<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 26 2004, 09:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 26 2004, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 08:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> from what I've noticed in competetive play each additional player marines get in competetive play (marines who can aim good) the marine's become almost <b>exponentially</b> stronger. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. Thats why you clanners(6v6) see overpowered aliens (or now as you may claim 'balanced'), while us pubbers(10+ v 10+) see waaay over powered marines. In small pubs (6v6 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->), aliens completely demolish marines.Thats one of the main reasons why the two 'sides' have disagreements over balance. The strive for 'balance' has b0rked the pub games.
Seriously guys, is it so hard to get 1 or 2 more guys on your team? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. 6v6 is the most balanced. 7v7 may be, but as of right now unless I see all of the clans and leagues switch over anytime soon I'm not convinced.
The reason a pubber may think it to be unfair is because it really does take quite a bit of skill to win as marines against the aliens.
There are less players in the game and therefore it's more about you, and less about mass firepower where 5 other dudes can cover you at any given time if you miss.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 09:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No. 6v6 is the most balanced. 7v7 may be, but as of right now unless I see all of the clans and leagues switch over anytime soon I'm not convinced.
The reason a pubber may think it to be unfair is because it really does take quite a bit of skill to win as marines against the aliens.
There are less players in the game and therefore it's more about you, and less about mass firepower where 5 other dudes can cover you at any given time if you miss. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You claimed:
1. game is balanced at 6v6. 2. marine power grows exponentially (not literally though, but really quick nontheless)
Simple fact:
-Pubs are often 10 players + on each team.
Work that logic, and you know you cant simply blame everything on 'skill'.
There is seriously no reason why the game should be balanced around 6v6 when most players are experiencing 8v8 - 12v12.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 26 2004, 09:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 26 2004, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 26 2004, 08:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 26 2004, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> from what I've noticed in competetive play each additional player marines get in competetive play (marines who can aim good) the marine's become almost <b>exponentially</b> stronger. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. Thats why you clanners(6v6) see overpowered aliens (or now as you may claim 'balanced'), while us pubbers(10+ v 10+) see waaay over powered marines. In small pubs (6v6 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->), aliens completely demolish marines.Thats one of the main reasons why the two 'sides' have disagreements over balance. The strive for 'balance' has b0rked the pub games.
Seriously guys, is it so hard to get 1 or 2 more guys on your team? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it that hard to remove a slot or 2?
Take cs for example, the scrims are 5v5 (lo3? omg ready? kekeke) but their are pubs with 16v16, and in no way are they balanced in the least. But people still play in there just for fun or because they have nothing better to do. Ns shouldn't really be any different, beyond 6v6 should be on your own risk. (not saying ns should copy cs its just a successful game to model after)
-Pubs are often 10 players + on each team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And marines tend to win those games due to some reasons Forlorn mentioned, and others he didn't (such as additional firepower available anywhere on the map to attack structures etc from a distance, plus every marine gets every upgrade.)
Now that being said, I agree with others in this thread (and made a similar one elsewhere) that 1 fade takes 2+ marines to kill it, for every marine above 1 needed, means that many aliens are running free across the map.. Attacking RT's etc..
Now this sounds contridictory, except for the fact that more marines (in really large games) mean they can cover and are in more of the map, so there is a better chance they are holding positions that aliens must travel through, and as such end up killing more aliens. Which allows them to tech faster and do more search/destroy of enemy RT's...
I really think that competitive matches should try 7 marines v 6 aliens, that way both teams have the same number of "men" in the field... This would give marines an extra body which would be very useful in matches.
As I mentioned in that other thread.. These are MY experiences.. your mileage may vary...
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Mar 26 2004, 10:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Mar 26 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is it that hard to remove a slot or 2?
Take cs for example, the scrims are 5v5 (lo3? omg ready? kekeke) but their are pubs with 16v16, and in no way are they balanced in the least. But people still play in there just for fun or because they have nothing better to do. Ns shouldn't really be any different, beyond 6v6 should be on your own risk. (not saying ns should copy cs its just a successful game to model after) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You like your games balanced, we like our games balanced. Pub CSers dont give a damn, whatever pops their personal score is all they want. Popping your roster by 1 or 2 would be tremendous help for both sides to be satisfied. The reason why many of us are still with NS is because you can actually have a half decent game every once in a while. Modelling NS pubs after CS pubs is a bad idea, reasons are all too obvious.
-Pubs are often 10 players + on each team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And marines tend to win those games due to some reasons Forlorn mentioned, and others he didn't (such as additional firepower available anywhere on the map to attack structures etc from a distance, plus every marine gets every upgrade.)
Now that being said, I agree with others in this thread (and made a similar one elsewhere) that 1 fade takes 2+ marines to kill it, for every marine above 1 needed, means that many aliens are running free across the map.. Attacking RT's etc..
Now this sounds contridictory, except for the fact that more marines (in really large games) mean they can cover and are in more of the map, so there is a better chance they are holding positions that aliens must travel through, and as such end up killing more aliens. Which allows them to tech faster and do more search/destroy of enemy RT's...
I really think that competitive matches should try 7 marines v 6 aliens, that way both teams have the same number of "men" in the field... This would give marines an extra body which would be very useful in matches.
