<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the maps are larger, and more difficult to control, then larger players can easily play as marines will be forced to spread out and therefore lower the combat scenerio's to packs of 2-4 marines on the map at any one time, not 5-8.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Too bad that Flayra doesn't want things that way. He has resisted changes to the game like different res flow for different numbers of players, as well as maps based on game size. You can't start building seperate maps for every possible number of players. It's not feesible. If you make a large map for these 'large games' then what happens if players drop? The game becomes unplayable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I made the analogy to to starcraft, between Zerglings and Marines. I also pointed out that the marines would lose in Starcraft, even with large numbers, providing the map was open enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yet another Starcraft comparison... <sih> We're not playing Starcraft, we're playing NS. You cant compare the two in this manner since there are a number of key differences that make any meaningful comparison inaccurate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I did not understand that<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->In other words, you didn;'t read the post. I made it quite clear.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->because it would not make anymore sense to me to nerf the fade/onos. Making them any weaker would make them cannon fodder, esp. on smaller games versus HMG's. I thought it was a mistake or whatever but now that you say those are indeed how the numbers work, I must say the idea sounds worse than ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree.
I can't see how a lower armor fade would be cannon fodder in smaller games. Right now fades are invincinble in small games unless you get a pile of HA/HMG to take them on. The problem is that fades will show up FAR earlier than what is possible to research or afford such firepower.
As I said though (which you probably missed since you keep missing my point) is that this would be in conjunction with pulling carapace off the D chamber and putting it on the hives. So that 'weak' hive one fade would get stronger once hives two and three dropped. It's intuitive and gives marines a chance to hold off an early game higher evolution without nerfing across the board.
It's too bad that some people only criticize the suggestions of others without offering anything constructive. I find everything you reply with is unnecessarily negative and critical, and it doesn't help us find solutions to these problems. I often wonder if you revel in the chaos of making unfounded accusations just to start arguments.
People need to be less critical about others and instead offer their own tangible suggestions. Posts in this forum are meant to draw constructive comments, and if people don't like an idea they should post their OWN idea instead of just rambling off on why they don't like it.
Try being part of the solution instead of part of the problem. It would be a hundred times more helpful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, the fix for the arms lab is to make it proportional to the amount of marines playing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there are two solutions here:
1. Bring the marine upgrade system into alignment with the alien upgrade system. 2. Bring the alien upgrade system into alignment with the marine upgrade system.
To accomplish #1, add a variable upkeep cost to the armory, depending on marine team size.
To accomplish #2, remove the cost of alien upgrades (while possibly making the chambers more expensive to place).
I think #2 is more intuitive, and requires new players to remember one less arbitrary number. But #1 would probably work just as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 25 2004, 02:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 25 2004, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Right now fades are invincinble in small games unless you get a pile of HA/HMG to take them on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This does not follow logically as fades have a finite amount of health and armor and will expire upon receiving lethal damage - regardless of weapon type.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too bad that Flayra doesn't want things that way. He has resisted changes to the game like different res flow for different numbers of players, as well as maps based on game size. You can't start building seperate maps for every possible number of players. It's not feesible. If you make a large map for these 'large games' then what happens if players drop? The game becomes unplayable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. Still, I don't think that changing armor values depending on player sizes is key.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet another Starcraft comparison... <sih> We're not playing Starcraft, we're playing NS. You cant compare the two in this manner since there are a number of key differences that make any meaningful comparison inaccurate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice I did not say my analogies were 100% on the ball, rather that I said they were analogies and the starcraft example was merely to get across my point of how marine firepower stacks in both NS and SC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see how a lower armor fade would be cannon fodder in smaller games. Right now fades are invincinble in small games unless you get a pile of HA/HMG to take them on. The problem is that fades will show up FAR earlier than what is possible to research or afford such firepower.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are quite combatable with lv. 1 armor and lv. 2 shotguns.
Your oppinion is not valid at all in my eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I said though (which you probably missed since you keep missing my point) is that this would be in conjunction with pulling carapace off the D chamber and putting it on the hives. So that 'weak' hive one fade would get stronger once hives two and three dropped. It's intuitive and gives marines a chance to hold off an early game higher evolution without nerfing across the board.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting up a second hive can be quite difficult to do in competetive and pub games alike, and putting more dependance on hives isn't a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's too bad that some people only criticize the suggestions of others without offering anything constructive. I find everything you reply with is unnecessarily negative and critical, and it doesn't help us find solutions to these problems. I often wonder if you revel in the chaos of making unfounded accusations just to start arguments. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do offer plenty of suggestions, for example the universal upgrade solutions, as well as making map specific for teamsizes.
Also I'm not that negative, please stop associating tone with my text. If you actually hear me speak all of this, you'd find me pretty friendly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 25 2004, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 25 2004, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Getting up a second hive can be quite difficult to do in competetive and pub games alike, and putting more dependance on hives isn't a good thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont see how thats related.
Hmm, I agree with the premises, and I think your R4K revision shows merit, but I dislike your alien armor suggestion. It's less of a question of "will it work and balance the game"; rather it's more along the lines of "why do we have to introduce these fugly mechanics into the game?". Although I realize that it's impractical to change the fundamental aspects of NS gameplay, introducing messy mechanics that just patch up the symptoms is no better.
Also, there's nothing wrong with just providing criticism. Are you saying that others can't critique you if they don't have their own ideas? Despite what you think, the criticism I've seen here is pretty constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 25 2004, 08:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 25 2004, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My system makes the marine upgrades <b>dyanamic</b>, in order to compensate for a <b>dynamic</b> alien res sytem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just have to say that the alien res system is not dynamic, it is linear which is why it causes so many problems. They get the same amount of res per rt, teamwise, the entire game.
It appears to be dynamic due to the fact that the res is spread out to the players of the team. So when you have more players, you get less res and vise versa.
If the alien res flow was in fact dynamic, the more players you have the more res you get per rt, then bigger games wouldn't be an issue res wise for the alien team.
The point being if one team had dynamic res flow, or both but it would have to be working in the opposite of each other, then the games would be closer to balance as far as the 'res system' is concerned. Just makes sense to have the alien res system change due to the fact of how it is distributed. This (true dynamic alien res) coupled with the dynamic upgrade cost may work well if the costs never got too high for marines.
Well, I think that one step towards balance, especially in large games, would be keep alien RFK, but get rid of RFK for the marines, this way marines can't get res as fast (in large games) and it wont effect small games as much. Another solution would be giving the kharaa 2-4 RFK (depending on team size, as Savant suggested) and *always* giving the marines only 1 rfk.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fades are quite combatable with lv. 1 armor and lv. 2 shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Really? Since when can you hit anything with a shottie when it is flying around the room? The shot spread makes the shottie only good for up close and personal encounters. If the fade surprises you then you are dead. Shottie or not. Blink in, kill one marine, blink out to heal. Rinse and repeat until squad is dead. If the second hive is up then the fade is even more deadly since they can get level 3 carapace and use meta to heal.
The problem is that the fade can show up SO SOON in a game that you can't be prepared for it. You also can't just say "let's up the fade cost" since the cost isn't the problem.
You keep saying the game needs to be balanced for large and small games, yet you refuse to acknowledge potential solutions. If the alien team can churn out a fade that cannot be killed by early game marine weapons, then it is a problem. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Getting up a second hive can be quite difficult to do in competetive and pub games alike, and putting more dependance on hives isn't a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The game was DESIGNED around hive dependance. The move away from hive dependance was done out of necessity, not out of a want to remove that dependancy. Without that need to secure other hives you end up with a simple combat game. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also I'm not that negative, please stop associating tone with my text. If you actually hear me speak all of this, you'd find me pretty friendly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->As the saying goes, it's not what you say it's how you say it. The majority of your posts tend to be scathing criticizms of the suggestions made by others. I'm not singlingyou out here, but I just find that you tend to be intolerant of those that don't share your opinion of what the game should be like.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, there's nothing wrong with just providing criticism. Are you saying that others can't critique you if they don't have their own ideas? Despite what you think, the criticism I've seen here is pretty constructive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm all for constructive criticizm, but within a certain context. My issue is that too many people seek to only see the BAD in a given suggestion and not the GOOD in it. Instead of peole being so negative, why can't people be more positive in their criticizms? Instead of condemning ideas, why not offer a different point of view?
Criticizm on its own serves no purpose. I could tell you before i posted my original message that some people wouldn't like it. No one had to post and tell me that. There are loads of different people with different ideas. I don't expect everyone to agree.
However, this isn't a debate forum, it's a forum to further advance the GAME. If people have personal ideas and opinions, that's fine in the general forum, but in this forum the game should come FIRST. So instead of scathing criticizm, perhaps more people could look on the positive side of things.
Instead of what is wrong with an idea, what is right with it? (IE look for the good in the suggestion even if only a small portion is agreeable) Suggest alternatives that run in the same vein.
No one says everyone has to agree, but just posting to say you don't like an idea without contributing anything else is a waste of all of our time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 25 2004, 08:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 25 2004, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 25 2004, 02:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 25 2004, 02:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My system makes the marine upgrades <b>dyanamic</b>, in order to compensate for a <b>dynamic</b> alien res sytem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I beg to differ. Your system only alters the initial purchase price. As I said, once purchased, it's purchased. That's hardly dynamically altering anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alien's res system changes in terms of speed as people leave and enter the game.
