Anyone Else Sick Of The Same Thing Happening?
Teioh
Canadia Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9453Members, Constellation
Canadia Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9453Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Same thing every game</div>
Personally, I just can't stand it any longer. I'm so sick of the same thing happening almost every game. You get early fades who destroy the resources which stops cash flow which leads to a hault in upgrades. The game then turns into a lame hit and run tactic for the fade so he can feel proud that he has 50-2 against basic marines. Now I don't play in clan matches, I had too much of the clan scene in TFC and i'd like to stay away from that. I like to have fun playing pubs where unbelievably skilled marines isn't a requirement to win the game. I want to be able to go out of my base and have fun, maybe take an RT down, fight a couple of skulks. I do not want to be blinked upon and then swiped to death in two seconds the second I step out of my base.
To beat these fades (it's generally the same couple of people who go fade over and over again), you need to be very skilled, and you need a few skilled players which if you didn't know, isn't very common on your average server. However, If you happen to get lucky enough to kill him then you get a fadeless game for what, two minutes because he can just go right back to fade again. It's just not fun seeing this exact scenerio playing out over and over and over and over and over again. It really makes it frustrating for the marines and I can only imagine what a newer player must feel like.
I used to be that fade in 2.0. That fade who would blink into the base, take out 3 players and blink out again and with 3.0, now that fades are even stronger, it just makes it easier. Now I've completely stopped fading because I've seen what it is like on marine side. <b>it's just not fun</b>. You know there is something wrong when one life form is able to take out limitless numbers of marine player without much effort really (once you get the method down, it really isn't hard to be a very lethal fade). I just hope to god something is done about this because it's just lame.
Call me a newb, do what ever you want because really, I just don't care. I do ask one thing, when you do flame me, please keep in mind that the counter to one life form shouldn't be a number of very skilled players. BTW, I do know the skill gap in Fades. I know that a newbie Fade is worthless but that's not justification for a godlike creature. I personally know how to avoid a lot of the fades attacks using special manouvers and I know that blocking can be a good way to kill a fade but I am talking about normal players here, not the ones who have played this game since 1.04. I'm talking about the players who play this game a few times a week who don't know how to bunny hop or use advanced techniques.
/endrant
Personally, I just can't stand it any longer. I'm so sick of the same thing happening almost every game. You get early fades who destroy the resources which stops cash flow which leads to a hault in upgrades. The game then turns into a lame hit and run tactic for the fade so he can feel proud that he has 50-2 against basic marines. Now I don't play in clan matches, I had too much of the clan scene in TFC and i'd like to stay away from that. I like to have fun playing pubs where unbelievably skilled marines isn't a requirement to win the game. I want to be able to go out of my base and have fun, maybe take an RT down, fight a couple of skulks. I do not want to be blinked upon and then swiped to death in two seconds the second I step out of my base.
To beat these fades (it's generally the same couple of people who go fade over and over again), you need to be very skilled, and you need a few skilled players which if you didn't know, isn't very common on your average server. However, If you happen to get lucky enough to kill him then you get a fadeless game for what, two minutes because he can just go right back to fade again. It's just not fun seeing this exact scenerio playing out over and over and over and over and over again. It really makes it frustrating for the marines and I can only imagine what a newer player must feel like.
I used to be that fade in 2.0. That fade who would blink into the base, take out 3 players and blink out again and with 3.0, now that fades are even stronger, it just makes it easier. Now I've completely stopped fading because I've seen what it is like on marine side. <b>it's just not fun</b>. You know there is something wrong when one life form is able to take out limitless numbers of marine player without much effort really (once you get the method down, it really isn't hard to be a very lethal fade). I just hope to god something is done about this because it's just lame.
Call me a newb, do what ever you want because really, I just don't care. I do ask one thing, when you do flame me, please keep in mind that the counter to one life form shouldn't be a number of very skilled players. BTW, I do know the skill gap in Fades. I know that a newbie Fade is worthless but that's not justification for a godlike creature. I personally know how to avoid a lot of the fades attacks using special manouvers and I know that blocking can be a good way to kill a fade but I am talking about normal players here, not the ones who have played this game since 1.04. I'm talking about the players who play this game a few times a week who don't know how to bunny hop or use advanced techniques.
/endrant
Comments
/snip...
Call me a newb, do what ever you want because really, I just don't care. I do ask one thing, when you do flame me, please keep in mind that the counter to one life form shouldn't be a number of very skilled players. BTW, I do know the skill gap in Fades. I know that a newbie Fade is worthless but that's not justification for a godlike creature. I personally know how to avoid a lot of the fades attacks using special manouvers and I know that blocking can be a good way to kill a fade but I am talking about normal players here, not the ones who have played this game since 1.04. I'm talking about the players who play this game a few times a week who don't know how to bunny hop or use advanced techniques. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, in one paragraph you say you need skilled players to kill these skilled fades, and then in an other say unskilled fades are useless.
New 'rine players can't stop a skilled fade. You need skilled players marine to stop them. Skilled 'rines will kill newb fades. I fail to see the problem.
Hopefully it will go through!