As I mentioned in that other thread.. These are MY experiences.. your mileage may vary... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zunni, neither you nor Forlorn has yet to refute my point. Thanks for giving the reasons why the marines have an easier time in larger games tho.
Skill has nothing to do with it, in a 10v10 game, the marines WILL get more out of their upgrades, the marines WILL get a stronger concentration of firepower, marines WILL get stuff faster due to their pooled res system. These will not be changed by 'skill', they are a part of the game design.
All Im asking is to get more guys in your squad. There isnt much point in balancing the game around 6v6 when the game is mostly played with much more players. Bring your player count up, and there will not be a need for the stupid 'balanced for scrim/balanced for pub' arguement.
I think that 7v7 or 8v8 scrims wouldnt be that fun, it would be too many players on the map. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I also find pub to be pretty balanced, but hey, I dont play on American pubs, and I know the gameplay is pretty different in the US and in Europe
Maybe change one thing for the aliens to make it a little fairer. For all the costs of the creatures, except the skulk and gorge, maybe cost should be a little higher than what it is currently for 1 hive, with two hives, its the same amount as it is now, and hive 3 its a little lower than that. So with one hive, a fade would cost 60 res, 2 hives, 50 res, 3 hives 40 res.
Its an idea, remember if you beat aliens, that doesn't mean the team you are facing is equal to you, I find that most ties are alien vs alien. Marine vs marine ties are rare.
I will add my thoughts to the whole issue of numerical balance. Now, realize I make these comments from the perspective of the commander, and how I FEEL the game progress. Btw, I'm only talking about the dc game, to generalize would be harder. Also, I'm not considering the larger 3.0 maps such as ayumi or agora, for whom larger games might be more balanced.
In a 6v6, marines can dominate early game with map control OR firepower, however once early fades arrive marines will tend to lose map control. The primary means of marines regaining map control once fades arrive is to either kill the fades or get jetpacks. Phase gates increase marine mobility, but that I find does not equate to map control with these numbers (it does help), since the marines will still have to leave the phase in groups or die to the fade. In small games like this I defend base until fades arrive (if I drop myself an HMG I'll defend against fades too), then I tend to keep someone guarding the vicinity of base but not in base itself. As it is now, a well focused alien attack on marine base is devastating because it will cause either a loss of res/time or instead a loss of map control through marine overreaction (beacon anyone?).
In a 7v7, which I have scrimmed once and pugged twice, was a little different. I dominated the early game with map control and outmanuvering like usual, however the fades came just slightly later than with a 6v6. What tended to happen was in situations where I would have been 1/1 when fades came I was 2/1, or if I was 2/1 I would be 2/1 with catpacks. Regardless, I was more teched and better equiped by the time the first fades hit the field. The result of this WITH the extra marine allowed me to push the fades back with less manpower while maintaining a lot more map control and thus more res/scouting. The simple conclusion, the extra marine allows me to tech faster because it allows me to hold more res. In addition, the extra alien causes the aliens to tech slower, which is a problem. This tech inbalance can very easily lead to a res imbalance and that will lead to aliens going down the slippery slope.
I have only played one serious game of 8v8 on tanith. I catpack/lmg rushed waste around 2:30 with 1/0 marines. 7 lmgs + 28 res in catpacks = very very hard to stop.
This is merely an explanation of my experience with different team sizes. Now, there is one other point I must make clear for those people who still want marines to have an extra player. The comm CAN fight, and when used properly the comm hopping out can crush a base rush. In fact, I tend to hop out nearly every game as comm, but that's just my style. I've even killed fades too, but that's only because I drop myself an hmg and get back into the cc beforehand.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited March 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Zunni, neither you nor Forlorn has yet to refute my point. Thanks for giving the reasons why the marines have an easier time in larger games tho.
Skill has nothing to do with it, in a 10v10 game, the marines WILL get more out of their upgrades, the marines WILL get a stronger concentration of firepower, marines WILL get stuff faster due to their pooled res system. These will not be changed by 'skill', they are a part of the game design.
All Im asking is to get more guys in your squad. There isnt much point in balancing the game around 6v6 when the game is mostly played with much more players. Bring your player count up, and there will not be a need for the stupid 'balanced for scrim/balanced for pub' arguement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'm not opposed to trying 7 v7 or 7v 6 (as I suggested) in a scrim.. I think much larger than that, and marines can cover too much of the map at once making the changes necessary much more damaging to smaller servers and thus swinging the balance so that people who enjoy smaller servers (7-12 people, of which I'm one) will be left out in the cold.
THere's an interesting thread going on in the Beta "Discussion" area (<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=66623' target='_blank'>will edit with Link</a>), that talks about the fact that balancing needs to be done for all servers... Not just the 12 v 12 or 6 v 6 or 3 v 3.. But every person needs to get something out of the game play experience at all these levels.
Lets be serious. To add more people in competative play would seriously devistate the clan scene. Its hard enough for new clans to get the rosters to field 6 people constantly and for every person you add to that list adds that much more to the problem.
Putting the fact it would devistate clan play aside. From this point on ns has been balanced toward the notion that clans would be fielding six people. I can see how it would work in the interest of balance if pubs and clan games fielded the same number of people, but it would take an entire new version to make the needed changes which I dont think is feasible at this point.
btw: I think that marines and aliens are at a good par in clan play.