It wouldn't be that bad if it happened to marine's as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd agree with this, except as pointed out, it won't go anywhere, since we already know we won't get a dynamic res flow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the game starts and there are lots of marine players, it's very expensive. If a number of them start to leave then the marine team is screwed, even if a couple aliens switch over. They'd still be screwed because their armslab cost is dropping slowly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Horrible example. If at any point, in any game, players start to drop from one team then they are screwed no matter what. Being a man or three down WILL put you at a huge disadvantage regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet wasn't this an exact point that you brought against Savant's system? If it's a horrible example against yours, why is it not a horrible example against Savant's?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, if aliens' lose players, they lose someone who had already acumulated a lot of res, unless they went gorge and spent it. In which case, it wouldn't hurt the aliens <b>if the players who leave were the gorges[</b>, yet, if the marines who leave the game have already killed a lot of aliens and destroyed a lot of infastracture, then you can say those marines payed themselves off in res for kills as well as made use of their upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> (emphasis added)I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. I think what you're saying is that it does not hurt the marines if they lose players having paid the higher cost. Unfortunately, you neglect to consider whether the team as a whole suffered while they were unable to purchase their upgrade due to the higher cost. They could be in a considerably worse position that might otherwise be balanced out by having that one more marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Conversely, if the game starts and there are only a few players, then the upgrades are very cheap. Then as more people come into the game, the cost starts to creep up. The thing is, once the upgrade is purchased, it's purchased, and any marine that comes in after that point gets to take advantage of it, regardless of what price it was purchased at. So when you get (as happens on many servers) games that get notably bigger after the first minute or so, you're going to have marines getting upgrades at the same price as normal, if not cheaper.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How often do you see a pub game where teamsizes increase from 6 v 6 to 12 v 12 over a short period of time? Because that's practically the only way you could take advantage of this system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regularly. It seems on the servers I play on, when people note that there's a reasonable size game of NS happening (usually 8v8 or so) it's not very long until we're playing at 11v11 or more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Otherwise, if it's just one player or two who joins... then the cost of universal upgrades go up 1-3 res. Woo. Big save there marines!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right. But at the same time, I fail to see what makes this any better than savant's system. 1 or 2 marines come in, the armor changes very little.. presumably enough to balance the game at that level, having been properly tested by varying sized groups of skilled players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, look at my scale rate. 1 res every 5 seconds. Sound's familar? It should. This is about the same rate at which marine's and alien's receive their res. So really, you may be able to make off with one or two cheap upgrades at the start of the game, but because it will change so fast (and yet slow enough not to be abused) that it's the only 'steal' the marine's will get out of this. Really, it's nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So now you're saying that a change won't matter that much, but somehow a slight change in armor ratios would? Beyond that however, why should marines get any 'steal' whatsoever? You'll note with the armor system proposed, there's really no steal that comes into play, because the changes are reflected through-out the game, not just before the upgrades are purchased.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, this seems very easily abused by marines. They just don't jump in the game right away. After all, the cost has to start somewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If marine's don't jump into the game then both teams will stay very small and people will get bored just sitting in the RR. Another horrible point. And the cost does start somewhere, at 10 res for lv. 1 armor in a 1v1. Meanwhile, with only one alien he will get 16 res per minute on one node. Another steal by the marine's...! oh, wait a minute...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay. I was confused here. I thought you were basing the armory upgrades on the number of marine players in the game, not on the size of both teams. So if there are more skulks in the game than marines, the marines upgrades cost more? I think I must still be missing something, because that doesn't sound right.
I guess what it boils down to is I don't see any argument that you can dismiss for your suggestion that you don't also have to dismiss for Savant's suggestion, and I see at least one argument that you can't dismiss against your suggestion (specifically, once the upgrades are purchased, they're purchased, regardless of how big the game gets) that Savant's suggestion doesn't have a problem with.
Now, skipping the whole starcraft analogy..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If armor values are changed so that aliens can fight large amounts of marines, what happens when a clever comm wants to split up his marines? Will he be able to?
NOPE, because you have super powerful skulks that are designed to work against larger groups of marines. Even the best shots will have trouble killing the noobiest skulk because the skulk takes close to 20 bullets on a 32 player server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is, I think, a reasonable concern against the armor changing system. Being based on the total numbers of the team when map design or strategy constricts how many can be in any one place at any one time could be a problem. However, I'm not sure it invalidates the idea so much as suggests that careful play-testing would be needed by highly-skilled players on servers of varying sizes -- just to see how it all works out.
edit; Hm. This all leads to a thought and a suggestion. Is it in any way possible to adjust attributes like armor/health etc., on a per-map basis? As we all know there are some maps that are alien friendly, and some that are marine friendly. Perhaps a solution is something involving extensive play-testing of each map, and then adjusting armor/damage levels accordingly (in addition to whatever else is put in place for team-size issues)
I still don't see where people see these 'super skulks' coming from. I'm advocating skulks be buffed to 70/30 with NO ability to get carapace off the D chamber. (it would be integrated with hives, providing a slow and steady carapace increase for the second and third hives)
So a 70/30 skulk in the early game would be NO different than a skulk is with carapace NOW. If you joint he game as a skulk and get carapae (and the team has 3 D chambers) then you will have 70/30. So what's the big deal?
For God's sake people... A level 0 LMG will kill a 70/30 hive 1/carapace 3 skulk in only 13 shots! Damage upgrades only make that less. In smaller games they would have less armour.
So, in a 16v16 a skulk in my system would be no different than a skulk with carapace 3 is now. If anything it would be weaker since the carapace wouldn't block as many shots. (only level 1 carapace in the early game)
I can't see how that would make it any harder to kill skulks. This '20 shot' stuff is a load of you know what...
<!--QuoteBegin-$in+Mar 25 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ($in @ Mar 25 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 25 2004, 08:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 25 2004, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My system makes the marine upgrades <b>dyanamic</b>, in order to compensate for a <b>dynamic</b> alien res sytem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just have to say that the alien res system is not dynamic, it is linear which is why it causes so many problems. They get the same amount of res per rt, teamwise, the entire game.
It appears to be dynamic due to the fact that the res is spread out to the players of the team. So when you have more players, you get less res and vise versa.
If the alien res flow was in fact dynamic, the more players you have the more res you get per rt, then bigger games wouldn't be an issue res wise for the alien team.
The point being if one team had dynamic res flow, or both but it would have to be working in the opposite of each other, then the games would be closer to balance as far as the 'res system' is concerned. Just makes sense to have the alien res system change due to the fact of how it is distributed. This (true dynamic alien res) coupled with the dynamic upgrade cost may work well if the costs never got too high for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alien res is dyanmic because the rate at which you get it changes as the teamsize grows and shrinks.
The res flow is linear therefore making the rate at which you get upgrades dynamic. So in essance, while technically it's not dynamic in the sense that the res flow doesn't change per players, it can be called dynamic simply because the rate at which you can upgrade and build changes as the teamsizes grow.
So if you were to make the alien res dynamic, then the alien's build rate and upgrade rate would become linear, and if you were to make the alien res linear you make their upgrade and build rate dyanmic.
And this is what I refer to, alien's having a dynamic build and upgrade rate. I want to make that linear.
So technically, I am incorrect at calling the alien res system dynamic, but for the sake of typing and discussing idea's it is much easier to call it a dynamic res system over dynamic alien upgrade and build rate. I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Meanwhile, marine's build and tech rate is linear because their res system is dynamic, by the definitions you wish to choose.
Basically all I want to do is make it so both systems are either dynamic or linear, and my most favored choice is to make the marine upgrade system dyanmic.
Phew. God damn word meanings and associations <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Savant:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really? Since when can you hit anything with a shottie when it is flying around the room? The shot spread makes the shottie only good for up close and personal encounters. If the fade surprises you then you are dead. Shottie or not. Blink in, kill one marine, blink out to heal. Rinse and repeat until squad is dead. If the second hive is up then the fade is even more deadly since they can get level 3 carapace and use meta to heal.
The problem is that the fade can show up SO SOON in a game that you can't be prepared for it. You also can't just say "let's up the fade cost" since the cost isn't the problem.
You keep saying the game needs to be balanced for large and small games, yet you refuse to acknowledge potential solutions. If the alien team can churn out a fade that cannot be killed by early game marine weapons, then it is a problem. QUOTE<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't tell me it can't be done, because I see and do it all the time. Fades are indeed beatable.
Just realize that fades win the battle of attrition, while marines win in the short run. It's your job as a marine to take advantage of the first battle as that will be your easiest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game was DESIGNED around hive dependance. The move away from hive dependance was done out of necessity, not out of a want to remove that dependancy. Without that need to secure other hives you end up with a simple combat game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there's enough dependancy on the hives as is right now and more would only help to create a more stale game.
Kwil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I beg to differ. Your system only alters the initial purchase price. As I said, once purchased, it's purchased. That's hardly dynamically altering anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only alters the initial purchase price, which is everything. Buying the upgrade is step 1 for marines, waiting is step 2. How is altering half of the process no big deal?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd agree with this, except as pointed out, it won't go anywhere, since we already know we won't get a dynamic res flow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read above. I meant the upgrade rate for alien's and marine's both need to be dynamic, or linear, and right one aliens have a dynamic one and marine's have a linear one. I'm all for making it dynamic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet wasn't this an exact point that you brought against Savant's system? If it's a horrible example against yours, why is it not a horrible example against Savant's?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would work against Savant's because it happens on alien's spawn. Lets say we have this:
- Marine team just kills have of alien team!
- 3 marines go to RR (remember, if 4 leave a team they automatically lose)
- half of alien team spawns in with 10% less hp
- Marines enter game again
In my system, if 3 marines suddenly leave, not only will there be no half a dead alien team for them to make sure their 3 player difference will not cause them to be raped on the battlefield, but also it will take some time for the cost to go down by about 4-6 res before those 3 marines can join in.
In savant's system, you know they are dead and respawning in weaker, and you know that leaving the game will not harm your team in anyway due to the fact that they are mostly dead.
