Differentiating height

Seraphic8X · October 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">In commander mode</div>I have a question, say there is a room with multiple levels... say an elevated catwalk running across the center of the room. What if the commander wants to build something directly BELOW this catwalk? How would the game know you want to place it on the catwalk or the floor below it?

Is it like Final Fantasy Tactics where if you hold the cursor over that area for a period of time it will switch between the levels?

Vyvn · October 2002

I'm sure someone will post before me, but...

The short answer: the game doesn't. That's why none of the official maps have level-over-level areas. Sure, there are plenty of catwalks, but the commander can usually build under these by simply changing his perspective by scrolling to one side.

Seraphic8X · October 2002

Ah. So I bet futuristic city"ish" levels would be out of the question then.

Vyvn · October 2002

Well, not necessarily. There can be plenty of height difference in the levels, as long as they don't cross each other. Keeping in mind, of course, that lower areas will appear farther away to the commander.

Seraphic8X · October 2002

What I meant was have buildings with floors stacked on top of each other - that obviously wouldn't work.

Kind of reminds me of my Doom map editing days where you couldn't have floors atop floors. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Gwahir · October 2002

that's right. It's a big no no in mapping purely because of command mode. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't have an alien crawlspace below the floor. ala the space below the grating in aliens.

ViPr · October 2002

hmm this is a big bummer.

Gwahir · October 2002

how so? there aren't many maps out there (in my experience) that contain entire floors over each other, maybe a small criss-corss but that's about it.

Rob · October 2002

Yeah, but there's just no easy way around it, save rewriting the entire engine.

Jops · October 2002

The pts seem to be having fun with it, thats good enough for me.

KungFuSquirrel · October 2002

Actually, level over level -is- quite possible. ns_hera actually has a room with some elevated catwalks running around and it works fine.

The thing to keep in mind is parallax -- it's not a two dimensional top-down image. As the commander moves, different locations will become blocked by any level over level architecture. As long as you can get complete line of sight under the object (catwalk, platform, whatever) from one or either side, it's fine.

Gwahir · October 2002

our dear friend paralax, proved without a doubt that we orbit the sun.

coil · October 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Gwahir @ Oct. 23 2002,22:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">our dear friend paralax, proved without a doubt that we orbit the sun.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
LIES!

D_6969 · October 2002

What are you talking? Plenty of maps have whole areas on top of each other. 2Fort and Well are a few TFC examples. In Cs there is Militia, Italy, and even Tundra has them. S&I has them all over the place. Multi-Levels are usually for an indoor office or house enviornment though. You could make a city and have the top be an un-alienized area (for the most part) and then have a tunnel that goes down and that would be the Alien Hive. Areas where alien's base is shouldn't matter if it has multilevels or not. I mean yeah it'll block the commanders view of it and he can't build there. But would a commander really be able to send in supplies or reach his men when they are deep in an alien colony? Aliens don't have a commander anyway so it doesn't matter to them. If anyone wants to make a map like that go for it, I would but I'm too lazy too map nowadays. Especially for a mod I haven't even gotten to play yet.

KungFuSquirrel · October 2002

Err.. Nevermind. Taken out of context, since the previous post was most likely in response to a post on the first page. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Phoenix1 · October 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (D_6969 @ Oct. 23 2002,23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What are you talking? Plenty of maps have whole areas on top of each other. 2Fort and Well are a few TFC examples. In Cs there is Militia, Italy, and even Tundra has them. S&I has them all over the place. Multi-Levels are usually for an indoor office or house enviornment though. You could make a city and have the top be an un-alienized area (for the most part) and then have a tunnel that goes down and that would be the Alien Hive. Areas where alien's base is shouldn't matter if it has multilevels or not. I mean yeah it'll block the commanders view of it and he can't build there. But would a commander really be able to send in supplies or reach his men when they are deep in an alien colony? Aliens don't have a commander anyway so it doesn't matter to them. If anyone wants to make a map like that go for it, I would but I'm too lazy too map nowadays. Especially for a mod I haven't even gotten to play yet.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ok D I realize you've done plenty of mapping (not being sarcastic) but its not quite that simple I mean you HAVE to be able to build in the Hive rooms. You move in kill the thing then set up turrets and the like so nothing comes back and builds it all, all over again. You need to be able to build to secure the area or else the game would be VERY hard for marines as they would have to permenantly station marines there. And D would you want to sit there the whole game being a human senty gun?

Inexorable · October 2002

It does kind of open up an interesting gameplay wrinkle though. You could include certain areas that suffer from "static". But a big black box over a hallway, and suddenly any marines going through are cut off from their commander for the duration of the trip. You could even do neat things like having it disappear and reappear randomly.

coil · October 2002

It was suggested in another thread, and may be worth exploring in the future. However, I'm pretty confident that multi-level maps are not going to happen in NS. As previously stated, marines *must* be able to build within hive rooms - either to keep the aliens from taking the hive, or to relocate if their main base is in danger of falling.