<!--QuoteBegin-nutter1+Mar 27 2004, 07:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nutter1 @ Mar 27 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After playing a long while at ns and hearing people constantly moaning about how unblanced ns scrims are at 6 vs 6 i got a few suggestions.
Make the games 8vs 8 this way rines should get a little better resource flow and should be able to match alien ugrades a bit more.
Or u could make the gme 7 rines vs 6 aliens as rines always mainly have 1 in the cc all the time. and this would may be blance it also
Just a few thoughts <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not everyone agree's marines are at a disadvantage. I for one dont believe the marines need the boost.
On public servers of 10+ each team if u got 2 experianced teams rines will win . as they do become over powerd in numbers with upgrades but i think making scrims 8 vs 8 would also help blance issues people always wine about.
I have to agree that the current beta feels close to balanced, but I also think that Aliens have the upper hand in scrims as long as you don't have a team of very good players wich can preassue the Aliens from the beginning and corner them. As it was meantioned before Aliens don't have to push forward all the time. I've seen Marines dominate games on ns_veil in early game, but once the Fades showed up the tides turned. Marines had to invest all their res in fighting the Fades (weapons, medpacks) and lost more and more of the map every second. You simply cannot argue the 50res = 1 Fade = 5 Shotguns, because if you want to concetrate your fire your Marines are in one place.. it's almost like your team then only has ONE player with a lot of firepower. The Aliens however still have some Skulks and Gorges roaming the map taking down your RTs. Also a good Fade (or most likely a team of two Fades) with carapace can keep a Marines squad busy with hit and run attacks and take out the Marines one after the other.
I guess the easiest thing to try would be to either raise Fade cost by 5, lower the research time or cost of the first Armor/Weapon upgrade (just the first one so Marines are prepared better for mid-game and still have to work for a good end-game) or lower Alien's r4k from 1-3 to 1-2 (or 0-2) so that Marines still have a little chance even if their squads get ambushed early on (basically delaying time time mark Fades first appear)
"Simply" making scrims 7vs7 or 8vs8 would not be practical... as a few others already noted some clans might get serious problems having enough players ready at the same time to play a scrim. We often enough have problems having 6 players... 8 players would be just too much to play any scrim at all.
There is also another practical reason to keep the games in scrims small, and that is the smaller the games, the more it becomes about "individual skill". In 10v10 it's more or less a spam fest and sometimes it really can feel like an RTS, where you are just a unit doing your set amount of damage before you die.
But in 6v6, I feel like my actions actually matter and that it places more responsibility on me. It's more stressful, but at the same time a lot more fun. That's why I clan I guess.
So really, even if games were balanced no matter the teamsize, I'm not sure I'd want to see clan games go bigger. A moderately small game of 6v6 means that you have enough players to do varied things, yet at the same time it falls down to more skill.
Honestly, I think people who don't like clan play just don't like the fact that 6v6 games will really expose how good/poor of a player they are.
I'm being honest here, ns_eclipse and ns_tanith, there is sometimes added pressure to relocate because of the nature of close quarters type maps. I don't think these two maps are that big.
In these two maps, only, I'd think would imbalance the Marines.
The most balance map I see at the moment is ns_origin. It is the best map in the game --> IMHO.
People talk about what a proper 'clan game' size should be and yet everyone expects the game to adapt to them.
Why not the clans adapt to the game?
Is it so hard to conceive that a multiplayer game MIGHT be better played with more players on each team? If people don't want to play that way then that is THEIR choice, don't force the game to change because they refuse to.
We're made a lot of sacrifices in this game for the sake of clan play, and all we've gotten for it is a game that SUCKS to play on as aliens. Whether or not it is balanced means nothing because the fun just is NOT there.
So please stop trying to destroy public play and instead adapt to the game. If veterans are the 'skilled players' that they make themseleves out to be, that shouldn't be a problem at all.
NS is dying week by week and all that will be left is the clan games if things stay as they are. (don't believe me? the stats speak for themselves - total user numbers during peak hours are DOWN from last month, which were DOWN from the month before and the month before that. December was the best month for NS based on my personal observations of total servers/players playing at various times - it's been downhill since then.)
So yeah, keep cramming the clan objectives down the throats of NS players.
Pretty soon you won't have to worry about large game since there won't be enough players interested to HAVE a large game. Enjoy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 27 2004, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 27 2004, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In 10v10 it's more or less a spam fest and sometimes it really can feel like an RTS, where you are just a unit doing your set amount of damage before you die. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait wait. feeling like an RTS is a BAD thing?!
Dude. The original designs of NS calls for marines that dont vary in 'skill'. I dont give a lark how 'skillful' the game makes you feel. 'Individual skill' is supposed to play a very small role in the marine side.
Dont believe me? Go read up on it. Why doesnt the marine guns have any recoil? Why is spread generally minimal? Why was bunnyhopping removed?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 27 2004, 08:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 27 2004, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, I think people who don't like clan play just don't like the fact that 6v6 games will really expose how good/poor of a player they are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the semi-veiled insult there, Forlorn.
I might argue that people who don't like larger games just don't like the fact that it exposes what a poor team-player they really are.
At any rate, it seems we differ in what we think is important about NS. What attracted me to NS is that it's a team game, and I get to be a team player. This is why I really like the gorge.
As is increasingly apparant, you really don't give two craps about the team aspect, and prefer everything to be all about your individual skill. (Which is why you've mentioned the gorge as not being fun). That's fine and dandy, but please don't try to take away one of the very few solidly team-oriented FPS games out there simply because you prefer to be the star. There are plenty of games out there where you can do that.
Meh, everyone likes to feel 'skillful' - what Forlorn describes is the feeling that in larger games tactics barely matter anymore, beyond not crowding too closely to your fellow marines. Its all just a gank and frag fest - if anything, its less like a strategy game than small ones.
He does not however mention that while 10v10 is an extremely bad number, 8v8 or 7v7 can be closer to perfect than 6v6 for current game balance. Of course he's naturally predisposed to not consider that too closely - as it would involve re-learning quite a few things about whats required to win a game and shift the balance of power a bit.
But I do believe if marine wins are truely too rare, just one extra guy for both sides can alleviate this. First, theres a row of small advantages to it - efficiency boost for upgrades, stacking of firepower et cetera. But the main advantage comes in the paired nature of marines - a lone marine has significant weakness, but a group of two will even under bad circumcstances usually break even loss/kill wise and be able to move ahead through the map. More than 3 marines in one spot is usually too crowded for many maps, and its hard to organize a form where you don't get in eachothers way regardless of how chaotic the situation becomes.
So in short, 6v6 means marines have 2 effective groups. The last lone rambo or 3rd man in one group is nifty, but does not help as much as a 3rd pair would.
And on the Alien side, it slows res down a tad bit, making it NOT instaloose if aliums get over 2 RTs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for the semi-veiled insult there, Forlorn.
I might argue that people who don't like larger games just don't like the fact that it exposes what a poor team-player they really are.
At any rate, it seems we differ in what we think is important about NS. What attracted me to NS is that it's a team game, and I get to be a team player. This is why I really like the gorge.
As is increasingly apparant, you really don't give two craps about the team aspect, and prefer everything to be all about your individual skill. (Which is why you've mentioned the gorge as not being fun). That's fine and dandy, but please don't try to take away one of the very few solidly team-oriented FPS games out there simply because you prefer to be the star. There are plenty of games out there where you can do that.
WHY DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO MAKE ME AGREE WITH FORLORN?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->? DAMN YOU ****!
So anyway to start with
1) I don't think he was trying to veil it.
2)You HAVE to have just as much if not MORE teamwork in 6v6
3)Forlorn said he felt more important because of that he didn't say this is why and only why it should be 6v6. Besides what Forlorn said was just a simple fact the smaller the game the more important individuals become. HOWEVER 6v6 requires as I said already TEAMWORK.
4.Where did that become increasingly apparent?? He likes the individual stuff to good for him that doesn't mean he doesn't like teamwork.
5. Among other things NS IS AN FPS ORIENTED GAME. FPS/RTS TEAMWORK AND FPS oriented so your view would be just as skewed as his no?
Anyway the bottom line is this. To fairly compete the game has to be 6v6 or maybe 7v7 thats the way the game is currently balanced. Its pretty damn simple.
This has nothign to do with getting people togethor for the delta clans. Every single one of them could get 10 at every match by simply recruiting a few more. Its not an issue of RTS vs FPS. Its not me just being a ****. THE GAME IS BALANCED ONLY FOR 6v6 and 7v7. THAT IS WHY WE PLAY 6v6.
Oh and the reasons for not wanting 7v7 or at least my reasons are pretty simply.
A game goes like this between two equal teams.
First 3-4 mins. Rines dominate take what they want and burn the rest down. Aliens try to hold 2-3 nodes generally they lose at least one. The marines have a small window to win right here.
Minutes 4-10. Aliens will generally put up 2nd hive have 2 fades and maybe a lerk. As I said if the two teams are equal the aliens will dominate this time. If they can lock the marines in base the game is over.
10+ If the rines have nodes they will have upgs by now and this is where the game can get unpredictable. Ninja pg? JPs? HA? vs Onos? 4 fades? Don't get me wrong though the marines shouldn't have nodes by this 70 percent of the time.
15+ If the marines have held nodes and the aliens are still at 2 hives the game should be over. They should have enough upgs to seige pg HA train whatever the **** they want. gg
So my conclusion being each team goes through phases where it can control the game and potentially end it. Adding a 7th player would increase whichever teams time it is during this periods advantage making it more unbalanced.
So my prediction would be that you would see alot more very early rine wins with 7 players.
If they didn't utterly dominate early then pretty much gg the aliens should walk over them before 10 mins is up and game over.
If some miracle happens and marines have nodes after 10 mins then they are still at a disadvantage but its much closer.
I think strats should be revisited if your marine team isn't succeeding over and over again. I mentioned two maps I think were a tad unbalanced in my last post.
I'm sure alot of people would agree with me, it's just strat reassessment - and a few people are talking about lack-of-teamwork ( 10v10 ) - that doesn't come down to the game - but how people play it.
There is a reason people [ on public servers ] tend to go off by themselves. And those reasons are understood when you see the skill in clan matches, the gunners, with the exception of the commander to an extent, use public servers as the individual whoring arena. This is where the gunners skill is concieved and I think we should all respect that this isn't ideal in reference to teamwork, but ideal for other people as it is fun and skill enhancing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 27 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 27 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 27 2004, 08:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 27 2004, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, I think people who don't like clan play just don't like the fact that 6v6 games will really expose how good/poor of a player they are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the semi-veiled insult there, Forlorn.