Also, in my system, you don't base it around the event of alien's dying, but instead when the comm has enough res to buy and upgrade. Where the marine's are located will most likely not be convient for them to f4 in most cases.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(emphasis added)I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. I think what you're saying is that it does not hurt the marines if they lose players having paid the higher cost. Unfortunately, you neglect to consider whether the team as a whole suffered while they were unable to purchase their upgrade due to the higher cost. They could be in a considerably worse position that might otherwise be balanced out by having that one more marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You orginally said that if marines dropped in mid game the marines would get a large advantage due to cheaper upgrades.
All I did was point out is that when aliens leave a game, other aliens get a benifit too, in that they are going to get res faster. The only way aliens lose out on this is if the player saved all of their res and never spends it and leaves. Usually if a player knows he has to leave he can just go gorge and drop some stuff before going.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regularly. It seems on the servers I play on, when people note that there's a reasonable size game of NS happening (usually 8v8 or so) it's not very long until we're playing at 11v11 or more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that I thought about it, as teamsizes increase, marine upgrades will cost more, but aliens will get res slower so their upgrades will effectively cost more, in terms of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So now you're saying that a change won't matter that much, but somehow a slight change in armor ratios would? Beyond that however, why should marines get any 'steal' whatsoever? You'll note with the armor system proposed, there's really no steal that comes into play, because the changes are reflected through-out the game, not just before the upgrades are purchased.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slight changes in armor usally make a huge difference when we are talking skulk versus marine numbers.
Do you realize that a skulk with 10 more armor takes 2 more bullets, and that statitically skulks would totally dominate marines in terms of kills? Just because of a mere 2 bullets? It may seem wild but I assure you I know from plenty of experience that this happens to be the case. Actually, it is wild on how much a bullet can skew the game. I'm surprised whenever I think about it.
So if Savant's armor system makes it so a skulk takes one more or one less bullet because 2 people join/leave, then already it's too much for me.
Next, about the 'steal' comment... I thought about this more and it turns out marine's won't get a 'steal' out of this. While their upgrades will be cheaper, aliens will have a smaller team as well (remember, one team cannot be more than 2 players than the other (unless your server is run by crappy admins who change that feature)) so you would have smaller amounts of aliens who will be getting res quite quickly due to a smaller teamsize.
Both aliens and marines will get a few free 'steals' as the teamsizes increase in my system. Again, evidence of a working dynamic upgrade system.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay. I was confused here. I thought you were basing the armory upgrades on the number of marine players in the game, not on the size of both teams. So if there are more skulks in the game than marines, the marines upgrades cost more? I think I must still be missing something, because that doesn't sound right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the fact you seem to be forgetting, and that is how both teams will always be a relatively equal teamsize if both teams start from 0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->edit; Hm. This all leads to a thought and a suggestion. Is it in any way possible to adjust attributes like armor/health etc., on a per-map basis? As we all know there are some maps that are alien friendly, and some that are marine friendly. Perhaps a solution is something involving extensive play-testing of each map, and then adjusting armor/damage levels accordingly (in addition to whatever else is put in place for team-size issues)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not such a bad idea, but this would seriously be a major hindrence to nubs.
"OMG I WAS jUST 70/20 LAST MAP NOW I'M 70/10!! THIS GAME SUX"
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It would work against Savant's because it happens on alien's spawn. Lets say we have this:
- Marine team just kills have of alien team!
- 3 marines go to RR (remember, if 4 leave a team they automatically lose)
- half of alien team spawns in with 10% less hp
- Marines enter game again
In my system, if 3 marines suddenly leave, not only will there be no half a dead alien team for them to make sure their 3 player difference will not cause them to be raped on the battlefield, but also it will take some time for the cost to go down by about 4-6 res before those 3 marines can join in.
In savant's system, you know they are dead and respawning in weaker, and you know that leaving the game will not harm your team in anyway due to the fact that they are mostly dead.
Also, in my system, you don't base it around the event of alien's dying, but instead when the comm has enough res to buy and upgrade. Where the marine's are located will most likely not be convient for them to f4 in most cases. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn @ last page+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ last page)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, that's the difference though...
Savant's idea is easily abusable, mine is not.
If a guy f4's then he loses all of his equipment, his position, and has to respawn in again, major issues for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are your systems different? You said earlier that if a marine wants to abuse your system, they would have to lose position, equipment, and need to respawn again. Now you complain that Savant's system can be abused in the same way. In the scenario that you described, the marines were obviously in a dominant position (half alien team down, no marine losses, roughly halfway to hive). They would have to have half THEIR OWN team F4 (losing position, perhaps equipment, and requiring respawn).
As well, remember that not all the aliens respawn at the same time, the marines will need their men in the RR as long as the aliens are dead (at min). To optimally exploit Savant's system, the marines will need to stay in RR a split second longer than then each the skulks spawning (skulk spawns, marine joins, skulk spawn, marine join, etc), giving armor of 10% less, 6.66% less, and 3.33% less. That or have all three marines wait the whole 3*12(?) seconds for the skulks to all respawn. Under Savant's system, you will have to destroy your advantage in numbers, for a small exploit in armor. 3.33% health is less than a bullet.
Wrong monkey, first off, you don't have half of the marine team leave, else marines will forfiet.
You have 3 marines do it, one's with LA and aren't anywhere particularly important.
Next they would have to wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 min while the aliens spawn in.
Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game.
In my situtation, 3 marine's going to the RR to maximize effienciency for upgrades would never be a smart thing to do, simply because when your team is getting upgrades aliens are still alive and if they see 3 marines leave from any given area then of course they will immediately take advantage of it and your team will pay.
Therefore leaving with my upgrade system would not give any advantages.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien res is dyanmic because the rate at which you get it changes as the teamsize grows and shrinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is just plainly wrong. "You" <i>seem</i> to get res faster but the reality is that the <i>alien team</i> continues to get res at the same rate. You cannot compare the rate at which an individual alien get res to the rate that the commander get res.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 09:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 09:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong monkey, first off, you don't have half of the marine team leave, else marines will forfiet.
You have 3 marines do it, one's with LA and aren't anywhere particularly important.
Next they would have to wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 min while the aliens spawn in.
Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game.
In my situtation, 3 marine's going to the RR to maximize effienciency for upgrades would never be a smart thing to do, simply because when your team is getting upgrades aliens are still alive and if they see 3 marines leave from any given area then of course they will immediately take advantage of it and your team will pay.
Therefore leaving with my upgrade system would not give any advantages. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought we were talking about a 6v6 game, thus 3 players = 1/2 team. Anywho, thats besides the point.
In your situation, what if the marines take down half the alien team, THEN have 3 (LA/LMG) marines F4? Comm gets upgrades for cheaper cost and F4'ers wait to respawn. "Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in [not] weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game."
cheaper cost or negligibly weaker skulks. Thats the difference.
How about changing the alien res system to something like the following:
Regardless of how many players are on the alien team, as soon as the alien res pool has 6 res every alien on the team gets 1 resource point.
So on a 6v6 game, nothing changes.
on a 15 vs 15 game, aliens would receive resources as if they were playing a 6 v 6 game. (Meaning aliens get more resources).
Problems:
- On extremely small games (eg. 1v1) alien(s) get res slower because they need 6 res in their res pool to give everyone 1 resource point
- On extremely large games (eg. 15v15) aliens get res quicker because instead of needing 15 resources in their pool to give each alien 1 res, they only need 6 resources in their pool to give everyone 1 resource point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 26 2004, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 26 2004, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 09:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 09:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong monkey, first off, you don't have half of the marine team leave, else marines will forfiet.
You have 3 marines do it, one's with LA and aren't anywhere particularly important.
Next they would have to wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 min while the aliens spawn in.
Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game.
In my situtation, 3 marine's going to the RR to maximize effienciency for upgrades would never be a smart thing to do, simply because when your team is getting upgrades aliens are still alive and if they see 3 marines leave from any given area then of course they will immediately take advantage of it and your team will pay.
Therefore leaving with my upgrade system would not give any advantages. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought we were talking about a 6v6 game, thus 3 players = 1/2 team. Anywho, thats besides the point.
In your situation, what if the marines take down half the alien team, THEN have 3 (LA/LMG) marines F4? Comm gets upgrades for cheaper cost and F4'ers wait to respawn. "Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in [not] weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game."
cheaper cost or negligibly weaker skulks. Thats the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First you kill half of the alien team, and then you upgrade?
Doing that will put you at a serious disadvantage during any point of the game. You will want to get upgrades ASAP, as all upgrades take time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 26 2004, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 26 2004, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You take one (armor), kill half the team, then do the rest of the things listed. Weapon upgrade will be cheaper. Same problem.
Dont try to side-step outta it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not the same.
Waiting to kill off half the alien team before getting your upgrades just to take advantage of the cheaper cost is <b>not</b> effective at all. Upgrades take two things: Money, and <b>Time</b>. Since you don't know when you are gonna kill off the majority of the aliens at once, if ever, waitint to get upgrades once every time you kill off half their team is ludacris. I can tell you right now that if marines do not get a constant stream of upgrades they are either:
a.) Losing
b.) Have already lost
Meanwhile, since Savant's system changes when they spawn in, you can abuse it by simply leaving once you kill them all, rejoining once they spawn in, and then aliens are gonna be weaker (and therefore easier to kill and wipe them out again) and upon this 3 more players off the marine team can leave to make sure they keep spawning in weaker.
- get armor upgrade (normal cost) - kill half a team while the armslab is doing the deed - armor upgrade finishes (IIRC, it doesnt take that long, not for the first set anyway) - F4/upgrade at cheaper cost/continue to pressure
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Meanwhile, since Savant's system changes when they spawn in, you can abuse it by simply leaving once you kill them all, rejoining once they spawn in, and then aliens are gonna be weaker (and therefore easier to kill and wipe them out again) and upon this 3 more players off the marine team can leave to make sure they keep spawning in weaker.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can tell you're getting desperate since your objections are really groundless.
I can easily provide methods to cover any possible scenerio you provide.