IMO, fade is the best class at the moment, all of the others being either ridicilously slow (onos, gorge, skulk) or weak (1 sg blast = skulk, lerk, gorge). Fades cost 50 res, but against three, basic marines that 50 res can be for naught. This, I think, is good balance. Fades can take out lone marines, deal damage to a group of them, and still survive without getting insta-gibbed at the first shot (like he used to).
If only acid rocket were better... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In warcraft 3 u know that your archer is going to die to a feind, but if they were controlled by people the archer could easily win.
the problem is skill and how much it affect the game. thats why rts fps hybrids were really never attempted because they are so extreemly hard to ballance. even if a fade is supposed to be the counter to la marine, the marine could still easily pull out the victory.
In ns it is going to be very hard to balance with "counters" or to even have a "counter" system within the game. Skill screws anychance at having a normal rts style normal damage beats light armor.
All you can really do to make ns fun and balanced is to turn it into another cs with lifeforms in the place of weapons.
having a Teir system, ala hives, is going to seriously hamper the ns style of gameplay because even if you got your whole team to go 3 hive onos with full upgrades they could still die to a team of LA HMG marines. The problem is skill.
in Warcraft 3 you know a grunt will crush a footman, but if they were played by people the footman would have a chance if he was effective at dodging and attacking.
Theres no solid foundation in ns to make clear cut counters like fade defeats LA or HA counters skulks because the skill the players have could easily let a HA HMG fall victim to a skilled skulk.
There is no way to balance ns while trying to keep the RTS style in place because merly having poeple play the roles of the units defeat the purpose of a good rts game that is based on normalcy. you know a footman will die to a grunt you know an archer will die to a feind you know a turen will distroy a footman. Thats how an RTS is made. With the RTS aspect you ruin any chance the RTS style of play had.
Im thinking that combat is the future of ns because it the only version that you can balance skill factors.
In warcraft 3 u know that your archer is going to die to a feind, but if they were controlled by people the archer could easily win.
the problem is skill and how much it affect the game. thats why rts fps hybrids were really never attempted because they are so extreemly hard to ballance. even if a fade is supposed to be the counter to la marine, the marine could still easily pull out the victory.
In ns it is going to be very hard to balance with "counters" or to even have a "counter" system within the game. Skill screws anychance at having a normal rts style normal damage beats light armor.
All you can really do to make ns fun and balanced is to turn it into another cs with lifeforms in the place of weapons.
having a Teir system, ala hives, is going to seriously hamper the ns style of gameplay because even if you got your whole team to go 3 hive onos with full upgrades they could still die to a team of LA HMG marines. The problem is skill.
in Warcraft 3 you know a grunt will crush a footman, but if they were played by people the footman would have a chance if he was effective at dodging and attacking.
Theres no solid foundation in ns to make clear cut counters like fade defeats LA or HA counters skulks because the skill the players have could easily let a HA HMG fall victim to a skilled skulk.
There is no way to balance ns while trying to keep the RTS style in place because merly having poeple play the roles of the units defeat the purpose of a good rts game that is based on normalcy. you know a footman will die to a grunt you know an archer will die to a feind you know a turen will distroy a footman. Thats how an RTS is made. With the RTS aspect you ruin any chance the RTS style of play had.
Im thinking that combat is the future of ns because it the only version that you can balance skill factors. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are so wrong its pathetic. NS3.0beta3 is VERY balanced. Fades are easy to take down IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT. You cant make a game where some random pub nub can take down a fade, and call it balanced. That not balanced, that's just weird.
Skill is a big part of NS, but if you see it this way; you can't make a player that's totally new to WC3 beat a veteran, and call it balaced, because it isn't. Skill does matter in every computergame, and it should, because without it it no game would be fun to play, becuase there would be no chance to evolve and get better.
Skill is a big part of NS, but if you see it this way; you can't make a player that's totally new to WC3 beat a veteran, and call it balaced, because it isn't. Skill does matter in every computergame, and it should, because without it it no game would be fun to play, becuase there would be no chance to evolve and get better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you missed the point. What I gathered is this, in a pure RTS, the outcome of certain battles is known (a powerful more expensive unit will win against a weaker unit).
In NS, the outcome of certain battles may be likely, but they are not certain. (A weaker unit can kill a powerful, more expensive unit).
Balancing the game is difficult because you do not know if it is the unit itself that is too powerful or if it is the skill gap between players that is causing an inbalance.
Dear lord I hope not.
on another note, lol
Or you can see that once you understand the stupidity that is turn-strafing (or whatever you like to call it), you can basicly do the most retarded things in midair - like turn corners better than you would on the ground.
The latter is one of the things that makes aliens unfun to play imo. If you don't know about releasing forward, strafing and turning your mouse simultaneously to exploit HL physics, most creatures are extremely frustrating. While both the skilllevel progress and the gaming experience for a marine are pretty good, this simply isn't true for aliens - opponents can keep you just out of range forever if you don't Bhop/Strafeturn as a Skulk. Your Fade will have 5 times more trouble getting away than anyone elses, not to mention closing in for the final swipe after knockback.