I might argue that people who don't like larger games just don't like the fact that it exposes what a poor team-player they really are.
At any rate, it seems we differ in what we think is important about NS. What attracted me to NS is that it's a team game, and I get to be a team player. This is why I really like the gorge.
As is increasingly apparant, you really don't give two craps about the team aspect, and prefer everything to be all about your individual skill. (Which is why you've mentioned the gorge as not being fun). That's fine and dandy, but please don't try to take away one of the very few solidly team-oriented FPS games out there simply because you prefer to be the star. There are plenty of games out there where you can do that.
Why not go play them instead? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Even though other's have already pointed it out, I'll just state it along with them in agreement that smaller games take much much more teamwork to play effectively.
Larger games do not require coordination because it's not hard to stumble across a teammate.
Because larger games require less teamwork, and less skill, larger games are the perfect enviroments for pub players.
Large games are fun for the mass-battle type feel, but it wears off and ultimately to me large games of NS feel like nerfed games of NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 27 2004, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 27 2004, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Larger games do not require coordination because it's not hard to stumble across a teammate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not stumbling across teammates = teamwork & coordination?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 27 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 27 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 27 2004, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 27 2004, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Larger games do not require coordination because it's not hard to stumble across a teammate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not stumbling across teammates = teamwork & coordination?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it means you actually have to PLAN OUT, and COORDINATE your movements since you can't randomally run around the map and find another person.
Comments
Exactly. Thats why you clanners(6v6) see overpowered aliens (or now as you may claim 'balanced'), while us pubbers(10+ v 10+) see waaay over powered marines. In small pubs (6v6 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->), aliens completely demolish marines.Thats one of the main reasons why the two 'sides' have disagreements over balance. The strive for 'balance' has b0rked the pub games.
Seriously guys, is it so hard to get 1 or 2 more guys on your team? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. 6v6 is the most balanced. 7v7 may be, but as of right now unless I see all of the clans and leagues switch over anytime soon I'm not convinced.
The reason a pubber may think it to be unfair is because it really does take quite a bit of skill to win as marines against the aliens.
There are less players in the game and therefore it's more about you, and less about mass firepower where 5 other dudes can cover you at any given time if you miss.
The reason a pubber may think it to be unfair is because it really does take quite a bit of skill to win as marines against the aliens.
There are less players in the game and therefore it's more about you, and less about mass firepower where 5 other dudes can cover you at any given time if you miss. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You claimed:
1. game is balanced at 6v6.
2. marine power grows exponentially (not literally though, but really quick nontheless)
Simple fact:
-Pubs are often 10 players + on each team.
Work that logic, and you know you cant simply blame everything on 'skill'.
There is seriously no reason why the game should be balanced around 6v6 when most players are experiencing 8v8 - 12v12.
Exactly. Thats why you clanners(6v6) see overpowered aliens (or now as you may claim 'balanced'), while us pubbers(10+ v 10+) see waaay over powered marines. In small pubs (6v6 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->), aliens completely demolish marines.Thats one of the main reasons why the two 'sides' have disagreements over balance. The strive for 'balance' has b0rked the pub games.
Seriously guys, is it so hard to get 1 or 2 more guys on your team? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it that hard to remove a slot or 2?
Take cs for example, the scrims are 5v5 (lo3? omg ready? kekeke) but their are pubs with 16v16, and in no way are they balanced in the least. But people still play in there just for fun or because they have nothing better to do. Ns shouldn't really be any different, beyond 6v6 should be on your own risk. (not saying ns should copy cs its just a successful game to model after)
-Pubs are often 10 players + on each team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And marines tend to win those games due to some reasons Forlorn mentioned, and others he didn't (such as additional firepower available anywhere on the map to attack structures etc from a distance, plus every marine gets every upgrade.)
Now that being said, I agree with others in this thread (and made a similar one elsewhere) that 1 fade takes 2+ marines to kill it, for every marine above 1 needed, means that many aliens are running free across the map.. Attacking RT's etc..
Now this sounds contridictory, except for the fact that more marines (in really large games) mean they can cover and are in more of the map, so there is a better chance they are holding positions that aliens must travel through, and as such end up killing more aliens. Which allows them to tech faster and do more search/destroy of enemy RT's...
I really think that competitive matches should try 7 marines v 6 aliens, that way both teams have the same number of "men" in the field... This would give marines an extra body which would be very useful in matches.
As I mentioned in that other thread.. These are MY experiences.. your mileage may vary...
Take cs for example, the scrims are 5v5 (lo3? omg ready? kekeke) but their are pubs with 16v16, and in no way are they balanced in the least. But people still play in there just for fun or because they have nothing better to do. Ns shouldn't really be any different, beyond 6v6 should be on your own risk. (not saying ns should copy cs its just a successful game to model after) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You like your games balanced, we like our games balanced. Pub CSers dont give a damn, whatever pops their personal score is all they want. Popping your roster by 1 or 2 would be tremendous help for both sides to be satisfied. The reason why many of us are still with NS is because you can actually have a half decent game every once in a while. Modelling NS pubs after CS pubs is a bad idea, reasons are all too obvious.