Marines leave? Make the calculation based on the team members on both teams and divide by two. So if 3 marines leave it would only impact a value of half that. We could also implement a rule that averages the number of players over the last 5 minutes. So any players that leave would have to wait in the lobby for 5 minutes to affect the alien armour level. Your pessimistic attitude doesn't help ANYONE Forlorn. You keep making up these wild generalizations that make no sense at all.
You also seem to have a very narrow view of what you want the game to be, and narrow views are not what NS needs right now. Open your mind to new ideas instead of rejecting any suggestion that doesn't mirror your point of view.
It gets tired when every post you make is negative.
I think a better approach to 12v12 would be to increase the number of higher level lifeforms in the beginning.
Right now, in standard pub games, you get maybe two-3 fades at the beginning. sometimes you get none because people don't know how to play fade. 2-3 is good, but if one should die, they won't have the res to refade. Whereas in 6v6, its 2 fades for 5 marines, and usually each fade can re-fade. I think a better approach would be to scale resflow for the size of the alien team. ie, at 8 players have increased resflow of 10%, 10 players, 20%, 12 players, 30%. This way the alien team can have a stable amount of higher level lifeforms, and we can keep it to 3-4 gorges per 12 people.
Right now, to win in 12v12 vs aliens, you need to have a better team outright. One reason is becuase good marines with great aim, can easily win the game in 5 minutes. What happens is that it takes 5minutes to get a fade and to get a hive in 12v12 at least, unless someone gets huge RFK. If the marines are good, they just get most aliens into a spawn queue, where like half the team is dead and it takes 2 minutes to spawn. All they have to do is spawn camp. At 1 hive, this is easily doable thats why a second hive is so much more important in 12v12 then 6v6. In 6v6, the aliens can be down to 1 res node and 1 hive, but as long as the fades live, they're not out. In 12v12, even if you have 2 fades, if you don't have the ability to get a second hive, you have no chance at winning. The best approach would be to scale spawning so that 12v12 is more balanced in this regard, ie, the hive speeds up spawning dynamically sort of the same way combat is sped up.
I think the idea isn't to balance pub play at different levels, but to attempt to fix some glaring errors, because pub play is important. If we had some sort of dynamic fixes to res flow and early game spawn time in 12v12, you'd have a lot more even games, and pub play would be similar to scrim play, which is a lot more fun imho.
Slightly OT, but this talk of armour and skulks got me thinking.
I remember in 1.04, once dcs were made, skulks would almost always go into battle with carapace. It allowed skulks to have a pretty even fight againt level 1-2 upgraded rines - but made them pay for it just like the commander has to.
Since 2.0, hive1 upgraded skulks arent worth the evolution time or cost (except maybe celerity and focus, but its so rare i cant say), and players simply slug it out with no upgrades to save for fade.
The period between hive1 skulks and hive1 fades (usually the first 5 minutes of the game) can be very flustrating for aliens, and id like to see them have a few more options to play with. Making skulks with hive1 upgrades more effective vs level 0 - level 2 lmg rines (as i remember was the case in 1.04) is one way of doing this.
Id also like to see lerks with or without a hive1 upgrade to be more worthwhile during the same period (currently the 30 res is too risky, since a single level 0 lmg/pistol marine can quite easily kill them - nevermind a group of upgraded ones).
For example, prehaps give carapaced Skulks and Lerks more armour and regen Skulks and Lerks faster regeneration.
I feel that Fade and Onos are balanced as far as health and armour go. The main problem with fade is that its too easy to escape and get back to full health(effectively making a careful and patient player invincible).
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 26 2004, 06:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 26 2004, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Meanwhile, since Savant's system changes when they spawn in, you can abuse it by simply leaving once you kill them all, rejoining once they spawn in, and then aliens are gonna be weaker (and therefore easier to kill and wipe them out again) and upon this 3 more players off the marine team can leave to make sure they keep spawning in weaker.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can tell you're getting desperate since your objections are really groundless.
I can easily provide methods to cover any possible scenerio you provide.
Marines leave? Make the calculation based on the team members on both teams and divide by two. So if 3 marines leave it would only impact a value of half that. We could also implement a rule that averages the number of players over the last 5 minutes. So any players that leave would have to wait in the lobby for 5 minutes to affect the alien armour level. Your pessimistic attitude doesn't help ANYONE Forlorn. You keep making up these wild generalizations that make no sense at all.
You also seem to have a very narrow view of what you want the game to be, and narrow views are not what NS needs right now. Open your mind to new ideas instead of rejecting any suggestion that doesn't mirror your point of view.
It gets tired when every post you make is negative.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually if you had read everything this is just one objection of many that you just adressed
Still on the list:
- What happens when the comm splits up marines in large games? They have to fight super skulks, as opposed to smaller games being by yourself means they fight normal skulks (70/10)
- Why should the fade/onos be any weaker in smaller games, you seem to think they are impossible to kill in a small game but I know from tons of experience this is false.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What happens when the comm splits up marines in large games? They have to fight super skulks, as opposed to smaller games being by yourself means they fight normal skulks (70/10)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, where do you come up with this 'super skulk' stuff? It's hogwash, all of it.
In the game, <b>AS IT STANDS NOW</b>, most alien teams get defense chambers first.
In the game, <b>AS IT STANDS NOW</b>, a hive 1 skulk can get the carapace level 3 upgrade and become a 70/30 skulk with 60% armour absorbsion.
Under my proposal, the only time you would see a 70/30 skulk would be in a 16vs16 game, and that 70/30 skulk would NOT get the benefit of carapace level 3 since I would tie that to hives. So they would only have level 1 carapace, or a 40% armour absorbsion.
So in reality, the BEST one hive skulk in my system would still be slightly weaker than the best skulk in the game RIGHT NOW.
Please stop making up these lame knee-jerk excuses to problems that don't exist. No offense, but it really makes you look foolish. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Why should the fade/onos be any weaker in smaller games, you seem to think they are impossible to kill in a small game but I know from tons of experience this is false. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->In most small games the fade/onos are unnecessarily difficult to kill by a squad of marines. Too much firepower is needed, and it often exceeds the available firepower of the marine team.
Now this is not to say that I think EVERY fade/onos is too ard to kill. Skill does play a factor, but only the novice fade/onos (who doesn't understand hit and run) will die to a team of marines.
In the early game (when a small shift in the balance of power can make a huge difference in game balance) it is crucial that marines not get pummelled into oblivion by a single fade while the rest of the alien team locks down the map.
This falls into the category of public play concerns, and is a legitimate concern given the gameplay on public servers.
You can disagree with the solution if you like, but you can't ignore the problem without becoming a hypocrite. (since it is YOU who has loudly proclaimed that the aliens win more games - if so, why do you now resist changes to address that?)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, where do you come up with this 'super skulk' stuff? It's hogwash, all of it.
In the game, AS IT STANDS NOW, most alien teams get defense chambers first.
In the game, AS IT STANDS NOW, a hive 1 skulk can get the carapace level 3 upgrade and become a 70/30 skulk with 60% armour absorbsion.
Under my proposal, the only time you would see a 70/30 skulk would be in a 16vs16 game, and that 70/30 skulk would NOT get the benefit of carapace level 3 since I would tie that to hives. So they would only have level 1 carapace, or a 40% armour absorbsion.
So in reality, the BEST one hive skulk in my system would still be slightly weaker than the best skulk in the game RIGHT NOW. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this doesn't make sense, because most alien teams do not get 3 defense chambers right away into the game.
A skulk taking 13 bullets is far too much at the start of the game, a dominant strategy of skulk rushes would form and would obliterate the marines...
Sure, you could just tweak the numbers, but I honestly can't see this as a solution to anything.
Aliens cannot be "tougher" in certain situations (such as larger games) to make up for their weaknesses.
Even in larger games, I don't mind how marine firepower grows out of control, but what really bothers me is that it takes so long to get res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most small games the fade/onos are unnecessarily difficult to kill by a squad of marines. Too much firepower is needed, and it often exceeds the available firepower of the marine team.
Now this is not to say that I think EVERY fade/onos is too ard to kill. Skill does play a factor, but only the novice fade/onos (who doesn't understand hit and run) will die to a team of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill is pretty much the only factor. That's why I think fades are fine.
Have you considered in order to slow down the early game fades, you could lower alien starting res to 20 and make gorges cost 5?
This would delay the cost of fades by 5 res, which averages out to 30 seconds over all game sizes.
This is a very nice and elegant solution, because you don't actually touch the combat aspects (which is why fades vs. shotguns is so much fun), and marines will have a bit more time to get some power on the field in anticapation of the fades. Best of all, since the cost of the fades aren't touched, the time to refade is not touched.
OR you could make gorging free (thumbs up for this) and make all aliens start with 15 res, and also make the marine upgrades slightly more expensive.
But i think that making gorges 5 res is a very good change, and that they should have a little more armour too. Skulking should be totally free, and upgrades for the skulk should be one res, not two, to encourage skulks to get upgrades. Maybe this would solve so balance issues? Fades come in a little later in the game, and the skulks stand a better chance to keep up with the marine teching. Sounds good to me, since i think that the clangames are a little too focused around the mid-game as it is (midgame is like 70% of the entire game <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Hey Savant, why not cool down your flame-thrower for a min?
Every post you make seems to say "OMG COUNTER TO MY POENT SUCH NEGATAVIETY BS FORLRON FOGHAT" with a pretty face thrown onto it.
I don't know about you, but I find fades and onos simple to kill with proper stratigy.
One or two bullets can make a HUGE difference. Ever come out on top of a conflict with 10-20 hp as a skulk? Guess what? You've been saved by your ability to take one or two more bullets. It happens quite often.
It seems to me, from reading you posts, you want NS to turn into a game where it doesn't matter what class or guns the player currently is/has, you just want each to be as powerfull as the next or the last, with a "different atmospheric experience" thrown in.
On this current "issue," some seem to fail to see the abusability. You can abuse the armor changing for the following reasons- :: You can choose to f4 after killing a large portion of the alien team, which is bound to happen at one point in most games. :: You're going to confuse many people who don't understand the system fully, and that's just going to be a major turn off towards this mod. :: The numbers would make it so that in order for one to balance the game, one would have to balence every team size possible.
You can't abuse Forlorn's upgrade system for the following reasons:
:: You can't "Choose" when to kill off half the alien team. Getting upgrades at a constant rate is far more important than holding off until you kill off half a team so you can save 2-6 res. :: Should you choose to f4 afterwards and wait for the full value of the price to decrease, you've just wasted... well, you're wasting time which could've been spend upgrading/gaining the upperhand to save about 1-2 meds in res. Congrats, you beat the system. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> :: These numbers make sense, even to novice players because anyone can understand "More rines = more expensive upgrades" but not many people are going to understand why they were a 70/30 skulk and all of a sudden a 70/24 skulk their next life because a player or 2 lagged out on the rine team.
Forlorn's system is ready to adapt to any changes in the game, whereas yours is static, and only changes due to "certain events" making it abuseable.
It's good to see so many people thinking for the community, but some ideas just don't hold ground when push comes to shove.
Personal opinion.. any argument that says "Players will be confused" with regard to numbers is a non-argument for me. They all fall into the "adapt or die" clause, so far as I'm concerned. The numbers are there for our convenience only, after all.. we could have had damage represented by something like the screen turning red and becoming increasingly "tunnel-visioned" rather than numbers.. (which sounds just plain cool to me, but that's a side thought)
Your health last map was 70/30, this map it's 70/15.. deal with it. It's been balanced (hopefully) and those are the numbers that worked the best. If you need a "realism" reason.. the Hive doesn't waste resources on creating creatures tougher than it needs to -- so now you know that you have exactly what you need to take out these marines.
Marines don't know exactly how many bullets it'll take to down any given skulk? This is a *good* thing, it adds to the fear and tension. Besides, it makes creating first class aim-bots that little bit harder.
See, the thing is, this is to put the fun back into the game. Fun for me doesn't come from knowing the numbers. Fun doesn't come from calculating.. "Okay.. I know I landed two pistol shots into him.. I've got 4 more left in my clip.. do I reload or try for two knife slashes" fun comes from having a reasonable chance, regardless of the game size. Fun comes from not being stuck in the spawn queue by spawn campers or siegeblasts. Fun comes from *not* getting lost and being able to help out my team.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I made the analogy to to starcraft, between Zerglings and Marines. I also pointed out that the marines would lose in Starcraft, even with large numbers, providing the map was open enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yet another Starcraft comparison... <sih> We're not playing Starcraft, we're playing NS. You cant compare the two in this manner since there are a number of key differences that make any meaningful comparison inaccurate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I did not understand that<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->In other words, you didn;'t read the post. I made it quite clear.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->because it would not make anymore sense to me to nerf the fade/onos. Making them any weaker would make them cannon fodder, esp. on smaller games versus HMG's. I thought it was a mistake or whatever but now that you say those are indeed how the numbers work, I must say the idea sounds worse than ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree.
I can't see how a lower armor fade would be cannon fodder in smaller games. Right now fades are invincinble in small games unless you get a pile of HA/HMG to take them on. The problem is that fades will show up FAR earlier than what is possible to research or afford such firepower.
As I said though (which you probably missed since you keep missing my point) is that this would be in conjunction with pulling carapace off the D chamber and putting it on the hives. So that 'weak' hive one fade would get stronger once hives two and three dropped. It's intuitive and gives marines a chance to hold off an early game higher evolution without nerfing across the board.
It's too bad that some people only criticize the suggestions of others without offering anything constructive. I find everything you reply with is unnecessarily negative and critical, and it doesn't help us find solutions to these problems. I often wonder if you revel in the chaos of making unfounded accusations just to start arguments.
People need to be less critical about others and instead offer their own tangible suggestions. Posts in this forum are meant to draw constructive comments, and if people don't like an idea they should post their OWN idea instead of just rambling off on why they don't like it.
Try being part of the solution instead of part of the problem. It would be a hundred times more helpful.
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there are two solutions here:
1. Bring the marine upgrade system into alignment with the alien upgrade system.
2. Bring the alien upgrade system into alignment with the marine upgrade system.
To accomplish #1, add a variable upkeep cost to the armory, depending on marine team size.
To accomplish #2, remove the cost of alien upgrades (while possibly making the chambers more expensive to place).
I think #2 is more intuitive, and requires new players to remember one less arbitrary number. But #1 would probably work just as well.
This does not follow logically as fades have a finite amount of health and armor and will expire upon receiving lethal damage - regardless of weapon type.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. Still, I don't think that changing armor values depending on player sizes is key.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet another Starcraft comparison... <sih> We're not playing Starcraft, we're playing NS. You cant compare the two in this manner since there are a number of key differences that make any meaningful comparison inaccurate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice I did not say my analogies were 100% on the ball, rather that I said they were analogies and the starcraft example was merely to get across my point of how marine firepower stacks in both NS and SC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see how a lower armor fade would be cannon fodder in smaller games. Right now fades are invincinble in small games unless you get a pile of HA/HMG to take them on. The problem is that fades will show up FAR earlier than what is possible to research or afford such firepower.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are quite combatable with lv. 1 armor and lv. 2 shotguns.
Your oppinion is not valid at all in my eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I said though (which you probably missed since you keep missing my point) is that this would be in conjunction with pulling carapace off the D chamber and putting it on the hives. So that 'weak' hive one fade would get stronger once hives two and three dropped. It's intuitive and gives marines a chance to hold off an early game higher evolution without nerfing across the board.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting up a second hive can be quite difficult to do in competetive and pub games alike, and putting more dependance on hives isn't a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's too bad that some people only criticize the suggestions of others without offering anything constructive. I find everything you reply with is unnecessarily negative and critical, and it doesn't help us find solutions to these problems. I often wonder if you revel in the chaos of making unfounded accusations just to start arguments.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do offer plenty of suggestions, for example the universal upgrade solutions, as well as making map specific for teamsizes.
Also I'm not that negative, please stop associating tone with my text. If you actually hear me speak all of this, you'd find me pretty friendly.
I dont see how thats related.
Also, there's nothing wrong with just providing criticism. Are you saying that others can't critique you if they don't have their own ideas? Despite what you think, the criticism I've seen here is pretty constructive.
Just have to say that the alien res system is not dynamic, it is linear which is why it causes so many problems. They get the same amount of res per rt, teamwise, the entire game.
It appears to be dynamic due to the fact that the res is spread out to the players of the team. So when you have more players, you get less res and vise versa.
If the alien res flow was in fact dynamic, the more players you have the more res you get per rt, then bigger games wouldn't be an issue res wise for the alien team.
The point being if one team had dynamic res flow, or both but it would have to be working in the opposite of each other, then the games would be closer to balance as far as the 'res system' is concerned. Just makes sense to have the alien res system change due to the fact of how it is distributed. This (true dynamic alien res) coupled with the dynamic upgrade cost may work well if the costs never got too high for marines.
The problem is that the fade can show up SO SOON in a game that you can't be prepared for it. You also can't just say "let's up the fade cost" since the cost isn't the problem.
You keep saying the game needs to be balanced for large and small games, yet you refuse to acknowledge potential solutions. If the alien team can churn out a fade that cannot be killed by early game marine weapons, then it is a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Getting up a second hive can be quite difficult to do in competetive and pub games alike, and putting more dependance on hives isn't a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The game was DESIGNED around hive dependance. The move away from hive dependance was done out of necessity, not out of a want to remove that dependancy. Without that need to secure other hives you end up with a simple combat game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also I'm not that negative, please stop associating tone with my text. If you actually hear me speak all of this, you'd find me pretty friendly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->As the saying goes, it's not what you say it's how you say it. The majority of your posts tend to be scathing criticizms of the suggestions made by others. I'm not singlingyou out here, but I just find that you tend to be intolerant of those that don't share your opinion of what the game should be like.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, there's nothing wrong with just providing criticism. Are you saying that others can't critique you if they don't have their own ideas? Despite what you think, the criticism I've seen here is pretty constructive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm all for constructive criticizm, but within a certain context. My issue is that too many people seek to only see the BAD in a given suggestion and not the GOOD in it. Instead of peole being so negative, why can't people be more positive in their criticizms? Instead of condemning ideas, why not offer a different point of view?
Criticizm on its own serves no purpose. I could tell you before i posted my original message that some people wouldn't like it. No one had to post and tell me that. There are loads of different people with different ideas. I don't expect everyone to agree.
However, this isn't a debate forum, it's a forum to further advance the GAME. If people have personal ideas and opinions, that's fine in the general forum, but in this forum the game should come FIRST. So instead of scathing criticizm, perhaps more people could look on the positive side of things.
Instead of what is wrong with an idea, what is right with it? (IE look for the good in the suggestion even if only a small portion is agreeable) Suggest alternatives that run in the same vein.
No one says everyone has to agree, but just posting to say you don't like an idea without contributing anything else is a waste of all of our time.
Regards,
Savant
I beg to differ. Your system only alters the initial purchase price. As I said, once purchased, it's purchased. That's hardly dynamically altering anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Alien's res system changes in terms of speed as people leave and enter the game.