And to top it off, the people that suffer from it barely know of its existence. They might know what bhopping is, but have no way to know how far this impacts them :/
Yes it's pretty balanced, but it's nowhere near as fun as 2.0, which in turn wasn't as fun as the COMPLETELY UNBALANCED 1.04
Yea that owned <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
gg Saltzbad
Yes it's pretty balanced, but it's nowhere near as fun as 2.0, which in turn wasn't as fun as the COMPLETELY UNBALANCED 1.04 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO, 1.04 was the most fun version, and 3.0 is the most balanced. 2.01 was just fairly balanced, but not yet as balanced/fun as 3.0.
My memories from 1.04 are mainly from the kharaa side since i almost only played alien (i thought marines were *** 'cause of the imbalance), and I actually like 3.0 more fightingwise because of that, but I agree. Nothing was more fun than giant hive-battles. Evar.
In warcraft 3 u know that your archer is going to die to a feind, but if they were controlled by people the archer could easily win.
the problem is skill and how much it affect the game. thats why rts fps hybrids were really never attempted because they are so extreemly hard to ballance. even if a fade is supposed to be the counter to la marine, the marine could still easily pull out the victory.
In ns it is going to be very hard to balance with "counters" or to even have a "counter" system within the game. Skill screws anychance at having a normal rts style normal damage beats light armor.
All you can really do to make ns fun and balanced is to turn it into another cs with lifeforms in the place of weapons.
having a Teir system, ala hives, is going to seriously hamper the ns style of gameplay because even if you got your whole team to go 3 hive onos with full upgrades they could still die to a team of LA HMG marines. The problem is skill.
in Warcraft 3 you know a grunt will crush a footman, but if they were played by people the footman would have a chance if he was effective at dodging and attacking.
Theres no solid foundation in ns to make clear cut counters like fade defeats LA or HA counters skulks because the skill the players have could easily let a HA HMG fall victim to a skilled skulk.
There is no way to balance ns while trying to keep the RTS style in place because merly having poeple play the roles of the units defeat the purpose of a good rts game that is based on normalcy. you know a footman will die to a grunt you know an archer will die to a feind you know a turen will distroy a footman. Thats how an RTS is made. With the RTS aspect you ruin any chance the RTS style of play had.
Im thinking that combat is the future of ns because it the only version that you can balance skill factors. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you talk about is something called HARD counters, which you are correct, NS has very few of. However, NS is full of SOFT counters, strategies that when properly played give an advantage over some other strategy. Trying to elec rush an alien team that went DC is doomed to fail or at least be a struggle because the benefits of DC tend to help defeat the advantages of the electricity. In this case, I would say that DC soft counters elec, whereas bile bomb or an onos would be a more hard counter. The problem is that people are still trying to balance NS in strategic terms in a case where teamwork is minimal (pubs) to moderate (good pubs). THe problem is that for balance to be rigorously considered, on some level you must make the assumption not that everyone is skilled but that everyone is knowledgible. This is just simply not the case, as several posts here have shown ... there is a lot of skill in pub NS but very very very little knowledge.
As I see it, there are only 3 ways to kill a 1 hive good DC fade. What i mean about good is good DECISION making, using teammates and the map to attack only during advantageous situations, and then to make the situation advantageous for other aliens to help.
1. Massive firepower - This is pretty much 3+ marines in a tight group. For larger rooms you need HMG's, for smaller rooms/hallways shotties are fine. This won't tend to happen, because a good fade simply wouldn't approach a group big enough to easily kill them.
2. Trap/block - Creating some sort of trap, either by marines hiding in a room or marines waiting in the fade's retreat path. Normally shotties work best for traps, allowing a marine to deal large amounts of damage fairly instantly. However, if blocking the fade's retreat in a large hallway/room, then an HMG would probably work better.
3. Attacking the 2nd hive - The easiest way to kill a fade is in a situation where they will be greedy/agressive because they will tend to make mistakes and die. The best example of this is rushing a building 2nd hive, most fades tend to allow more risk when trying to save a hive than otherwise. Plus, a cara fade has a very hard time defending the building hive.
Fades are NOT overpowered. I'm straight back from a game where 3 lvl 0LMG-ers took down a regen fade right outside the corridors at mess hall. He was a pretty good skulk, but a bad fade.
The marines were your avarage pubbers, while he was a clanner practicing fading. This, at least to me, is a proof that the fade isnt overpowered. That was 0 res taking down 50 res in a matter of seconds, sure, it was his own fault, but my point is FADES CAN BE TAKEN DOWN! The best strategy is to trap them, so that they can escape. If you succeed, you will have a dead fade. Some might call it lame, i call it smart.
Fades are NOT overpowered. I'm straight back from a game where 3 lvl 0LMG-ers took down a regen fade right outside the corridors at mess hall. He was a pretty good skulk, but a bad fade.
The marines were your avarage pubbers, while he was a clanner practicing fading. This, at least to me, is a proof that the fade isnt overpowered. That was 0 res taking down 50 res in a matter of seconds, sure, it was his own fault, but my point is FADES CAN BE TAKEN DOWN! The best strategy is to trap them, so that they can escape. If you succeed, you will have a dead fade. Some might call it lame, i call it smart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree