<!--quoteo(post=1926200:date=Apr 17 2012, 12:08 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Apr 17 2012, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts already fill this role. Their cost and HP could probably be tweaked to make them even more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts can be dropped anywhere extremely quickly. Marines vs cysts as building denial is a lot different than marines vs drifters. (the former really doesn't work)
Rantology also just brought up a good point. They put in an entire patch to slow alien expansion.. Drifters do exactly that. You can't just instantly start building 10 whips out of the sky when you see a GL rush. You have to buy the drifters (which take time to build) and then buy the whips.
<!--quoteo(post=1926196:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:03 PM:name=jepo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jepo @ Apr 16 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additional idea: What if life forms matured in the same way as buildings? JNot as extreme an effect, but motivation for aliens to not just rush in waves but get away and regen. As they get older they move from -10% to +10% power.
If you've seen the episode 'scar' of BSG then you'll know what I mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean the practically universally recognized worst episode of the series that everyone hated, including the cast? Not the greatest comparison, FYI ;P And that wasn't really Scar's thing anyways... he/it just "learned" more than the others and then decided to use that against the humans by ambushing and whatnot, <a href="http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Scar" target="_blank">didn't he</a>? (been awhile since I watched it... usually skip that atrocity) Not really a "I gained more power because I didn't explode really quick" kinda thing. Scar would be more akin to simply an experienced player that doesn't suicide constantly, not a lifeform that gains power by not dying.
More to the point of your post, I don't really see a need for the lifeforms to have that kind of change. What would the purpose be? Is it intended to actually balance something, or just a change for the sake of it? (curious as to the motive, not being a jerk :D)
<!--QuoteBegin-GORGEous+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Killing the drifter is the easiest way to stop an alien building, otherwise it takes many factors more effort to kill a building once it goes up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Newborn buildings could be made weaker to compensate. <!--QuoteBegin-GORGEous+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't just instantly start building 10 whips out of the sky when you see a GL rush. You have to buy the drifters (which take time to build) and then buy the whips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A non-issue if only mature whips have the ability to throw grenades back and the time it takes for them to mature equals the time it takes to build and get drifters into place.
while on the topic of alien commander... can you please consider giving the shade's cloak an auto-cast feature? it's probably the most annoying thing as alien commander atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1926095:date=Apr 17 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Gravity Grave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gravity Grave @ Apr 17 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, this makes them more vulnerable to grenades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a completely different feeling about the alien com..
His role remains boring, no matter which (small) changes are made, just read this:
<i>He’s not telling his team what to do - he’s giving them information and providing the best conditions he can and letting them choose their location, lifeform and tactics.</i>
It's basically playing Starcraft, chosing upgrades, spreading creep but without having any units. Sounds neat? Well yeah.
You have so little impact on the processing game that I don't really want to do that job at all, especially not the whole game.
Everytime you will have that feeling of joining the teamfights on the ground in your head. This gets worse when playing 'competititve' - I'm pretty sure that sitting in your hive the whole clanmatch is very inefficient since you have to sacrifice 1 player for decorating the map. I think it will rather tend to a jump in and do this and that quickly and then jump out style especially since you have a good overview via zoomed minimap. That even worked in NS1.
Sidenote: Yes i have the NS2 Beta and tried the alien com many times.
I realy like you think more about make aliens diffrent. And i guess changes are good, i played a lot old games now and some need a change. I like the lerk has bilebomb now, so i guess we all can trust you guys. it sounds like it has so much changes, anyway can't wait to test it out (if your playtesters think its good and it make it in 205). Please do a video about the playtest :)
<!--quoteo(post=1926290:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:35 AM:name=ReZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ReZ @ Apr 17 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you blanket the area with whips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whips can be easy killed by grenades, depend on distance, shoot grenades to the floor and think about the distance to the whip, Grenades must explode next to a whip and the whip die fast Also Arcs kill everything in their way.
Edit: I wonder what will they do against the ARC/Nade and Sentry spam. Powerlimit per room?
I think it will be an interesting change and i look forward to trying it out. I have my reservations and worries but i trust in Charlie and we should all give him 3-4 builds to really let the Alien Khamm... Bloom hehe.