It wouldn't be that bad if it happened to marine's as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree with this, except as pointed out, it won't go anywhere, since we already know we won't get a dynamic res flow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the game starts and there are lots of marine players, it's very expensive. If a number of them start to leave then the marine team is screwed, even if a couple aliens switch over. They'd still be screwed because their armslab cost is dropping slowly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Horrible example. If at any point, in any game, players start to drop from one team then they are screwed no matter what. Being a man or three down WILL put you at a huge disadvantage regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet wasn't this an exact point that you brought against Savant's system? If it's a horrible example against yours, why is it not a horrible example against Savant's?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, if aliens' lose players, they lose someone who had already acumulated a lot of res, unless they went gorge and spent it. In which case, it wouldn't hurt the aliens <b>if the players who leave were the gorges[</b>, yet, if the marines who leave the game have already killed a lot of aliens and destroyed a lot of infastracture, then you can say those marines payed themselves off in res for kills as well as made use of their upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(emphasis added)I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. I think what you're saying is that it does not hurt the marines if they lose players having paid the higher cost. Unfortunately, you neglect to consider whether the team as a whole suffered while they were unable to purchase their upgrade due to the higher cost. They could be in a considerably worse position that might otherwise be balanced out by having that one more marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Conversely, if the game starts and there are only a few players, then the upgrades are very cheap. Then as more people come into the game, the cost starts to creep up. The thing is, once the upgrade is purchased, it's purchased, and any marine that comes in after that point gets to take advantage of it, regardless of what price it was purchased at. So when you get (as happens on many servers) games that get notably bigger after the first minute or so, you're going to have marines getting upgrades at the same price as normal, if not cheaper.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How often do you see a pub game where teamsizes increase from 6 v 6 to 12 v 12 over a short period of time? Because that's practically the only way you could take advantage of this system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regularly. It seems on the servers I play on, when people note that there's a reasonable size game of NS happening (usually 8v8 or so) it's not very long until we're playing at 11v11 or more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Otherwise, if it's just one player or two who joins... then the cost of universal upgrades go up 1-3 res. Woo. Big save there marines!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right. But at the same time, I fail to see what makes this any better than savant's system. 1 or 2 marines come in, the armor changes very little.. presumably enough to balance the game at that level, having been properly tested by varying sized groups of skilled players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, look at my scale rate. 1 res every 5 seconds. Sound's familar? It should. This is about the same rate at which marine's and alien's receive their res. So really, you may be able to make off with one or two cheap upgrades at the start of the game, but because it will change so fast (and yet slow enough not to be abused) that it's the only 'steal' the marine's will get out of this. Really, it's nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now you're saying that a change won't matter that much, but somehow a slight change in armor ratios would? Beyond that however, why should marines get any 'steal' whatsoever? You'll note with the armor system proposed, there's really no steal that comes into play, because the changes are reflected through-out the game, not just before the upgrades are purchased.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, this seems very easily abused by marines. They just don't jump in the game right away. After all, the cost has to start somewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marine's don't jump into the game then both teams will stay very small and people will get bored just sitting in the RR. Another horrible point. And the cost does start somewhere, at 10 res for lv. 1 armor in a 1v1. Meanwhile, with only one alien he will get 16 res per minute on one node. Another steal by the marine's...! oh, wait a minute...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay. I was confused here. I thought you were basing the armory upgrades on the number of marine players in the game, not on the size of both teams. So if there are more skulks in the game than marines, the marines upgrades cost more? I think I must still be missing something, because that doesn't sound right.
I guess what it boils down to is I don't see any argument that you can dismiss for your suggestion that you don't also have to dismiss for Savant's suggestion, and I see at least one argument that you can't dismiss against your suggestion (specifically, once the upgrades are purchased, they're purchased, regardless of how big the game gets) that Savant's suggestion doesn't have a problem with.
Now, skipping the whole starcraft analogy..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If armor values are changed so that aliens can fight large amounts of marines, what happens when a clever comm wants to split up his marines? Will he be able to?
NOPE, because you have super powerful skulks that are designed to work against larger groups of marines. Even the best shots will have trouble killing the noobiest skulk because the skulk takes close to 20 bullets on a 32 player server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is, I think, a reasonable concern against the armor changing system. Being based on the total numbers of the team when map design or strategy constricts how many can be in any one place at any one time could be a problem. However, I'm not sure it invalidates the idea so much as suggests that careful play-testing would be needed by highly-skilled players on servers of varying sizes -- just to see how it all works out.
edit; Hm. This all leads to a thought and a suggestion. Is it in any way possible to adjust attributes like armor/health etc., on a per-map basis? As we all know there are some maps that are alien friendly, and some that are marine friendly. Perhaps a solution is something involving extensive play-testing of each map, and then adjusting armor/damage levels accordingly (in addition to whatever else is put in place for team-size issues)
So a 70/30 skulk in the early game would be NO different than a skulk is with carapace NOW. If you joint he game as a skulk and get carapae (and the team has 3 D chambers) then you will have 70/30. So what's the big deal?
For God's sake people... A level 0 LMG will kill a 70/30 hive 1/carapace 3 skulk in only 13 shots! Damage upgrades only make that less. In smaller games they would have less armour.
So, in a 16v16 a skulk in my system would be no different than a skulk with carapace 3 is now. If anything it would be weaker since the carapace wouldn't block as many shots. (only level 1 carapace in the early game)
I can't see how that would make it any harder to kill skulks. This '20 shot' stuff is a load of you know what...
Regards,
Savant
Just have to say that the alien res system is not dynamic, it is linear which is why it causes so many problems. They get the same amount of res per rt, teamwise, the entire game.
It appears to be dynamic due to the fact that the res is spread out to the players of the team. So when you have more players, you get less res and vise versa.
If the alien res flow was in fact dynamic, the more players you have the more res you get per rt, then bigger games wouldn't be an issue res wise for the alien team.
The point being if one team had dynamic res flow, or both but it would have to be working in the opposite of each other, then the games would be closer to balance as far as the 'res system' is concerned. Just makes sense to have the alien res system change due to the fact of how it is distributed. This (true dynamic alien res) coupled with the dynamic upgrade cost may work well if the costs never got too high for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien res is dyanmic because the rate at which you get it changes as the teamsize grows and shrinks.
The res flow is linear therefore making the rate at which you get upgrades dynamic. So in essance, while technically it's not dynamic in the sense that the res flow doesn't change per players, it can be called dynamic simply because the rate at which you can upgrade and build changes as the teamsizes grow.
So if you were to make the alien res dynamic, then the alien's build rate and upgrade rate would become linear, and if you were to make the alien res linear you make their upgrade and build rate dyanmic.
And this is what I refer to, alien's having a dynamic build and upgrade rate. I want to make that linear.
So technically, I am incorrect at calling the alien res system dynamic, but for the sake of typing and discussing idea's it is much easier to call it a dynamic res system over dynamic alien upgrade and build rate. I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Meanwhile, marine's build and tech rate is linear because their res system is dynamic, by the definitions you wish to choose.
Basically all I want to do is make it so both systems are either dynamic or linear, and my most favored choice is to make the marine upgrade system dyanmic.
Phew. God damn word meanings and associations <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Savant:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really? Since when can you hit anything with a shottie when it is flying around the room? The shot spread makes the shottie only good for up close and personal encounters. If the fade surprises you then you are dead. Shottie or not. Blink in, kill one marine, blink out to heal. Rinse and repeat until squad is dead. If the second hive is up then the fade is even more deadly since they can get level 3 carapace and use meta to heal.
The problem is that the fade can show up SO SOON in a game that you can't be prepared for it. You also can't just say "let's up the fade cost" since the cost isn't the problem.
You keep saying the game needs to be balanced for large and small games, yet you refuse to acknowledge potential solutions. If the alien team can churn out a fade that cannot be killed by early game marine weapons, then it is a problem.
QUOTE<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't tell me it can't be done, because I see and do it all the time. Fades are indeed beatable.
Just realize that fades win the battle of attrition, while marines win in the short run. It's your job as a marine to take advantage of the first battle as that will be your easiest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game was DESIGNED around hive dependance. The move away from hive dependance was done out of necessity, not out of a want to remove that dependancy. Without that need to secure other hives you end up with a simple combat game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there's enough dependancy on the hives as is right now and more would only help to create a more stale game.
Kwil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I beg to differ. Your system only alters the initial purchase price. As I said, once purchased, it's purchased. That's hardly dynamically altering anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only alters the initial purchase price, which is everything. Buying the upgrade is step 1 for marines, waiting is step 2. How is altering half of the process no big deal?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd agree with this, except as pointed out, it won't go anywhere, since we already know we won't get a dynamic res flow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read above. I meant the upgrade rate for alien's and marine's both need to be dynamic, or linear, and right one aliens have a dynamic one and marine's have a linear one. I'm all for making it dynamic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet wasn't this an exact point that you brought against Savant's system? If it's a horrible example against yours, why is it not a horrible example against Savant's?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would work against Savant's because it happens on alien's spawn. Lets say we have this:
- Marine team just kills have of alien team!
- 3 marines go to RR (remember, if 4 leave a team they automatically lose)
- half of alien team spawns in with 10% less hp
- Marines enter game again
In my system, if 3 marines suddenly leave, not only will there be no half a dead alien team for them to make sure their 3 player difference will not cause them to be raped on the battlefield, but also it will take some time for the cost to go down by about 4-6 res before those 3 marines can join in.
In savant's system, you know they are dead and respawning in weaker, and you know that leaving the game will not harm your team in anyway due to the fact that they are mostly dead.
Also, in my system, you don't base it around the event of alien's dying, but instead when the comm has enough res to buy and upgrade. Where the marine's are located will most likely not be convient for them to f4 in most cases.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(emphasis added)I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. I think what you're saying is that it does not hurt the marines if they lose players having paid the higher cost. Unfortunately, you neglect to consider whether the team as a whole suffered while they were unable to purchase their upgrade due to the higher cost. They could be in a considerably worse position that might otherwise be balanced out by having that one more marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You orginally said that if marines dropped in mid game the marines would get a large advantage due to cheaper upgrades.