It should be noted, however, that if Alien vs. Alien playmode is included in Version 2, maps for this game type would have no commander... and, therefore, no multi-level restrictions. Nice.

Necro · October 2002

i'd like to have a pt or dev answer this! <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Greedo · October 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Necro- @ Oct. 24 2002,01:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i'd like to have a pt or dev answer this! <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
...
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<i>Anyways...</i> Once you start playing, you won't really care that there's no second floor, or underground tunnel. Seriously, the thought won't even cross your mind (unless your some kind of psycho freak).

Necro · October 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Greedo386 @ Oct. 24 2002,05:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Necro- @ Oct. 24 2002,01:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i'd like to have a pt or dev answer this! <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
...
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<i>Anyways...</i> Once you start playing, you won't really care that there's no second floor, or underground tunnel. Seriously, the thought won't even cross your mind (unless your some kind of psycho freak).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
ehh! i was at skewl and didn't see there was more than 1 page :'(

my bad

ViPr · October 2002

this is seriously spoiling my mood. i don't want 2d type levels like doom. yah i know it isn't exactly just 2d but still. i think the commander mode is gonna have to be completely redesigned because this is gonna kill this mod. all games in future will be FPSRTS but they are gonna make sure they don't have this problem. this is a MAJOR strike against NS.

Daxx · October 2002

Guh?

Name for me ONE RTS that is mutli-level. One.

Aside from that fact, the maps I've played (NSTR), you don't notice this at all. So there arn't any apartment buildings or such. This dosn't mean that the entire map is one level height. There are many, many different ways of simulating multiplex levels in a no-conflicting way.

Elevators.
Ramps.
Stairs.
Catwalks.
Vents.
Yada yada.

Sure it's a limitation, but its also a limitation of the inheriant nature of RTS games. And from what I've seen, its not a limitation you notice even in the most slightest of ways.

Fam · October 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (ViPr @ Oct. 24 2002,12:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this is seriously spoiling my mood. i don't want 2d type levels like doom. yah i know it isn't exactly just 2d but still. i think the commander mode is gonna have to be completely redesigned because this is gonna kill this mod. all games in future will be FPSRTS but they are gonna make sure they don't have this problem. this is a MAJOR strike against NS.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Don't play it then. Go design your own mod. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Necro · October 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Fam @ Oct. 24 2002,09:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (ViPr @ Oct. 24 2002,12:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this is seriously spoiling my mood. i don't want 2d type levels like doom. yah i know it isn't exactly just 2d but still. i think the commander mode is gonna have to be completely redesigned because this is gonna kill this mod. all games in future will be FPSRTS but they are gonna make sure they don't have this problem. this is a MAJOR strike against NS.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Don't play it then. Go design your own mod. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
0WNED. with a nice big bold <b>0</b>

personally if the pt's and devs say its not a problem i believe them...plus we'll find out ina few weeks <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Merkaba · October 2002

Oh please, how pathetic. Maybe if you'd stop <i>thinking</i> 2-dimensionally, you'd realise that it's not actually that big a deal. Speaking as an official NS mapper and the person who worked closely with Flayra to design the new commander mode, and also having worked on NS maps for the past year, it is my rather authoratitive opinion that levels over levels are <b>not required</b> at all to make NS enjoyable. In fact, I fully believe they would <i>hinder</i> NS's design if we spent time trying to implement levels over levels.

Also, I would highly suggest people refrain from commenting on the lack of levels over levels until they play the maps first hand. The levels feel anything BUT 2D. All it requires is a bit of skill, thought, and space perception to make a level feel fully three-dimensional.

I'm sorry to come over a bit harsh here, but I can't be having with these hollow comments based soley on speculation, with no first hand experience.

Daxx · October 2002

<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Necro- @ Oct. 24 2002,10<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>1)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0WNED. with a nice big bold <b>0</b></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Sorry Necro, I think that has to go to Merkaba now <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

I belive the expression "Righteous Rage" comes to mind.

ViPr · October 2002

why can't the commander have freelook? his view can fly through the levels going through walls and everything just like the freelook in other games like CS except that it has inertia so the more he presses the faster he can go, and entities don't dissapear when he goes into the void.

DOOManiac · October 2002

because then it wouldn't be a standard rts. duh. have you never played starcraft/warcraft/command&conquer/red alert/etc. ? they are all overhead views of the battlefield. really that's the best tactical vantagepoint most of the time anyway. In NS there's nothing you can't see from commander mode that you could on the ground...

ViPr · October 2002

it wouldn't be a standard rts then? isn't that the point? NS is supposed to be better than an RTS and better than an FPS.

anyway, is what i said technically possible?

MonsieurEvil · October 2002

Son, you need to learn when to cut your losses. Have you not yet noticed that most people here are ready to throttle you? Why don't you just let this topic cool off and die...

Differentiating height

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