-Pubs are often 10 players + on each team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And marines tend to win those games due to some reasons Forlorn mentioned, and others he didn't (such as additional firepower available anywhere on the map to attack structures etc from a distance, plus every marine gets every upgrade.)
Now that being said, I agree with others in this thread (and made a similar one elsewhere) that 1 fade takes 2+ marines to kill it, for every marine above 1 needed, means that many aliens are running free across the map.. Attacking RT's etc..
Now this sounds contridictory, except for the fact that more marines (in really large games) mean they can cover and are in more of the map, so there is a better chance they are holding positions that aliens must travel through, and as such end up killing more aliens. Which allows them to tech faster and do more search/destroy of enemy RT's...
I really think that competitive matches should try 7 marines v 6 aliens, that way both teams have the same number of "men" in the field... This would give marines an extra body which would be very useful in matches.
As I mentioned in that other thread.. These are MY experiences.. your mileage may vary... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zunni, neither you nor Forlorn has yet to refute my point. Thanks for giving the reasons why the marines have an easier time in larger games tho.
Skill has nothing to do with it, in a 10v10 game, the marines WILL get more out of their upgrades, the marines WILL get a stronger concentration of firepower, marines WILL get stuff faster due to their pooled res system. These will not be changed by 'skill', they are a part of the game design.
All Im asking is to get more guys in your squad. There isnt much point in balancing the game around 6v6 when the game is mostly played with much more players. Bring your player count up, and there will not be a need for the stupid 'balanced for scrim/balanced for pub' arguement.
I also find pub to be pretty balanced, but hey, I dont play on American pubs, and I know the gameplay is pretty different in the US and in Europe
Its an idea, remember if you beat aliens, that doesn't mean the team you are facing is equal to you, I find that most ties are alien vs alien. Marine vs marine ties are rare.
In a 6v6, marines can dominate early game with map control OR firepower, however once early fades arrive marines will tend to lose map control. The primary means of marines regaining map control once fades arrive is to either kill the fades or get jetpacks. Phase gates increase marine mobility, but that I find does not equate to map control with these numbers (it does help), since the marines will still have to leave the phase in groups or die to the fade. In small games like this I defend base until fades arrive (if I drop myself an HMG I'll defend against fades too), then I tend to keep someone guarding the vicinity of base but not in base itself. As it is now, a well focused alien attack on marine base is devastating because it will cause either a loss of res/time or instead a loss of map control through marine overreaction (beacon anyone?).
In a 7v7, which I have scrimmed once and pugged twice, was a little different. I dominated the early game with map control and outmanuvering like usual, however the fades came just slightly later than with a 6v6. What tended to happen was in situations where I would have been 1/1 when fades came I was 2/1, or if I was 2/1 I would be 2/1 with catpacks. Regardless, I was more teched and better equiped by the time the first fades hit the field. The result of this WITH the extra marine allowed me to push the fades back with less manpower while maintaining a lot more map control and thus more res/scouting. The simple conclusion, the extra marine allows me to tech faster because it allows me to hold more res. In addition, the extra alien causes the aliens to tech slower, which is a problem. This tech inbalance can very easily lead to a res imbalance and that will lead to aliens going down the slippery slope.
I have only played one serious game of 8v8 on tanith. I catpack/lmg rushed waste around 2:30 with 1/0 marines. 7 lmgs + 28 res in catpacks = very very hard to stop.
This is merely an explanation of my experience with different team sizes. Now, there is one other point I must make clear for those people who still want marines to have an extra player. The comm CAN fight, and when used properly the comm hopping out can crush a base rush. In fact, I tend to hop out nearly every game as comm, but that's just my style. I've even killed fades too, but that's only because I drop myself an hmg and get back into the cc beforehand.
Skill has nothing to do with it, in a 10v10 game, the marines WILL get more out of their upgrades, the marines WILL get a stronger concentration of firepower, marines WILL get stuff faster due to their pooled res system. These will not be changed by 'skill', they are a part of the game design.
All Im asking is to get more guys in your squad. There isnt much point in balancing the game around 6v6 when the game is mostly played with much more players. Bring your player count up, and there will not be a need for the stupid 'balanced for scrim/balanced for pub' arguement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'm not opposed to trying 7 v7 or 7v 6 (as I suggested) in a scrim..
I think much larger than that, and marines can cover too much of the map at once making the changes necessary much more damaging to smaller servers and thus swinging the balance so that people who enjoy smaller servers (7-12 people, of which I'm one) will be left out in the cold.
THere's an interesting thread going on in the Beta "Discussion" area (<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=66623' target='_blank'>will edit with Link</a>), that talks about the fact that balancing needs to be done for all servers... Not just the 12 v 12 or 6 v 6 or 3 v 3.. But every person needs to get something out of the game play experience at all these levels.
Putting the fact it would devistate clan play aside. From this point on ns has been balanced toward the notion that clans would be fielding six people. I can see how it would work in the interest of balance if pubs and clan games fielded the same number of people, but it would take an entire new version to make the needed changes which I dont think is feasible at this point.
btw: I think that marines and aliens are at a good par in clan play.
Make the games 8vs 8 this way rines should get a little better resource flow and should be able to match alien ugrades a bit more.
