players and the other players (who will not get a lot of frags for every death).
An attempt at further clarification: A large part of NS2 (like NS1) is the resource war. The resource war can be split into two parts: One is the gathering of resources and the other is the spending of resources. Obviously, the team that is able to get the biggest return on each resource gathered will get a significant advantage. One way to do that, is to make sure every resource you spend is converted into as many frags as possible, no matter which player happens to "own" the resources.
(and that's just a small part of it, for example I haven't even mentioned the frustration of seeing that fade/lerk that keeps killing you get reevolved to fade every time you manage to kill him).
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Correct. As of this post the public build is still b204.
Still feeling a bit worried, that as alien you dont have to accomplish much to get tier2 abilitys. It looks like you just have to wait a fixed amount of time to get them. But overall I'm really positive about the changes!
Don't get too worked up about marine impairments. We are constantly changing and revising this stuff, and exploring other options. For example, the slowdown on Gorge spit is getting removed, Lerk spores are going to be made slightly more transparent, we are looking into removing stun from Onos gore, etc.
But, yes, there are still going to be some abilities that impair marines sight and/ or movement or something else. It makes for a pretty boring game if every single one of the alien abilities and alien commander abilites and alien structure abilities, of which there are quite a few different ones in the game, only do damage/armor reduction. We've been pretty conscious of the negative consequences of adding these, and we've been listening to the community as well, to try to minimize the frustration impairment abilities can cause. But we feel the variety in gameplay, and immersive feedback these can provide is worth the tradeoff.
--Cory
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Telling players where incoming enemies are (being the eyes and ears for aliens?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make the commander the "HiveMind" of the aliens. Make the alien comm the source of the updates and information to his players. Rather than players being bombarded with information messages that aren't relelvant to the Alien Commanders strategy, use the commanders pheromones ideas to be the source of the building/area under attack messages that pop up on the players HUD. This allows the khamm to make choices as necessary, and meaning the players should always respond to the messages as they are messages from the khamm.
Khamm can choose to not announce attack messages on areas they have given up/are not concerned about etc.
Skulks, IMO they are too tough to kill, maybe is because my bad aiming/ bad connection, but its really hard to kill a jumping skulk running toward you, sometimes I have to spend a full clip then hit it with the weapon and the skulks still kills me...
Skulks are not really afraid to confront a marine with a gun face to face, and they should, guns should be a real menace to skulls. Skulks should take advantage of their size and movement to sneakily kill a marine, Skulks shouldn't be just Kamikaze warriors, they should be sneaky, hiding around the corner, vents, etc.
I also I belive that direct shooting should slow down/push back the attacking alien a little bit.
Marine Mines, This is kind of the only defense against rushing aliens, but they become worthless quickly into the game, Lerks can easily remove them, and with bile bomb they can remove a bunch with one shot, this is going to happen earlier in the game with the hive maturing thing. Fades can blink around and remove them without getting damage and Infestation easily destroys all the mines without affecting the cysts.
Lerks are just insane, almost impossible to hit and kill, and 2 lerks bilebombing can quickly destroy any marine base.. not to mention de visibility problems they produce to humans...
the balance problem with aliens have to do more with these individual skills than with the comming
You water plants on the street in your free time? You will be a strange granpa when you are old.
OnTopic:
Sounds cool. May that be the even newer concept inside the already revolutionary NS concept? When you guys make this working and fun to play it will be ground-breaking. Just like the art and atmosphere is already and the Engine will be (for modders) when optimized.
You have my permission to continue developing this game. Now get to work, I wanna play!
There's always that really clever balance of:
Marine aim -- Alien movement
Where the scale tips to the left the marine usually wins the 1v1, and where it tips to the right the alien usually win.
Really makes for some interesting encounters!
I have to say I am excited.
It sounds like the decisions are
a) Part of this gardener thing Charlie kept saying.
b) Our feedback.
You guys keep the show going ....I keep watching the show