Whichbot

clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
edited April 2004 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Official WhichBot thread</div> The previous <a href='http://whichbot.com' target='_blank'>WhichBot</a> thread has been dead so long it's time for a new one...

<b>v0.91 of <a href='http://whichbot.com' target='_blank'>WhichBot</a> is now available!</b> This is for <b>NS v3.0b3 ONLY</b>. Please note that the latest distribution build includes Metamod in the zip file, so don't unzip that if you already have Metamod installed.

If you haven't heard of <a href='http://whichbot.com' target='_blank'>WhichBot</a> before, here's the current high-level feature list:<ul><li>Most advanced alien AI for <a href='http://natural-selection.org' target='_blank'>Natural Selection</a> available.</li><li>Compatible with <a href='http://natural-selection.org' target='_blank'>Natural Selection 3.0b3</a>.</li><li>Acts as a <a href='http://metamod.org' target='_blank'>Metamod</a> plugin for easy integration with other server plugins.</li><li>Support for all alien lifeforms: Skulk, Gorge, Lerk, Fade and Onos.</li><li>Support for both Natural Selection: Classic and Natural Selection: Combat gameplay modes.</li><li>Dynamic waypoint-based navigation using the Pathematics algorithm powers real-time tactical analysis of map layout which changes as players and bots build structures.</li><li>HiveMind enables bot cooperation and pack-based movement.</li><li>Robotics-based reactive movement allows a wide range of movement, including vent navigation for Skulks and full flight for Lerks.</li><li>Team auto-balancing enables server admins to easily control the number of bots playing on a server.</li><li>Support for 19 of the standard NS 3.0b3 maps.</li><li>Bots respond to attacks on their hives and come to their defense.</li><li>Bots report successful attacks and new structures found to human players on their side to enable better bot/human teamwork.</li><li>Gorge bots are now able to build the full range of alien structures: hives and resource, offense, movement, defense and sensory chambers.</li><li>Advanced behaviour engine allows blending of different behaviours (scouting, attacking, defense, etc) in different proportions depending on the HiveMind-assigned role of a given bot.</li><li>Compatible with <a href='http://rcbot.houstondod.com' target='_blank'>RCBot</a>, see the <a href='http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=16096&group_id=76903' target='_blank'>FAQ</a> for details.</li><li>All source code and data files online and available for free (as in beer) use under the <a href='http://whichbot.com/licensing.html' target='_blank'>WhichBot license</a>.</li></ul>Changes since v0.86:<ul><li> Steam is now the officially supported WB platform. WB will work (more or less) under WON but may be more buggy.</li><li> Replaced bundled metamod version with v1.17a from modns.org (http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=237&st=0).</li><li> Added support for Natural Selection: Combat, including waypoints for all the official Combat maps!</li><li> Added lerk support! Includes actual flight! Lerks should also use all their weapons now.</li><li> Tweaked skulk/lerk/gorge movement so hopefully they'll dodge a little better in a fight.</li><li> Fixed bug that caused gorges to sometimes never build structures.</li><li> Fixed bug that caused gorges to build more chambers than necessary when 2 gorges decided to build them at nearly the same time (it will still happen very occasionally but hopefully not as often).</li><li> Fixed bug that caused bots joining a game after round start to inherit the upgrades/lifeform/etc of the first bot to start playing. This will still happen in WON mode (but not Steam), but even then the bots will not be confused (previously, a bot spawning in as a Lerk would think it was a skulk, for example).</li><li> Fixed an ancient hack where bots were using people's max health to work out what evolution they were.</li><li> Fixed a bug that caused gorge "stuck" teleportation to break.</li><li> Fixed a bug that caused higher lifeforms to sometimes think they were skulks when they weren't.</li><li> Fixed a bug that caused occasional crashes in WON mode.</li><li> Fixed bug in evasion that caused less zig-zags than there were supposed to be.</li><li> Added targeting fix so ranged weapons aren't quite so awful.</li><li> Fixed a bug that caused global say commands to be broken.</li><li> Bots like celerity more these days.</li><li> Added waypoints for ns_metal & ns_agora (credit to Squidget!)</li><li> Updated waypoints for ns_veil (credit to Sandman[SA]!)</li><li> Added waypoints for ns_hera (credit to Sandman[SA]!)</li><li> Added waypoints for ns_nancy (credit to Atomic, Jeezuz and Sandman[SA]!)</li><li> Added waypoints for ns_mineshaft (credit to mrex!)</li></ul>You can always download <a href='http://whichbot.com' target='_blank'>WhichBot</a> from <a href='http://whichbot.com' target='_blank'>whichbot.com</a>.