<!--quoteo(post=1926291:date=Apr 17 2012, 09:39 AM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackpiranha @ Apr 17 2012, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have so little impact on the processing game that I don't really want to do that job at all, especially not the whole game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I second this. It seems extremely troublesome if an essential role in alien gameplay forces one player to sit back and play a 'soothing' and almost indifferent role. I'm fine with such roles being somewhat viable for a few players in a big team (think of a passive builder gorge in NS1), but any kind of obligatory role needs to have potential and possibilities so that it's meaningful and interesting to play more than once in a longer while.
<!--quoteo(post=1926296:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:52 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Apr 17 2012, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it will be an interesting change and i look forward to trying it out. I have my reservations and worries but i trust in Charlie and we should all give him 3-4 builds to really let the Alien Khamm... Bloom hehe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If 3-4 builds means almost 2 months of development time, it better be blooming at that point. After that they've got another 2 months left until the whole thing is supposed to be out. You can't really take second guesses at things this big anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1926299:date=Apr 17 2012, 09:12 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 17 2012, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If 3-4 builds means almost 2 months of development time, it better be blooming at that point. After that they've got another 2 months left until the whole thing is supposed to be out. You can't really take second guesses at things this big anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was hoping a build a week, but i agree with you if it takes more than 1 month to solidify the Alien Khamm role it should really be rethought... or given back to the gorge. (which the new Khamm now sounds like a stationary gorge)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines also have more interesting options in that they can take the current maturity level of structures into account. Hit the near Mature Harvester, or try to pick off the farther newborn one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Would the marine not think like "just kill cyst...not harvester"? Or did i forget something? cysts are changed too?
Those sound some really nice changes, making the experience from commanding aliens and marines, MUCh more notiable and interessting :)
The fact the gorg will have a bigger role to play once more, will make it much more interesting to play one, and should help with the "marines losing quickly". So I will be looking forward to trying this way of playing the aliens, tending to the Garden :D
this is going to make playing with gorge more rewording, but kinda puts aliens in a vulnerable position marines are almost unstoppable when they rush in groups early game for aliens will be dangerous. I'm upset about fury, I loved that ability other then that i love the new ideas and the direction being taken I just hope aliens aren't crushed with this new build
That was a good read and the changes are interesting. I will have to play it for a few nights before commenting fully really though obviously, as its impossible to before trying it. I feel the last 5 or 6 builds have speeded the game play up way too much and hopefully this will slow it down somewhat and bring some depth and strategy back to balance the combat.
The only problem I can see is a lot more Marine shotgun rushes early game when Aliens are weak and busy building/defending. Hydras need a buff in damage dealt out not just because of this but because as they are they are next to useless. Marines are not scared of them and an area that a Gorge has spent a fortune in pres on can be destroyed in very little time once GL's come into play. I very rarely see a Marine death by Hydras now and they are easily destroyed or avoided by simply running past them.
Aliens and Marines are now looking very different, as was the plan and the asymmetrical way the game is progressing is very exciting and congrats to UW and in particular Charlie for the game, his vision and the steady stream of builds. For a small team using a engine built from scratch, its all very impressive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone mentioned earlier, the Gorge res model will probably be changing, as well. What we are planning to do is not have his structures cost res, but he will have a limit of how many of a structure type he can build at one time. For example 3 hydras and 3 goo walls or something. Then he can "eat" his structures to replace them if he wants to move them. This could also allow us to possibly buff Hydras a bit more if there are going to be fewer of them. All of this is subject to change of course, but that is the current train of thought that we are on regarding the Gorge and his structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Would they be tied to hives as well? I.e will 2 hives give you more hydras/goo walls to play with? I feel the gorge may be a little empty with only 3 hydras and goo walls to tend to (where as for example in NS 1 you could build up entire corridors worth of OCs and DCs). Good to hear you guys are assessing the situation at least.