All I did was point out is that when aliens leave a game, other aliens get a benifit too, in that they are going to get res faster. The only way aliens lose out on this is if the player saved all of their res and never spends it and leaves. Usually if a player knows he has to leave he can just go gorge and drop some stuff before going.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regularly. It seems on the servers I play on, when people note that there's a reasonable size game of NS happening (usually 8v8 or so) it's not very long until we're playing at 11v11 or more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that I thought about it, as teamsizes increase, marine upgrades will cost more, but aliens will get res slower so their upgrades will effectively cost more, in terms of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So now you're saying that a change won't matter that much, but somehow a slight change in armor ratios would? Beyond that however, why should marines get any 'steal' whatsoever? You'll note with the armor system proposed, there's really no steal that comes into play, because the changes are reflected through-out the game, not just before the upgrades are purchased.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slight changes in armor usally make a huge difference when we are talking skulk versus marine numbers.
Do you realize that a skulk with 10 more armor takes 2 more bullets, and that statitically skulks would totally dominate marines in terms of kills? Just because of a mere 2 bullets? It may seem wild but I assure you I know from plenty of experience that this happens to be the case. Actually, it is wild on how much a bullet can skew the game. I'm surprised whenever I think about it.
So if Savant's armor system makes it so a skulk takes one more or one less bullet because 2 people join/leave, then already it's too much for me.
Next, about the 'steal' comment... I thought about this more and it turns out marine's won't get a 'steal' out of this. While their upgrades will be cheaper, aliens will have a smaller team as well (remember, one team cannot be more than 2 players than the other (unless your server is run by crappy admins who change that feature)) so you would have smaller amounts of aliens who will be getting res quite quickly due to a smaller teamsize.
Both aliens and marines will get a few free 'steals' as the teamsizes increase in my system. Again, evidence of a working dynamic upgrade system.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay. I was confused here. I thought you were basing the armory upgrades on the number of marine players in the game, not on the size of both teams. So if there are more skulks in the game than marines, the marines upgrades cost more? I think I must still be missing something, because that doesn't sound right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the fact you seem to be forgetting, and that is how both teams will always be a relatively equal teamsize if both teams start from 0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->edit; Hm. This all leads to a thought and a suggestion. Is it in any way possible to adjust attributes like armor/health etc., on a per-map basis? As we all know there are some maps that are alien friendly, and some that are marine friendly. Perhaps a solution is something involving extensive play-testing of each map, and then adjusting armor/damage levels accordingly (in addition to whatever else is put in place for team-size issues)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not such a bad idea, but this would seriously be a major hindrence to nubs.
"OMG I WAS jUST 70/20 LAST MAP NOW I'M 70/10!! THIS GAME SUX"
- Marine team just kills have of alien team!
- 3 marines go to RR (remember, if 4 leave a team they automatically lose)
- half of alien team spawns in with 10% less hp
- Marines enter game again
In my system, if 3 marines suddenly leave, not only will there be no half a dead alien team for them to make sure their 3 player difference will not cause them to be raped on the battlefield, but also it will take some time for the cost to go down by about 4-6 res before those 3 marines can join in.
In savant's system, you know they are dead and respawning in weaker, and you know that leaving the game will not harm your team in anyway due to the fact that they are mostly dead.
Also, in my system, you don't base it around the event of alien's dying, but instead when the comm has enough res to buy and upgrade. Where the marine's are located will most likely not be convient for them to f4 in most cases. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn @ last page+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ last page)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, that's the difference though...
Savant's idea is easily abusable, mine is not.
If a guy f4's then he loses all of his equipment, his position, and has to respawn in again, major issues for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are your systems different? You said earlier that if a marine wants to abuse your system, they would have to lose position, equipment, and need to respawn again. Now you complain that Savant's system can be abused in the same way. In the scenario that you described, the marines were obviously in a dominant position (half alien team down, no marine losses, roughly halfway to hive). They would have to have half THEIR OWN team F4 (losing position, perhaps equipment, and requiring respawn).
As well, remember that not all the aliens respawn at the same time, the marines will need their men in the RR as long as the aliens are dead (at min). To optimally exploit Savant's system, the marines will need to stay in RR a split second longer than then each the skulks spawning (skulk spawns, marine joins, skulk spawn, marine join, etc), giving armor of 10% less, 6.66% less, and 3.33% less. That or have all three marines wait the whole 3*12(?) seconds for the skulks to all respawn. Under Savant's system, you will have to destroy your advantage in numbers, for a small exploit in armor. 3.33% health is less than a bullet.
You have 3 marines do it, one's with LA and aren't anywhere particularly important.
Next they would have to wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 min while the aliens spawn in.
Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game.
In my situtation, 3 marine's going to the RR to maximize effienciency for upgrades would never be a smart thing to do, simply because when your team is getting upgrades aliens are still alive and if they see 3 marines leave from any given area then of course they will immediately take advantage of it and your team will pay.
Therefore leaving with my upgrade system would not give any advantages.
This is just plainly wrong. "You" <i>seem</i> to get res faster but the reality is that the <i>alien team</i> continues to get res at the same rate. You cannot compare the rate at which an individual alien get res to the rate that the commander get res.
You have 3 marines do it, one's with LA and aren't anywhere particularly important.
Next they would have to wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 min while the aliens spawn in.
Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game.
In my situtation, 3 marine's going to the RR to maximize effienciency for upgrades would never be a smart thing to do, simply because when your team is getting upgrades aliens are still alive and if they see 3 marines leave from any given area then of course they will immediately take advantage of it and your team will pay.
Therefore leaving with my upgrade system would not give any advantages. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought we were talking about a 6v6 game, thus 3 players = 1/2 team. Anywho, thats besides the point.
In your situation, what if the marines take down half the alien team, THEN have 3 (LA/LMG) marines F4? Comm gets upgrades for cheaper cost and F4'ers wait to respawn. "Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in [not] weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game."
cheaper cost or negligibly weaker skulks. Thats the difference.
Regardless of how many players are on the alien team, as soon as the alien res pool has 6 res every alien on the team gets 1 resource point.
So on a 6v6 game, nothing changes.
on a 15 vs 15 game, aliens would receive resources as if they were playing a 6 v 6 game. (Meaning aliens get more resources).
Problems:
- On extremely small games (eg. 1v1) alien(s) get res slower because they need 6 res in their res pool to give everyone 1 resource point
- On extremely large games (eg. 15v15) aliens get res quicker because instead of needing 15 resources in their pool to give each alien 1 res, they only need 6 resources in their pool to give everyone 1 resource point.
You have 3 marines do it, one's with LA and aren't anywhere particularly important.
Next they would have to wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 min while the aliens spawn in.
Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game.
In my situtation, 3 marine's going to the RR to maximize effienciency for upgrades would never be a smart thing to do, simply because when your team is getting upgrades aliens are still alive and if they see 3 marines leave from any given area then of course they will immediately take advantage of it and your team will pay.
Therefore leaving with my upgrade system would not give any advantages. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought we were talking about a 6v6 game, thus 3 players = 1/2 team. Anywho, thats besides the point.
In your situation, what if the marines take down half the alien team, THEN have 3 (LA/LMG) marines F4? Comm gets upgrades for cheaper cost and F4'ers wait to respawn. "Meanwhile, your pressure marines will be there who could possibly spawncamp, or build up phases, and the aliens have less than 1 minute while their friends spawn in [not] weaker and before the other 3 marines in the RR come back into the game."
cheaper cost or negligibly weaker skulks. Thats the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First you kill half of the alien team, and then you upgrade?
Doing that will put you at a serious disadvantage during any point of the game. You will want to get upgrades ASAP, as all upgrades take time.
Dont try to side-step outta it.
Dont try to side-step outta it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not the same.
Waiting to kill off half the alien team before getting your upgrades just to take advantage of the cheaper cost is <b>not</b> effective at all. Upgrades take two things: Money, and <b>Time</b>. Since you don't know when you are gonna kill off the majority of the aliens at once, if ever, waitint to get upgrades once every time you kill off half their team is ludacris. I can tell you right now that if marines do not get a constant stream of upgrades they are either:
a.) Losing
b.) Have already lost
Meanwhile, since Savant's system changes when they spawn in, you can abuse it by simply leaving once you kill them all, rejoining once they spawn in, and then aliens are gonna be weaker (and therefore easier to kill and wipe them out again) and upon this 3 more players off the marine team can leave to make sure they keep spawning in weaker.
- get armor upgrade (normal cost)
- kill half a team while the armslab is doing the deed
- armor upgrade finishes (IIRC, it doesnt take that long, not for the first set anyway)
- F4/upgrade at cheaper cost/continue to pressure
I can easily provide methods to cover any possible scenerio you provide.
Marines leave? Make the calculation based on the team members on both teams and divide by two. So if 3 marines leave it would only impact a value of half that. We could also implement a rule that averages the number of players over the last 5 minutes. So any players that leave would have to wait in the lobby for 5 minutes to affect the alien armour level. Your pessimistic attitude doesn't help ANYONE Forlorn. You keep making up these wild generalizations that make no sense at all.
You also seem to have a very narrow view of what you want the game to be, and narrow views are not what NS needs right now. Open your mind to new ideas instead of rejecting any suggestion that doesn't mirror your point of view.
It gets tired when every post you make is negative.
Regards,
Savant
Right now, in standard pub games, you get maybe two-3 fades at the beginning. sometimes you get none because people don't know how to play fade. 2-3 is good, but if one should die, they won't have the res to refade. Whereas in 6v6, its 2 fades for 5 marines, and usually each fade can re-fade. I think a better approach would be to scale resflow for the size of the alien team. ie, at 8 players have increased resflow of 10%, 10 players, 20%, 12 players, 30%. This way the alien team can have a stable amount of higher level lifeforms, and we can keep it to 3-4 gorges per 12 people.