Enjoy! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Comments

  • CutterJoeCutterJoe Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11594Members, Constellation
    STICKY STICKY for all the nubs wanting to practice like myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.

    GJ clamatius

    <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
    do which bot waypoints work with rcbot waypoints?
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->  do which bot waypoints work with rcbot waypoints?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Good question. No, but the file format is the same. It can be a little easier to start with RCBot waypoints than starting from scratch.
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  • ClashenClashen Join Date: 2003-08-22 Member: 20087Members
    Should I just install this version over the old, or shall i remove the old version before?
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Should I just install this version over the old, or shall i remove the old version before?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Firstly, note that this version only works for the NS beta 3.03. v0.86 was for NS 2.01.

    You should probably remove the old version first just to make 100% sure any old waypoint files that won't work with the new beta maps are removed. It probably won't matter, though.
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  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
    I've been waiting for this for long enough that I nearly forgot about it. This is going to be stickied here in Gen. Discussion for a bit. At least until another mod/admin comes in and reminds me that we don't want even more clutter up in the stickied thread area <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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  • RSMemphisRSMemphis Join Date: 2003-08-19 Member: 19953Members
    On the topic of bots - does anyone have CO waypoints for the rcbot? Yes, I know, rcbots do not yet purchase anything in CO, but still, it could be fun.

    Also, I used both the 0.90h whichbot, and the new 0.91 whichbot. It seems that skulks are easier to kill in 0.91 than in the 0.90h pre-release.
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  • AposApos Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation
    I wish the Whichbot and rcbots were just folded together into one project. It would be really great if there was a sort of "commander training" option that was really easy to set up so that a single real player could practice ordering around marines against a computer controlled alien team. The current setup is just too difficult for new players to figure out how to get working in such a configuration.
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  • AposApos Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation
    Wait, does rcbot even work with 3b3? Aren't the waypoints way outdated?
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  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    edited March 2004
    Waypoints for maps like Hera are significantly outdated. You can always search for updated waypoints or make your own. While RCBots won't purchase upgrades, their squad code keeps them together and somewhat dangerous. From what I understand, the reason RCBots still don't support combat upgrades is due to lack of information about how to determine what upgrades marines have, what level they are, and how to get them.
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  • GuspazGuspaz Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2862Members, Constellation
    Doesn't/didn't RCbot also have a no-waypoint mode? I seem to recall it being the primary mode back in the day.
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  • CheesehCheeseh Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7135Members
    edited March 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Guspaz+Mar 29 2004, 12:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guspaz @ Mar 29 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Doesn't/didn't RCbot also have a no-waypoint mode? I seem to recall it being the primary mode back in the day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It used to (old bot version 0.3 etc), and I might add it back into the current one. The current one has a god-awful cpu-intensive nav (non-waypointed that is, waypoint nav is fine) which is pretty crap as I couldn't be bothered to work much on it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> but I might spend some time on it again.. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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  • CaCaCaCa Join Date: 2003-06-12 Member: 17319Members
    <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>as I had suggested to you bot makin' guys eons ago (like before NSb2.0 <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ):</span>

    I still think <b>clam</b> n' <b>Cheeseh</b> should merge their projects somehow, so to have a good generic NS bot, that plays on both sides of course (but not commander)...

    after all, 'seems you 2 out of all the NS worldwide community have been laid the karma of NaSAIC (Natural Selection Artificial Intelligence Creation <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), right?...
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  • GruuuntGruuunt Join Date: 2003-11-07 Member: 22353Members
    I can testify after following through the beta tests of whichbot 0.91 how wicked the aliens will play in combat.

    I have been running it on my server since earlier this year when the beta program was announced and can recommend it to anyone who 'fancies' a challenge!
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  • RaVeRaVe Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17538Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-CaCa+Mar 28 2004, 10:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaCa @ Mar 28 2004, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>as I had suggested to you bot makin' guys eons ago (like before NSb2.0 <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ):</span>

    I still think <b>clam</b> n' <b>Cheeseh</b> should merge their projects somehow, so to have a good generic NS bot, that plays on both sides of course (but not commander)...

    after all, 'seems you 2 out of all the NS worldwide community have been laid the karma of NaSAIC (Natural Selection Artificial Intelligence Creation <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), right?... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That would be close to impossible to write since RCBot is written from the HPBBot source, and Whichbot is written from (what I think) scratch.

    Of course, merging them would need a major code rewrite for Whichbot.
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  • PetitMortePetitMorte Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7232Members
    Are there any plans to allow Whichbot to play Combat maps?
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  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    Do the which bots still just run in staight lines, or can they actually ambush?
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  • RSMemphisRSMemphis Join Date: 2003-08-19 Member: 19953Members
    PetitMort - yes - 0.91 plays combat without a problem, and will evolve easily.

    Forlorn - no, they don't ambush, and they like to take the same path over and over, so they are actually quite easy to kill, as long as you only have to pay attention to two at the same time.

    Actually, I like that gorges and skulks seem to team up on occassion.

    And I am still looking for CO waypoints for RCBot (which works fine with Beta 3, in classic mode at least). And google was not my friend. <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    edited March 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do the which bots still just run in staight lines, or can they actually ambush?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, they can't ambush (deliberately, at least). It's kind of a hard problem when you think about it. It's theoretically possible although I have to admit without having the bots cheat somewhat to work out marine paths it would be tricky.

    v0.91 has some updated code for dodging so they shouldn't run straight towards you any more. That, of course, means they may take longer to get to you so in terms of how much harder they are to kill, your mileage may vary. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That would be close to impossible to write since RCBot is written from the HPBBot source, and Whichbot is written from (what I think) scratch.

    Of course, merging them would need a major code rewrite for Whichbot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That isn't how you'd do it for what people actually want, which is just an easier way of installing/controlling both bot programs at the same time. The easiest thing to do would be to bundle the install packages and add some commands that would control both bots.
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  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, they can't ambush (deliberately, at least). It's kind of a hard problem when you think about it. It's theoretically possible although I have to admit without having the bots cheat somewhat to work out marine paths it would be tricky.

    v0.91 has some updated code for dodging so they shouldn't run straight towards you any more. That, of course, means they may take longer to get to you so in terms of how much harder they are to kill, your mileage may vary.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Use chokepoints.

    Just tell the bots to run in a straight line untill they hit a chokepoint on the map, and then they camp there.

    I must admit, this would be a real pain in the **** as maps are always changing, but you could always include waypoint controls with the program (if you already haven't).
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Use chokepoints.

    Just tell the bots to run in a straight line untill they hit a chokepoint on the map, and then they camp there.

    I must admit, this would be a real pain in the **** as maps are always changing, but you could always include waypoint controls with the program (if you already haven't).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    See, this is what I'm talking about. It's not nearly as simple as that. What if the marines have phase gates? Then you have bots waiting there for nothing. What if the marines are spreading out over the other end of the map, capping every RT? Etc, etc.

    If you think about what you are doing as a skulk, you're trying to predict where the marines are likely to go and then waiting in some suitable place there so you'll get the drop on them. That's what the bots should do, too. Trouble is, that prediction is a tad tricky.
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  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    Well, phase gates shouldn't matter too much, because if they do have a phase gate in your territory, you want to pressure the hell out of it, so it's good to have skulks constantly pressure that

    On the other hand skulks are the only one's who should ambush, but once bigger classes come around have them attack with the fades and stuff

    Here's an example of what I mean by using chokepoints:


    - Eclipse


    - Have one skulk at power sub covering that long hallway, one skulk at horseshoe, and one at traid. Have them use aimbots for parasite and then have skulks home in on them and drop in on them or whatever, make an algorithm so that skulks just stay around a courner if they see a parasited marine and make them jump out at blazing speeding biting the marines, nothing fancy but a nice ambush nonetheless


    - Veil

    - Out of the skulks who don't go gorge, divide them in half and have them wait around the chokepoints parasiting and then attacking as soon as marines get super close, if they can't kill the marines they then just go back to the parasited marines and keep attacking them and then move back to the chokepoint



    For fades just make them not attack marine base untill 2 hives are up so you can make them use metabolize (which would make them easier to smash bases with and stuff), while they are not attacking marine base make the fades go around the map in a wide fashion scouting for prey and stuff, or make the fades hone in on any marines that are parasited outside of marine start


    I'm sure you can get creative


    Also don't get too hung up on the exceptions that marines can pull, just take little steps and in no time you will have alien bots that are worthy of a single player game.

    Keep up the good work, I'm gonna get these installed on our server soon as I remember the old versions were massivly fun to tool around with. I'm just trying to help ya as this project owns tbh
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    All good points. However, the way that I often see people playing against the bots is a slow turret farm turtle forwards, because the bots have trouble coordinating enough to break into an electrified turret farm.

    In terms of increasing the win % for an all-bot team (which is currently pretty much 0 unless the marines die to an early rush), assaulting defended positions and reliably taking down electrified RTs seem to be their highest strategic priorities.

    OTOH, maybe that's just trying to shut the barn door after the horse has already left and they should be trying to contain the marines in base more with chokepoint camping. It's definitely an interesting problem.
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  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    You could increase the difficulty level of WhichBot with strategic, tactical, and situational AI, in addition to the individual AI already present. I'm aware that having seperate AIs would be considered cheating, however it seems the most cpu-efficient way to give aliens a counter to the marine commander and squad-based tactics.

    The goal of the strategic AI is to order alien packs to control important points on the map and control the allocation of the alien team's resources. The strategic AI chooses which aliens go into a pack, what upgrades and evolution they have, where they attack, and when, if necessary, to retreat. The strategic AI also controls the gorge's building activity.

    The goal of the tactical AI is to coordinate aliens in a pack. The tactical AI seeks to maximize the chances of success by executing the best tactics based on the current situation. This means leveraging all the available attacks that the alien pack has, from umbra, to bilebomb, to stomp, to healspray. This also means aliens choosing which target they should attack first, such as the phasegate in a hive lockdown.

    The goal of the situational AI is to predict the probability of success based on empirical data. The situational AI has base-line information on chances of success vs. specific situations, such as the chance of 3 unupgraded skulks vs an electified RT. It also compiles information during the game to update probabilities empirically. The other AIs use this AI to weigh the available choices.

    The goal of the individual AI is to control the alien to successfully complete tasks assigned by the other AIs. This involves very basic things such as navigating from point to point, attacking, building, evolving, and so on.
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    Just FYI, WB already has a very basic strategic planner which groups up bots into a pack and controls some priorities. It's nowhere near as complex as I would like it to be just because I don't have the oodles of time required to actually do a full-scale implementation, sadly.

    The base AI isn't task-based, it's more non-linear - you can think of it as an intuitive system. The bot knows it has a desire to go towards some place A, but doesn't really know why (actually, there's typically a whole lot of conflicting desires that lead it to that conclusion). That makes for flexibility but also makes squad-level planning more difficult. The way I deal with that problem is to designate a squad leader who does all the "thinking" & intuitive stuff and the squad followers just have a really strong desire to follow the leader.

    Right now the pack impl is pretty simple and there's only ever 1 pack at a time. Bots are either in scout configuration, gorge configuration or pack configuration. It doesn't have to be that way, it's just the way it's written right now. I'd like to make it more dynamic so bots can join or leave the pack as required - e.g. for a joint rush on a fortified position, you'd have everyone join except gorges with a lot of spare res.

    All I need is, oh, about 2 months doing nothing but WB and I could make it much better <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    (alas, job, wife & small child cut into that time a teensy bit)

    I don't know if you guys care about me rabbiting on about the technical details but I could probably go on for a long time <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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  • AposApos Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation
    I love hearing the technical details, actually. These are very interesting issues when you really get down to it: you need to create very complex behavior without overtaxing the very limited processor resources available. An extremely touch problem.

    I don't think camping would work unless the bots had a much more complex register of tactical information about what marines are up to. It would probably be possible if the bots had some concept of "friendly vs. enemy controlled" territory that was tailored to the map and then counted all areas around a known phase gate as enemy territory, but this would be time consuming to work out for each map.

    In combat, me vs. a single whichbot seems to have the WB start itself out with full upgrades (in my case a carapaced celerity regen adren lerk) which was sort of weird (and almost impossible as a vanilla marine!) The game also didn't end when I killed the hive and it killed the CC.
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  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
    edited March 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-clamatius+Mar 29 2004, 12:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (clamatius @ Mar 29 2004, 12:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [...]
    No, they can't ambush (deliberately, at least).  It's kind of a hard problem when you think about it.  It's theoretically possible although I have to admit without having the bots cheat somewhat to work out marine paths it would be tricky.
    [...]
    See, this is what I'm talking about. It's not nearly as simple as that. What if the marines have phase gates? Then you have bots waiting there for nothing. What if the marines are spreading out over the other end of the map, capping every RT? Etc, etc.

    If you think about what you are doing as a skulk, you're trying to predict where the marines are likely to go and then waiting in some suitable place there so you'll get the drop on them. That's what the bots should do, too. Trouble is, that prediction is a tad tricky. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Mark me down on the list of people interested and curious about technical details. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Two mixed questions regarding ambushing and "learning" of phase gates/new enemy traffic routes:
    Do the bots (packleader type or not) have a short-term memory capable of thinking "I just saw that yellow parasite circle move from there to there to there" rather than just "Right now I see a yellow circle in that position"?
    Can they "learn" which areas get the most traffic (by seeing yellow circles or the marines themselves)?
    What about learning which direction traffic is most likely to flow?
    Though this learning or the waypoints themselves, can bots know which routes adjacent to high-traffic zones are darkest and least usable by normal walking marines? [read: vents] [read: ambush points]
    Can one with scent of fear communicate enemy locations and movements to others?

    [edit]What I'm trying to get at is this: As a regular person sitting at my computer on the alien team, I have a short-term memory of where I've seen marines travel for the current game. If I think one or more of their traffic routes branch off from a given area, I mentally trace that traffic route back to try to hear/see a phase gate or infantry portal. When a phase gate or infantry portal is in an area, I think of it as a "source" of marines that branches out into their new traffic route(s) of choice.
    Throw in existing abilities (parasite, scent of fear) and I don't have to see the marines themselves.

    Am I asking for too much? Err scratch that question...I know I probably am <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> But would it solve the problem of getting bots to think in terms of the initial marine spawn as not being the only "source" of marines?
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In combat, me vs. a single whichbot seems to have the WB start itself out with full upgrades (in my case a carapaced celerity regen adren lerk) which was sort of weird (and almost impossible as a vanilla marine!) The game also didn't end when I killed the hive and it killed the CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You have sv_cheats on. If you do, the bots figure that if you're cheating they'll cheat too. In cheats mode, the game doesn't ever end as it does normally.
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do the bots (packleader type or not) have a short-term memory capable of thinking "I just saw that yellow parasite circle move from there to there to there" rather than just "Right now I see a yellow circle in that position"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The latter. They know where buildings are and where parasited marines currently are.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can they "learn" which areas get the most traffic (by seeing yellow circles or the marines themselves)?
    What about learning which direction traffic is most likely to flow?
    Though this learning or the waypoints themselves, can bots know which routes adjacent to high-traffic zones are darkest and least usable by normal walking marines? [read: vents] [read: ambush points]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They don't currently do this - and that's what I was trying to explain to Forlorn earlier. It's not very easy to do but I think it might be technically possible. Don't count on this one showing up for a while, it would be a whole lot of work. I'd love to have the time to do it, though.
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can one with scent of fear communicate enemy locations and movements to others?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I could use this to "cheat" and effectively treat marines as parasited if a bot could see them with sense of fear, I guess. Right now they never bother taking SoF.

    The higher-level non-cheating thing you'd have to implement first for marine movement analysis would be hearing. Right now the bots can't hear you, they just see you. Without that they'd have to cheat somewhat.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-clamatius+Mar 29 2004, 11:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (clamatius @ Mar 29 2004, 11:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In combat, me vs. a single whichbot seems to have the WB start itself out with full upgrades (in my case a carapaced celerity regen adren lerk) which was sort of weird (and almost impossible as a vanilla marine!) The game also didn't end when I killed the hive and it killed the CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You have sv_cheats on. If you do, the bots figure that if you're cheating they'll cheat too. In cheats mode, the game doesn't ever end as it does normally.
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do the bots (packleader type or not) have a short-term memory capable of thinking "I just saw that yellow parasite circle move from there to there to there" rather than just "Right now I see a yellow circle in that position"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The latter. They know where buildings are and where parasited marines currently are.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can they "learn" which areas get the most traffic (by seeing yellow circles or the marines themselves)?
    What about learning which direction traffic is most likely to flow?
    Though this learning or the waypoints themselves, can bots know which routes adjacent to high-traffic zones are darkest and least usable by normal walking marines? [read: vents] [read: ambush points]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They don't currently do this - and that's what I was trying to explain to Forlorn earlier. It's not very easy to do but I think it might be technically possible. Don't count on this one showing up for a while, it would be a whole lot of work. I'd love to have the time to do it, though.
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can one with scent of fear communicate enemy locations and movements to others?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I could use this to "cheat" and effectively treat marines as parasited if a bot could see them with sense of fear, I guess. Right now they never bother taking SoF.

    The higher-level non-cheating thing you'd have to implement first for marine movement analysis would be hearing. Right now the bots can't hear you, they just see you. Without that they'd have to cheat somewhat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Bah who cares if they cheat they lack intelligence give em aimbots/wallhacks


    Also turret farms wouldn't be a problem if they didn't constantly rush them and feed the marine's res.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • ClashenClashen Join Date: 2003-08-22 Member: 20087Members
    I have a little problem, or two actually.

    1st: When i kill one of the bots it just stays thare, i doesen't respawn or anything so i have to kick them and add a new one.

    2nd: In Combat, they just evolve to what they want, for example i had an Onos with 0 kills, after 1min <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
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