Or u could make the gme 7 rines vs 6 aliens as rines always mainly have 1 in the cc all the time. and this would may be blance it also
Just a few thoughts to improve clanning leauges.
P
Make the games 8vs 8 this way rines should get a little better resource flow and should be able to match alien ugrades a bit more.
Or u could make the gme 7 rines vs 6 aliens as rines always mainly have 1 in the cc all the time. and this would may be blance it also
Just a few thoughts <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not everyone agree's marines are at a disadvantage. I for one dont believe the marines need the boost.
I look at 6vs6 games and consider them barely playable.. hardly fun.
Guess what, I'm not interested in joining a group where what we concentrate on is something that's barely fun.
You start talking bigger clans, I start getting more interested.
As it was meantioned before Aliens don't have to push forward all the time. I've seen Marines dominate games on ns_veil in early game, but once the Fades showed up the tides turned. Marines had to invest all their res in fighting the Fades (weapons, medpacks) and lost more and more of the map every second. You simply cannot argue the 50res = 1 Fade = 5 Shotguns, because if you want to concetrate your fire your Marines are in one place.. it's almost like your team then only has ONE player with a lot of firepower. The Aliens however still have some Skulks and Gorges roaming the map taking down your RTs. Also a good Fade (or most likely a team of two Fades) with carapace can keep a Marines squad busy with hit and run attacks and take out the Marines one after the other.
I guess the easiest thing to try would be to either raise Fade cost by 5, lower the research time or cost of the first Armor/Weapon upgrade (just the first one so Marines are prepared better for mid-game and still have to work for a good end-game) or lower Alien's r4k from 1-3 to 1-2 (or 0-2) so that Marines still have a little chance even if their squads get ambushed early on (basically delaying time time mark Fades first appear)
"Simply" making scrims 7vs7 or 8vs8 would not be practical... as a few others already noted some clans might get serious problems having enough players ready at the same time to play a scrim. We often enough have problems having 6 players... 8 players would be just too much to play any scrim at all.
just my 2 cent
/Hyper
But in 6v6, I feel like my actions actually matter and that it places more responsibility on me. It's more stressful, but at the same time a lot more fun. That's why I clan I guess.
So really, even if games were balanced no matter the teamsize, I'm not sure I'd want to see clan games go bigger. A moderately small game of 6v6 means that you have enough players to do varied things, yet at the same time it falls down to more skill.
Honestly, I think people who don't like clan play just don't like the fact that 6v6 games will really expose how good/poor of a player they are.
In these two maps, only, I'd think would imbalance the Marines.
The most balance map I see at the moment is ns_origin. It is the best map in the game --> IMHO.
Why not the clans adapt to the game?
Is it so hard to conceive that a multiplayer game MIGHT be better played with more players on each team? If people don't want to play that way then that is THEIR choice, don't force the game to change because they refuse to.
We're made a lot of sacrifices in this game for the sake of clan play, and all we've gotten for it is a game that SUCKS to play on as aliens. Whether or not it is balanced means nothing because the fun just is NOT there.
So please stop trying to destroy public play and instead adapt to the game. If veterans are the 'skilled players' that they make themseleves out to be, that shouldn't be a problem at all.
NS is dying week by week and all that will be left is the clan games if things stay as they are. (don't believe me? the stats speak for themselves - total user numbers during peak hours are DOWN from last month, which were DOWN from the month before and the month before that. December was the best month for NS based on my personal observations of total servers/players playing at various times - it's been downhill since then.)
So yeah, keep cramming the clan objectives down the throats of NS players.
Pretty soon you won't have to worry about large game since there won't be enough players interested to HAVE a large game. Enjoy.
Regards,
Savant
Wait wait. feeling like an RTS is a BAD thing?!
Dude. The original designs of NS calls for marines that dont vary in 'skill'. I dont give a lark how 'skillful' the game makes you feel. 'Individual skill' is supposed to play a very small role in the marine side.
Dont believe me? Go read up on it. Why doesnt the marine guns have any recoil? Why is spread generally minimal? Why was bunnyhopping removed?
NS does not aim to make you feel 'skillful'.
Thanks for the semi-veiled insult there, Forlorn.
I might argue that people who don't like larger games just don't like the fact that it exposes what a poor team-player they really are.
At any rate, it seems we differ in what we think is important about NS. What attracted me to NS is that it's a team game, and I get to be a team player. This is why I really like the gorge.
As is increasingly apparant, you really don't give two craps about the team aspect, and prefer everything to be all about your individual skill. (Which is why you've mentioned the gorge as not being fun). That's fine and dandy, but please don't try to take away one of the very few solidly team-oriented FPS games out there simply because you prefer to be the star. There are plenty of games out there where you can do that.
Why not go play them instead?
He does not however mention that while 10v10 is an extremely bad number, 8v8 or 7v7 can be closer to perfect than 6v6 for current game balance. Of course he's naturally predisposed to not consider that too closely - as it would involve re-learning quite a few things about whats required to win a game and shift the balance of power a bit.
But I do believe if marine wins are truely too rare, just one extra guy for both sides can alleviate this. First, theres a row of small advantages to it - efficiency boost for upgrades, stacking of firepower et cetera. But the main advantage comes in the paired nature of marines - a lone marine has significant weakness, but a group of two will even under bad circumcstances usually break even loss/kill wise and be able to move ahead through the map. More than 3 marines in one spot is usually too crowded for many maps, and its hard to organize a form where you don't get in eachothers way regardless of how chaotic the situation becomes.