Right now, to win in 12v12 vs aliens, you need to have a better team outright. One reason is becuase good marines with great aim, can easily win the game in 5 minutes. What happens is that it takes 5minutes to get a fade and to get a hive in 12v12 at least, unless someone gets huge RFK. If the marines are good, they just get most aliens into a spawn queue, where like half the team is dead and it takes 2 minutes to spawn. All they have to do is spawn camp. At 1 hive, this is easily doable thats why a second hive is so much more important in 12v12 then 6v6. In 6v6, the aliens can be down to 1 res node and 1 hive, but as long as the fades live, they're not out. In 12v12, even if you have 2 fades, if you don't have the ability to get a second hive, you have no chance at winning. The best approach would be to scale spawning so that 12v12 is more balanced in this regard, ie, the hive speeds up spawning dynamically sort of the same way combat is sped up.
I think the idea isn't to balance pub play at different levels, but to attempt to fix some glaring errors, because pub play is important. If we had some sort of dynamic fixes to res flow and early game spawn time in 12v12, you'd have a lot more even games, and pub play would be similar to scrim play, which is a lot more fun imho.
I remember in 1.04, once dcs were made, skulks would almost always go into battle with carapace. It allowed skulks to have a pretty even fight againt level 1-2 upgraded rines - but made them pay for it just like the commander has to.
Since 2.0, hive1 upgraded skulks arent worth the evolution time or cost (except maybe celerity and focus, but its so rare i cant say), and players simply slug it out with no upgrades to save for fade.
The period between hive1 skulks and hive1 fades (usually the first 5 minutes of the game) can be very flustrating for aliens, and id like to see them have a few more options to play with. Making skulks with hive1 upgrades more effective vs level 0 - level 2 lmg rines (as i remember was the case in 1.04) is one way of doing this.
Id also like to see lerks with or without a hive1 upgrade to be more worthwhile during the same period (currently the 30 res is too risky, since a single level 0 lmg/pistol marine can quite easily kill them - nevermind a group of upgraded ones).
For example, prehaps give carapaced Skulks and Lerks more armour and regen Skulks and Lerks faster regeneration.
I feel that Fade and Onos are balanced as far as health and armour go. The main problem with fade is that its too easy to escape and get back to full health(effectively making a careful and patient player invincible).
I can easily provide methods to cover any possible scenerio you provide.
Marines leave? Make the calculation based on the team members on both teams and divide by two. So if 3 marines leave it would only impact a value of half that. We could also implement a rule that averages the number of players over the last 5 minutes. So any players that leave would have to wait in the lobby for 5 minutes to affect the alien armour level. Your pessimistic attitude doesn't help ANYONE Forlorn. You keep making up these wild generalizations that make no sense at all.
You also seem to have a very narrow view of what you want the game to be, and narrow views are not what NS needs right now. Open your mind to new ideas instead of rejecting any suggestion that doesn't mirror your point of view.
It gets tired when every post you make is negative.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually if you had read everything this is just one objection of many that you just adressed
Still on the list:
- What happens when the comm splits up marines in large games? They have to fight super skulks, as opposed to smaller games being by yourself means they fight normal skulks (70/10)
- Why should the fade/onos be any weaker in smaller games, you seem to think they are impossible to kill in a small game but I know from tons of experience this is false.
In the game, <b>AS IT STANDS NOW</b>, most alien teams get defense chambers first.
In the game, <b>AS IT STANDS NOW</b>, a hive 1 skulk can get the carapace level 3 upgrade and become a 70/30 skulk with 60% armour absorbsion.
Under my proposal, the only time you would see a 70/30 skulk would be in a 16vs16 game, and that 70/30 skulk would NOT get the benefit of carapace level 3 since I would tie that to hives. So they would only have level 1 carapace, or a 40% armour absorbsion.
So in reality, the BEST one hive skulk in my system would still be slightly weaker than the best skulk in the game RIGHT NOW.
Please stop making up these lame knee-jerk excuses to problems that don't exist. No offense, but it really makes you look foolish.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Why should the fade/onos be any weaker in smaller games, you seem to think they are impossible to kill in a small game but I know from tons of experience this is false. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->In most small games the fade/onos are unnecessarily difficult to kill by a squad of marines. Too much firepower is needed, and it often exceeds the available firepower of the marine team.
Now this is not to say that I think EVERY fade/onos is too ard to kill. Skill does play a factor, but only the novice fade/onos (who doesn't understand hit and run) will die to a team of marines.
In the early game (when a small shift in the balance of power can make a huge difference in game balance) it is crucial that marines not get pummelled into oblivion by a single fade while the rest of the alien team locks down the map.
This falls into the category of public play concerns, and is a legitimate concern given the gameplay on public servers.
You can disagree with the solution if you like, but you can't ignore the problem without becoming a hypocrite. (since it is YOU who has loudly proclaimed that the aliens win more games - if so, why do you now resist changes to address that?)
Regards,
Savant
In the game, AS IT STANDS NOW, most alien teams get defense chambers first.
In the game, AS IT STANDS NOW, a hive 1 skulk can get the carapace level 3 upgrade and become a 70/30 skulk with 60% armour absorbsion.
Under my proposal, the only time you would see a 70/30 skulk would be in a 16vs16 game, and that 70/30 skulk would NOT get the benefit of carapace level 3 since I would tie that to hives. So they would only have level 1 carapace, or a 40% armour absorbsion.
So in reality, the BEST one hive skulk in my system would still be slightly weaker than the best skulk in the game RIGHT NOW. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this doesn't make sense, because most alien teams do not get 3 defense chambers right away into the game.
A skulk taking 13 bullets is far too much at the start of the game, a dominant strategy of skulk rushes would form and would obliterate the marines...
Sure, you could just tweak the numbers, but I honestly can't see this as a solution to anything.
Aliens cannot be "tougher" in certain situations (such as larger games) to make up for their weaknesses.
Even in larger games, I don't mind how marine firepower grows out of control, but what really bothers me is that it takes so long to get res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most small games the fade/onos are unnecessarily difficult to kill by a squad of marines. Too much firepower is needed, and it often exceeds the available firepower of the marine team.
Now this is not to say that I think EVERY fade/onos is too ard to kill. Skill does play a factor, but only the novice fade/onos (who doesn't understand hit and run) will die to a team of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill is pretty much the only factor. That's why I think fades are fine.
Have you considered in order to slow down the early game fades, you could lower alien starting res to 20 and make gorges cost 5?
This would delay the cost of fades by 5 res, which averages out to 30 seconds over all game sizes.
This is a very nice and elegant solution, because you don't actually touch the combat aspects (which is why fades vs. shotguns is so much fun), and marines will have a bit more time to get some power on the field in anticapation of the fades. Best of all, since the cost of the fades aren't touched, the time to refade is not touched.
But i think that making gorges 5 res is a very good change, and that they should have a little more armour too. Skulking should be totally free, and upgrades for the skulk should be one res, not two, to encourage skulks to get upgrades. Maybe this would solve so balance issues? Fades come in a little later in the game, and the skulks stand a better chance to keep up with the marine teching. Sounds good to me, since i think that the clangames are a little too focused around the mid-game as it is (midgame is like 70% of the entire game <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Every post you make seems to say "OMG COUNTER TO MY POENT SUCH NEGATAVIETY BS FORLRON FOGHAT" with a pretty face thrown onto it.
I don't know about you, but I find fades and onos simple to kill with proper stratigy.
One or two bullets can make a HUGE difference. Ever come out on top of a conflict with 10-20 hp as a skulk? Guess what? You've been saved by your ability to take one or two more bullets. It happens quite often.
It seems to me, from reading you posts, you want NS to turn into a game where it doesn't matter what class or guns the player currently is/has, you just want each to be as powerfull as the next or the last, with a "different atmospheric experience" thrown in.
On this current "issue," some seem to fail to see the abusability. You can abuse the armor changing for the following reasons-
:: You can choose to f4 after killing a large portion of the alien team, which is bound to happen at one point in most games.
:: You're going to confuse many people who don't understand the system fully, and that's just going to be a major turn off towards this mod.
:: The numbers would make it so that in order for one to balance the game, one would have to balence every team size possible.
You can't abuse Forlorn's upgrade system for the following reasons:
:: You can't "Choose" when to kill off half the alien team. Getting upgrades at a constant rate is far more important than holding off until you kill off half a team so you can save 2-6 res.
:: Should you choose to f4 afterwards and wait for the full value of the price to decrease, you've just wasted... well, you're wasting time which could've been spend upgrading/gaining the upperhand to save about 1-2 meds in res. Congrats, you beat the system. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
:: These numbers make sense, even to novice players because anyone can understand "More rines = more expensive upgrades" but not many people are going to understand why they were a 70/30 skulk and all of a sudden a 70/24 skulk their next life because a player or 2 lagged out on the rine team.
Forlorn's system is ready to adapt to any changes in the game, whereas yours is static, and only changes due to "certain events" making it abuseable.
It's good to see so many people thinking for the community, but some ideas just don't hold ground when push comes to shove.
Your health last map was 70/30, this map it's 70/15.. deal with it. It's been balanced (hopefully) and those are the numbers that worked the best. If you need a "realism" reason.. the Hive doesn't waste resources on creating creatures tougher than it needs to -- so now you know that you have exactly what you need to take out these marines.
Marines don't know exactly how many bullets it'll take to down any given skulk? This is a *good* thing, it adds to the fear and tension. Besides, it makes creating first class aim-bots that little bit harder.
See, the thing is, this is to put the fun back into the game. Fun for me doesn't come from knowing the numbers. Fun doesn't come from calculating.. "Okay.. I know I landed two pistol shots into him.. I've got 4 more left in my clip.. do I reload or try for two knife slashes" fun comes from having a reasonable chance, regardless of the game size. Fun comes from not being stuck in the spawn queue by spawn campers or siegeblasts. Fun comes from *not* getting lost and being able to help out my team.