Also, what's going to stop everyone from going gorge to throw down 3 quick hydras? And won't this cause the problem of more higher-evolved lifeforms (fades, onos) for marines to deal with later in the game? (NS 1 was balanced around not all players having resources for onos or fade, because some had to save for hive, extractors, etc etc)
More on topic: I agree the drifter is still somewhat of a pointless mechanic, it would feel better to just have the buildings grow naturally from the ground up. To compensate newborns could be made even more vulnerable, not to mention marines can cut cysts to deny areas (so the argument that they need to be able to kill drifters is kind of moot imo). I'm also a little worried cyst spam is going to be even worse than before, at 1 p.res. This is because despite those nice new p.res abilities on cysts, the comm might still float in p.res.(I guess it will depend on how significant those new abilities turn out to be)
On the subject of the minicyst, while I agree the mini-cyst is an important part of gorging (being able to place it on walls and ceilings), I don't think anyone would disagree they're simply too expensive. They could easily go down to 1 - 2 p.res without becoming a problem. UWE should REALLY consider this as a stopgap for the time being (and perhaps even drop hydras a few p.res too)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I second this. It seems extremely troublesome if an essential role in alien gameplay forces one player to sit back and play a 'soothing' and almost indifferent role. I'm fine with such roles being somewhat viable for a few players in a big team (think of a passive builder gorge in NS1), but any kind of obligatory role needs to have potential and possibilities so that it's meaningful and interesting to play more than once in a longer while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is definitely true, and while it is certainly evolving in that direction (i.e a more enjoyable khamm and more depth and feel to and with the decision making process that is crucial to alien victory), it may still be insufficient. Though it's hard to assess from just reading a design paper. They could always end up expanding the khamm's role even further, by giving him more tech options, energy sinks, etc. (Since despite these exciting new changes the alien tech tree will still be small in comparison to the marine one)
Lastly, I'm still eager to hear about what will happen to the onos, since that remains a pressing balance issue even with these changes in place. It is my sincere belief that you can NOT balance the onos on just his abilities alone (like you can with other lifeforms) I.e an early onos with just gorge is still going to be devastating for the marine team. There needs to be some tech involved, or some way of scaling the onos from early to lategame.
Perhaps the onos too should mature, or the commander too should research mature onos, which makes him full size and grants full hp and armour. (So early game onos is going to be smalled with less hp and armour, like a young one)
This changes sounds really nice. Can't wait to play it too.
But I'm a bit afraid, that the occupation of the gorge with spamming heal spray on buildings, won't lead to more players playing gorge. We will have to play it first, but making the main purpose (or at least a very important one) of the gorge to speed up buildings, doesn't sound like fun. But maybe the res-free buildings will make up for this boring job.
On a side note: Is it possible to spread the infestation around a cyst in a sphere, (not a circle) so that it covers also walls and the ceiling? If this won't kill the server, it would make a great deal in adding immersion and atmosphere to infested areas. More than just a green floor.
<!--quoteo(post=1926291:date=Apr 17 2012, 09:39 AM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackpiranha @ Apr 17 2012, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a completely different feeling about the alien com..
His role remains boring, no matter which (small) changes are made, just read this:
<i>He’s not telling his team what to do - he’s giving them information and providing the best conditions he can and letting them choose their location, lifeform and tactics.</i>
It's basically playing Starcraft, chosing upgrades, spreading creep but without having any units. Sounds neat? Well yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it'd be more appropriate to compare it to Tower Defence games. I dunno, I guess there's not much room for skill improvement as a commander without having some direct equivalent of medpacks.
Also, another vote for axing the drifter building mechanic, it just doesn't feel good.
I use to love playing gorge in NS1, and I do enjoy the alien commander in NS2.
I agree completely with your take on the style of the alien commander as a relaxing support role. That's what the gorge often was for me, as someone who enabled my team from the background.
I do play the alien commander that way already to a large extent. I just focus on expanding my territory and building up defenses as I go, taking advantage of whatever breakthroughs my team achieves. I greatly enjoy the base building feel it has to it, as I expand cyst networks, move around whips, build support structures for my team, etc.
I haven't had a lot of experience yet though with it. I am not sure I like the active control over the defensive structures. Although it does have a place, it could get overwhelming trying to manage too many of them at once. So I'd prefer as much automation of defensive structures as possible, maybe with an option to override it if necessary.
Thoughts on changes: -I like the idea of structures maturing over time. Fits perfectly and saves resources. You also made a good choice allowing us to speed up the maturation of structures selectively via a commander ability.
-I don't think I agree with the idea of aliens expanding slowly. It never was that way. They were always good at expanding quickly, in NS1 and NS2. I think what you should do is make a distinction between quick expansion versus maturation of expansions. Although it should be easy to quickly expand to new territory, actually holding that territory would require more building up over time.
-I question the effectiveness of this new scheme to make gorges useful. Giving gorges all the responsibility to mature structures, without any of the fun of being able to control their placement, could just end up being very tedious. Plus if you make a gorge essential for securing expansions points via maturation of structures into something hardened enough to defend itself, then you're basically taking away one extra player from the battlefield on top of the commander. Granted in NS1 two gorges weren't uncommon, but one was not subservient to the other.
Gorge helping build stuff. From a 'balance' perspective, this was a good move. From a 'enjoying gorge' experiences perspective im not so sure. Would love to see more 'escape' or 'survival' mechanisms which will increase the gorge enjoyment factor while keeping its role similar to where you want to take it.
Pres sink for aliens. We've gone backwards for this one. Unless the 'pres sink' is basically evolving into higher lifeforms. (Not saying this is a bad thing, as long as the game is built around this fact)
Maturing and mist concept. Maturing doesn't cost tres. In fact while you are waiting for things to mature you have nothing else to do with your tres except aim for another hive. So in reality we're still focusing on getting hives up asap. Exception is if we failed to do that, we can last a bit longer by turtling for ?? 12-15? minutes before tier2 abilities gets unlocked? (assuming energy shortage).
Maturing a base costs time. Losing a matured area costs more than just the original tres. That means that when you play the 'trade bases' game with marines, aliens will start losing out now. This implies that aliens will end up more defensive by design in the new world (Again, not saying good or bad, just what I envision the change to become)
Im very intrigued about these changes, but im gonna wait about further commenting it until i've properly tested it.
Tho, i hope the Gorge will get some offensive capabilities again. I never really understood how the bile bomb change got justified.
Also - regarding drifters being an annoyance - How about making the following changes :
* Make structures directly placeable by the alien comm, structures would grow out of the infestation. * Structures would ONLY be placable on a connected cyst chain, if marines disconnect a chain from the hive new structures cannot be placed until it is reconnected. Structures cannot be placed on unconnected mini-cysts either. * Drifters remain capable of placing structures on unconnected infestation.
This way, its abit risky for gorges to put up sneaky infestation-islands since you have to get drifters out there. But generally they're out of the way for the commander. (It also strengthens the commander - gorge teamplay when rushing to forward resnodes)
I dont know if structures should build on their own on unconnected infestation (since i always visioned them go get their nutrition fed from the hive), or if the gorge has to accomodate for that aswell.
I like the design overall, I'm sure they will be some problems at first, but the whole thing sounds pretty cool.
The only thing I really dislike is this one :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commander can destroy a cyst completely, splashing infestation on nearby enemy units. This infestation splashes onto the marine view, partially obscuring their sight (use a heavier version of the Gorge spit effect).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was convincingly argued here ( <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117596" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117596</a> ) that ns2 has already too many of these kind of annoying mechanics.
Also I hope hive sight on infestation will be removed in favor of Foresight, infestation map-hack being not so great for strategic depth.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* Make structures directly placeable by the alien comm, structures would grow out of the infestation. * Structures would ONLY be placable on a connected cyst chain, if marines disconnect a chain from the hive new structures cannot be placed until it is reconnected. Structures cannot be placed on unconnected mini-cysts either. * Drifters remain capable of placing structures on unconnected infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea, drifters could even allow to build completely off infestation; sacrificing their body to provide a bit of infestation for a few minutes. They also would be required for hives.
Saw this coming from miles away! Great! I wa so highly frustrated that there were NO punish to early alien aggression, and i knew that you were working on it already! Gonna definately check it out when it comes!
Comments
Cysts can be dropped anywhere extremely quickly. Marines vs cysts as building denial is a lot different than marines vs drifters. (the former really doesn't work)
Rantology also just brought up a good point. They put in an entire patch to slow alien expansion.. Drifters do exactly that. You can't just instantly start building 10 whips out of the sky when you see a GL rush. You have to buy the drifters (which take time to build) and then buy the whips.
If you've seen the episode 'scar' of BSG then you'll know what I mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean the practically universally recognized worst episode of the series that everyone hated, including the cast? Not the greatest comparison, FYI ;P And that wasn't really Scar's thing anyways... he/it just "learned" more than the others and then decided to use that against the humans by ambushing and whatnot, <a href="http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Scar" target="_blank">didn't he</a>? (been awhile since I watched it... usually skip that atrocity) Not really a "I gained more power because I didn't explode really quick" kinda thing. Scar would be more akin to simply an experienced player that doesn't suicide constantly, not a lifeform that gains power by not dying.
More to the point of your post, I don't really see a need for the lifeforms to have that kind of change. What would the purpose be? Is it intended to actually balance something, or just a change for the sake of it? (curious as to the motive, not being a jerk :D)
Newborn buildings could be made weaker to compensate.
<!--QuoteBegin-GORGEous+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't just instantly start building 10 whips out of the sky when you see a GL rush. You have to buy the drifters (which take time to build) and then buy the whips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A non-issue if only mature whips have the ability to throw grenades back and the time it takes for them to mature equals the time it takes to build and get drifters into place.
Im loving the look of these changes, go cosmic gardeners!
shouldn't get hive cost reduced too?
This is almost exactly how I dreamt NS2 would be, back in the NS days.
This will get me back in the game after a hiatus of 4-5 updates.
All we need now is acctual dynamic infestation. I can wait a bit longer now =)
Good job! Now on to the testing, balancing and tweaking.
Get 205 out noooooow !
Unless you blanket the area with whips.
His role remains boring, no matter which (small) changes are made, just read this:
<i>He’s not telling his team what to do - he’s giving them information and providing the best conditions he can and letting them choose their location, lifeform and tactics.</i>
It's basically playing Starcraft, chosing upgrades, spreading creep but without having any units. Sounds neat? Well yeah.
You have so little impact on the processing game that I don't really want to do that job at all, especially not the whole game.
Everytime you will have that feeling of joining the teamfights on the ground in your head. This gets worse when playing 'competititve' - I'm pretty sure that sitting in your hive the whole clanmatch is very inefficient since you have to sacrifice 1 player for decorating the map. I think it will rather tend to a jump in and do this and that quickly and then jump out style especially since you have a good overview via zoomed minimap. That even worked in NS1.
Sidenote: Yes i have the NS2 Beta and tried the alien com many times.
And i guess changes are good, i played a lot old games now and some need a change.
I like the lerk has bilebomb now, so i guess we all can trust you guys.
it sounds like it has so much changes, anyway can't wait to test it out (if your playtesters think its good and it make it in 205).
Please do a video about the playtest :)
<!--quoteo(post=1926290:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:35 AM:name=ReZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ReZ @ Apr 17 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you blanket the area with whips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips can be easy killed by grenades, depend on distance, shoot grenades to the floor and think about the distance to the whip, Grenades must explode next to a whip and the whip die fast
Also Arcs kill everything in their way.
Edit:
I wonder what will they do against the ARC/Nade and Sentry spam.
Powerlimit per room?
I second this. It seems extremely troublesome if an essential role in alien gameplay forces one player to sit back and play a 'soothing' and almost indifferent role. I'm fine with such roles being somewhat viable for a few players in a big team (think of a passive builder gorge in NS1), but any kind of obligatory role needs to have potential and possibilities so that it's meaningful and interesting to play more than once in a longer while.
<!--quoteo(post=1926296:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:52 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Apr 17 2012, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it will be an interesting change and i look forward to trying it out. I have my reservations and worries but i trust in Charlie and we should all give him 3-4 builds to really let the Alien Khamm... Bloom hehe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 3-4 builds means almost 2 months of development time, it better be blooming at that point. After that they've got another 2 months left until the whole thing is supposed to be out. You can't really take second guesses at things this big anymore.
I was hoping a build a week, but i agree with you if it takes more than 1 month to solidify the Alien Khamm role it should really be rethought... or given back to the gorge. (which the new Khamm now sounds like a stationary gorge)
Would the marine not think like "just kill cyst...not harvester"? Or did i forget something? cysts are changed too?