So in short, 6v6 means marines have 2 effective groups. The last lone rambo or 3rd man in one group is nifty, but does not help as much as a 3rd pair would.
And on the Alien side, it slows res down a tad bit, making it NOT instaloose if aliums get over 2 RTs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I might argue that people who don't like larger games just don't like the fact that it exposes what a poor team-player they really are.
At any rate, it seems we differ in what we think is important about NS. What attracted me to NS is that it's a team game, and I get to be a team player. This is why I really like the gorge.
As is increasingly apparant, you really don't give two craps about the team aspect, and prefer everything to be all about your individual skill. (Which is why you've mentioned the gorge as not being fun). That's fine and dandy, but please don't try to take away one of the very few solidly team-oriented FPS games out there simply because you prefer to be the star. There are plenty of games out there where you can do that.
Why not go play them instead?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHY DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO MAKE ME AGREE WITH FORLORN?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->? DAMN YOU ****!
So anyway to start with
1) I don't think he was trying to veil it.
2)You HAVE to have just as much if not MORE teamwork in 6v6
3)Forlorn said he felt more important because of that he didn't say this is why and only why it should be 6v6. Besides what Forlorn said was just a simple fact the smaller the game the more important individuals become. HOWEVER 6v6 requires as I said already TEAMWORK.
4.Where did that become increasingly apparent?? He likes the individual stuff to good for him that doesn't mean he doesn't like teamwork.
5. Among other things NS IS AN FPS ORIENTED GAME. FPS/RTS TEAMWORK AND FPS oriented so your view would be just as skewed as his no?
Anyway the bottom line is this. To fairly compete the game has to be 6v6 or maybe 7v7 thats the way the game is currently balanced. Its pretty damn simple.
This has nothign to do with getting people togethor for the delta clans. Every single one of them could get 10 at every match by simply recruiting a few more. Its not an issue of RTS vs FPS. Its not me just being a ****. THE GAME IS BALANCED ONLY FOR 6v6 and 7v7. THAT IS WHY WE PLAY 6v6.
Oh and the reasons for not wanting 7v7 or at least my reasons are pretty simply.
A game goes like this between two equal teams.
First 3-4 mins. Rines dominate take what they want and burn the rest down. Aliens try to hold 2-3 nodes generally they lose at least one. The marines have a small window to win right here.
Minutes 4-10. Aliens will generally put up 2nd hive have 2 fades and maybe a lerk. As I said if the two teams are equal the aliens will dominate this time. If they can lock the marines in base the game is over.
10+ If the rines have nodes they will have upgs by now and this is where the game can get unpredictable. Ninja pg? JPs? HA? vs Onos? 4 fades? Don't get me wrong though the marines shouldn't have nodes by this 70 percent of the time.
15+ If the marines have held nodes and the aliens are still at 2 hives the game should be over. They should have enough upgs to seige pg HA train whatever the **** they want. gg
So my conclusion being each team goes through phases where it can control the game and potentially end it. Adding a 7th player would increase whichever teams time it is during this periods advantage making it more unbalanced.
So my prediction would be that you would see alot more very early rine wins with 7 players.
If they didn't utterly dominate early then pretty much gg the aliens should walk over them before 10 mins is up and game over.
If some miracle happens and marines have nodes after 10 mins then they are still at a disadvantage but its much closer.
15 mins+ still rine nodes Marines should win.
I'm sure alot of people would agree with me, it's just strat reassessment - and a few people are talking about lack-of-teamwork ( 10v10 ) - that doesn't come down to the game - but how people play it.
There is a reason people [ on public servers ] tend to go off by themselves. And those reasons are understood when you see the skill in clan matches, the gunners, with the exception of the commander to an extent, use public servers as the individual whoring arena. This is where the gunners skill is concieved and I think we should all respect that this isn't ideal in reference to teamwork, but ideal for other people as it is fun and skill enhancing.
Thanks for the semi-veiled insult there, Forlorn.
I might argue that people who don't like larger games just don't like the fact that it exposes what a poor team-player they really are.
At any rate, it seems we differ in what we think is important about NS. What attracted me to NS is that it's a team game, and I get to be a team player. This is why I really like the gorge.
As is increasingly apparant, you really don't give two craps about the team aspect, and prefer everything to be all about your individual skill. (Which is why you've mentioned the gorge as not being fun). That's fine and dandy, but please don't try to take away one of the very few solidly team-oriented FPS games out there simply because you prefer to be the star. There are plenty of games out there where you can do that.
Why not go play them instead? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though other's have already pointed it out, I'll just state it along with them in agreement that smaller games take much much more teamwork to play effectively.
Larger games do not require coordination because it's not hard to stumble across a teammate.
Because larger games require less teamwork, and less skill, larger games are the perfect enviroments for pub players.
Large games are fun for the mass-battle type feel, but it wears off and ultimately to me large games of NS feel like nerfed games of NS.
Not stumbling across teammates = teamwork & coordination?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not stumbling across teammates = teamwork & coordination?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it means you actually have to PLAN OUT, and COORDINATE your movements since you can't randomally run around the map and find another person.