The fact the gorg will have a bigger role to play once more, will make it much more interesting to play one, and should help with the "marines losing quickly". So I will be looking forward to trying this way of playing the aliens, tending to the Garden :D
The only problem I can see is a lot more Marine shotgun rushes early game when Aliens are weak and busy building/defending. Hydras need a buff in damage dealt out not just because of this but because as they are they are next to useless. Marines are not scared of them and an area that a Gorge has spent a fortune in pres on can be destroyed in very little time once GL's come into play. I very rarely see a Marine death by Hydras now and they are easily destroyed or avoided by simply running past them.
Aliens and Marines are now looking very different, as was the plan and the asymmetrical way the game is progressing is very exciting and congrats to UW and in particular Charlie for the game, his vision and the steady stream of builds. For a small team using a engine built from scratch, its all very impressive.
Sal
Also, what's going to stop everyone from going gorge to throw down 3 quick hydras? And won't this cause the problem of more higher-evolved lifeforms (fades, onos) for marines to deal with later in the game? (NS 1 was balanced around not all players having resources for onos or fade, because some had to save for hive, extractors, etc etc)
More on topic:
I agree the drifter is still somewhat of a pointless mechanic, it would feel better to just have the buildings grow naturally from the ground up. To compensate newborns could be made even more vulnerable, not to mention marines can cut cysts to deny areas (so the argument that they need to be able to kill drifters is kind of moot imo). I'm also a little worried cyst spam is going to be even worse than before, at 1 p.res. This is because despite those nice new p.res abilities on cysts, the comm might still float in p.res.(I guess it will depend on how significant those new abilities turn out to be)
On the subject of the minicyst, while I agree the mini-cyst is an important part of gorging (being able to place it on walls and ceilings), I don't think anyone would disagree they're simply too expensive. They could easily go down to 1 - 2 p.res without becoming a problem. UWE should REALLY consider this as a stopgap for the time being (and perhaps even drop hydras a few p.res too)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I second this. It seems extremely troublesome if an essential role in alien gameplay forces one player to sit back and play a 'soothing' and almost indifferent role. I'm fine with such roles being somewhat viable for a few players in a big team (think of a passive builder gorge in NS1), but any kind of obligatory role needs to have potential and possibilities so that it's meaningful and interesting to play more than once in a longer while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is definitely true, and while it is certainly evolving in that direction (i.e a more enjoyable khamm and more depth and feel to and with the decision making process that is crucial to alien victory), it may still be insufficient. Though it's hard to assess from just reading a design paper. They could always end up expanding the khamm's role even further, by giving him more tech options, energy sinks, etc. (Since despite these exciting new changes the alien tech tree will still be small in comparison to the marine one)
Lastly, I'm still eager to hear about what will happen to the onos, since that remains a pressing balance issue even with these changes in place. It is my sincere belief that you can NOT balance the onos on just his abilities alone (like you can with other lifeforms) I.e an early onos with just gorge is still going to be devastating for the marine team. There needs to be some tech involved, or some way of scaling the onos from early to lategame.
Perhaps the onos too should mature, or the commander too should research mature onos, which makes him full size and grants full hp and armour. (So early game onos is going to be smalled with less hp and armour, like a young one)
But I'm a bit afraid, that the occupation of the gorge with spamming heal spray on buildings, won't lead to more players playing gorge. We will have to play it first, but making the main purpose (or at least a very important one) of the gorge to speed up buildings, doesn't sound like fun.
But maybe the res-free buildings will make up for this boring job.
On a side note: Is it possible to spread the infestation around a cyst in a sphere, (not a circle) so that it covers also walls and the ceiling? If this won't kill the server, it would make a great deal in adding immersion and atmosphere to infested areas. More than just a green floor.
His role remains boring, no matter which (small) changes are made, just read this:
<i>He’s not telling his team what to do - he’s giving them information and providing the best conditions he can and letting them choose their location, lifeform and tactics.</i>
It's basically playing Starcraft, chosing upgrades, spreading creep but without having any units. Sounds neat? Well yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it'd be more appropriate to compare it to Tower Defence games. I dunno, I guess there's not much room for skill improvement as a commander without having some direct equivalent of medpacks.
Also, another vote for axing the drifter building mechanic, it just doesn't feel good.
I agree completely with your take on the style of the alien commander as a relaxing support role. That's what the gorge often was for me, as someone who enabled my team from the background.
I do play the alien commander that way already to a large extent. I just focus on expanding my territory and building up defenses as I go, taking advantage of whatever breakthroughs my team achieves.
I greatly enjoy the base building feel it has to it, as I expand cyst networks, move around whips, build support structures for my team, etc.
I haven't had a lot of experience yet though with it. I am not sure I like the active control over the defensive structures. Although it does have a place, it could get overwhelming trying to manage too many of them at once. So I'd prefer as much automation of defensive structures as possible, maybe with an option to override it if necessary.
Thoughts on changes:
-I like the idea of structures maturing over time. Fits perfectly and saves resources. You also made a good choice allowing us to speed up the maturation of structures selectively via a commander ability.
-I don't think I agree with the idea of aliens expanding slowly. It never was that way. They were always good at expanding quickly, in NS1 and NS2.
I think what you should do is make a distinction between quick expansion versus maturation of expansions. Although it should be easy to quickly expand to new territory, actually holding that territory would require more building up over time.
-I question the effectiveness of this new scheme to make gorges useful. Giving gorges all the responsibility to mature structures, without any of the fun of being able to control their placement, could just end up being very tedious.
Plus if you make a gorge essential for securing expansions points via maturation of structures into something hardened enough to defend itself, then you're basically taking away one extra player from the battlefield on top of the commander. Granted in NS1 two gorges weren't uncommon, but one was not subservient to the other.
Pres sink for aliens. We've gone backwards for this one. Unless the 'pres sink' is basically evolving into higher lifeforms. (Not saying this is a bad thing, as long as the game is built around this fact)
Maturing and mist concept.
Maturing doesn't cost tres. In fact while you are waiting for things to mature you have nothing else to do with your tres except aim for another hive.
So in reality we're still focusing on getting hives up asap. Exception is if we failed to do that, we can last a bit longer by turtling for ?? 12-15? minutes before tier2 abilities gets unlocked? (assuming energy shortage).
Maturing a base costs time. Losing a matured area costs more than just the original tres.
That means that when you play the 'trade bases' game with marines, aliens will start losing out now. This implies that aliens will end up more defensive by design in the new world (Again, not saying good or bad, just what I envision the change to become)
Tho, i hope the Gorge will get some offensive capabilities again. I never really understood how the bile bomb change got justified.
Also - regarding drifters being an annoyance - How about making the following changes :
* Make structures directly placeable by the alien comm, structures would grow out of the infestation.
* Structures would ONLY be placable on a connected cyst chain, if marines disconnect a chain from the hive new structures cannot be placed until it is reconnected. Structures cannot be placed on unconnected mini-cysts either.
* Drifters remain capable of placing structures on unconnected infestation.
This way, its abit risky for gorges to put up sneaky infestation-islands since you have to get drifters out there. But generally they're out of the way for the commander. (It also strengthens the commander - gorge teamplay when rushing to forward resnodes)
I dont know if structures should build on their own on unconnected infestation (since i always visioned them go get their nutrition fed from the hive), or if the gorge has to accomodate for that aswell.
Just kidding, looking forward to try this out.
is it really viable to wait on tier 2 & spend mist or gorge time on other things?
The only thing I really dislike is this one :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commander can destroy a cyst completely, splashing infestation on nearby enemy units. This infestation splashes onto the marine view, partially obscuring their sight (use a heavier version of the Gorge spit effect).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was convincingly argued here ( <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117596" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117596</a> ) that ns2 has already too many of these kind of annoying mechanics.
Also I hope hive sight on infestation will be removed in favor of Foresight, infestation map-hack being not so great for strategic depth.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* Make structures directly placeable by the alien comm, structures would grow out of the infestation.
* Structures would ONLY be placable on a connected cyst chain, if marines disconnect a chain from the hive new structures cannot be placed until it is reconnected. Structures cannot be placed on unconnected mini-cysts either.
* Drifters remain capable of placing structures on unconnected infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea, drifters could even allow to build completely off infestation; sacrificing their body to provide a bit of infestation for a few minutes. They also would be required for hives.
RAGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE