We may not see them very often anymore, but most people agree (I think) that the most fun games are the games where the Alien Hive count goes from 2 to 3 to 2 several times, the Res count sits at about 4 to 5 most of the game, and large numbers of JP rushes and HA trains and Onos/Fade attacks are repulsed and counterattacks mounted, seige bases are built, used, and destroyed, and map points change hands over and over again.
Persistant Alien Upgrades would remove the balance for these already rare games. 3-Hive aliens should be slightly more powerful than top-tech Marines, assuming they have enough res to take advantage of their tech, and the inability to return to fighting 2-Hive aliens would mean Marines would be fighting a losing battle, and have nothing to aim for except res. That 3rd Hive that is going up for the 3rd time needs to still be a valuable target, even if you know you dont have the ability to follow up the attack by taking out Hives 2 and 1.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Feb 12 2004, 04:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 12 2004, 04:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We may not see them very often anymore, but most people agree (I think) that the most fun games are the games where the Alien Hive count goes from 2 to 3 to 2 several times, the Res count sits at about 4 to 5 most of the game, and large numbers of JP rushes and HA trains and Onos/Fade attacks are repulsed and counterattacks mounted, seige bases are built, used, and destroyed, and map points change hands over and over again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I think those types of games suck.
You don't like those Epic games? I'm not talking games where its obvious from 5 or even 10 minutes in who is going to win, and it just takes a while to prove it. I'm talking the games where you never really know who is going to win until they finally do win. The epic games people come and talk about on the boards afterwards, that take an hour, maybe two, but all of that time is spent actually fighting over ground and hives, not just defending a turtle base. You really don't like them?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Feb 12 2004, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 12 2004, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't like those Epic games? I'm not talking games where its obvious from 5 or even 10 minutes in who is going to win, and it just takes a while to prove it. I'm talking the games where you never really know who is going to win until they finally do win. The epic games people come and talk about on the boards afterwards, that take an hour, maybe two, but all of that time is spent actually fighting over ground and hives, not just defending a turtle base. You really don't like them? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Those 'epic' games most of the forum masses talk about are the biggest joke ever for the most part.
I've played a lot of NS, and let me tell you, those 'epic' games are actually just this:
- A crappy team vs. a half-crappy team, except the crappy team has a good player on it, the half-crappy team can't overcome the good player, and the rest of the crappy team is too stupid to finish the game
- Stupid Comms
- Unorganized aliens
The potential to win is always there, people are just can't figure out what to do next and that's why you get 'epic' games.
Which brings me back to my original point, and that is 'epic' games are total jokes in almost every form imaginable.
And I'm almost 100% sure Flayra wanted to get rid of the 'epic' games, because the 'epic' games were really just fluff due to some gameplay problems.
I'm sorry you feel that way...I always felt (and still do) that the epic games were contests between two very closely matched teams, and were the pinnacle of NS enjoyment and adrenaline.
The problem is that MOST of the time the long games are overly long for no point. When that happens people start leaving and the game becomes unbalanced.
While a back and forth battle is nice occasionally, it should be a back and forth MID game, not a back and forth END game. When the end game is reached the game should terminate in a direct manner and be done with.
Persistent alien weapons and upgrades would likely cause MORE of these back and forth mid-game battles since both teams would have similar strengths. Without it the aliens are quickly overwehelmed and you end up with a lopsided battle.
When we reach the END game the game should END not go on forever. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Savant I actually like what you are proposing in the way of keeping upgrades. It does retain some skulk effectiveness in the fact that a one time purchase of upgrades would allow it a little more strength and yet not make it feel like a lifeform that will end up costing more res in the long run.
I believe the end game fights would be more competitive in the fact that skulks will become slightly more useful than they currently are in the situation, plus they wont be so negatively geared in the fact that purchasing upgrades for a lifeform that already has a minimal chance of surviving won't mean it will be a waste.
This will lead to competetive fights with upper tech rines versus a team of higher lifeforms. As skulks wont be wasting res in the late game for minimal upg benefits they can get a higher lifeform faster to remain competetive.
I personally feel the gestation time for upgrades is so minutely influential that removing it I dont feel would remove alot of the current balance.
It was mentioned that as aliens dont lose upgrades they will become less res conscious as they dont recieve any punishments from having to respawn eg: upg cost. I disagree it would add alot more atmosphere for suicidal aliens that dont have to be so wary of upg res loss being so punishing. Plus more suicidal aliens also means more RFK for rines which is a punishment for aliens anyway. And any alien in the respawn queue is an alien out of the battlefield therefore being a punishment anyway. More aliens being suicidal leads to more aliens in the respawn queue so it may balance itself anyway??
As for keeping weapons as hives fall im not too sure, as hive importance may be reduced too much after second hive is achieved? I dont know whether having a faster spawn queue and the ability to build a certain type of chamber are strong enough to will the aliens to have a need for the second hive after it has been achieved once? Perhaps the need for 3rd hive weapons will propel the aliens to keep fighting for another hive.
But then you face the problem of enforced relocations, and managing to kill 2 hives out of 3 and realising that aliens really havent lost that much of an advantage in the short term?
Perhaps at least retaining the armour bonus hives create would be a smaller and easier and perhaps less effective solution. It is a weak benefit but a benefit none the less?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two things. One, your attitude is not what we want in this forum. We don't need posts that say "if you don't like don't play." Pleease read the forum rules for more information. Two, perhaps you should read my messages before you reply. You missed my point and you missed the proper spelling of my name. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I read your messages, and I didnt tell you not to play, i told you to play COMBAT, which seems to suit your style of keeping upgrades! Stop asuming it was supposed to be insulting!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should he play Combat if the game he prefers is a balanced NS with strategy, rather than a simple game that has an idea that is basically similar in looks to something he is suggesting. The idea of incorporating it into NS may balance the game far better, yet because it is in Combat he cant suggest it?
Its like saying to a master chess player go play draughts because he suggested pawns should jump over other pawns for more strategy.
There are other more polite ways that would cause less confusion to all parties, if you stated your mind more clearly and less demanding unlike your previous example "i told you to play COMBAT."
I would like upgrades to be retained, or the cost lowered to 1...
With an additional cost if you want to change upgrades (of course) and having the ability to change upgrades as a high lvl lifeorm will give aliens more ways to adapt / experiment...
A gorge could go from a celerity lone builder, to getting adrenaline when assaulting a rine base to help healing, or if someone accidentaly got a silence onos by mistake, they can change easily...
I've actually offered an additional suggestion on this topic, and that has been upgrade costs should scale to the alien lifeform.
Upgrades: Skulk: free Gorge: 2 per upgrade (as it is now) Lerk: 3 per upgrade Fade: 4 per upgrade Onos: 5 per upgrade
This may be a better solution since it does take into account that higher level evolutions get MUCH more from an upgrade than a lower level evolution does.
Since this wouldn't make the aliens any stronger than they are now, I can't see any balance issues that would come into play.
I think I'm gonna give a name to this philosophy, the "Zerg Syndrome". It seems like more and more people want to turn the aliens into these crazy rushing zergs, that just pile on the marine team over and over and over and over again.
That's not what this game is designed to be, or at least not in my opinion. You shouldn't have a team full of skulks at 10 minutes into the game. You should have a few fades and maybe an onos as your front-line assault, a few gorges for nodes/lame, and maybe a couple skulks for node-killing, surprise attacks etc. It's called "strategy". If you go fade, rush out and die, you deserve to lose your fade and have to save up the cash to get a new one. You shouldn't be rewarded for just zerg rushing like a maniac and dieing every 3.5 seconds.
The alien team has always required more teamwork, more strategy and more work than the marine team. At one point, the manual used to advise new players to go to the marine team, becuase the alien team was more difficult to play. It should stay that way.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 16 2004, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 16 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Upgrades: Skulk: free Gorge: 2 per upgrade (as it is now) Lerk: 3 per upgrade Fade: 4 per upgrade Onos: 5 per upgrade <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never seen this idea before from you. This is a <b>great</b> idea, because as it is right now getting upgrades for a skulk is only for super specialized situations, as right now skulks are a suicidal class that save for bigger ones.
The tradeoff to getting upgrades with your system is that it would cost <b>time</b> to get these upgrades, which may not be something you always have.
Still, if Flay is totally opposed to the idea of free upgrades, then 1 res for skulk upgrades make a lot of sense to me.
Also, raising 5 per upgrade for onos make it so that it would cost a minimum of 80 res to have a basic onos, and 90 for a maximum effectiveness onos, which helps to delay them some... but without actually increasing their base cost. So now skulks have a reason as to why they may want to horde their res beyond 75, so that they can get upgrades faster, or they may want to evolve as soon as possible and just play super conservative or on defense or something.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 16 2004, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 16 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've actually offered an additional suggestion on this topic, and that has been upgrade costs should scale to the alien lifeform.
Upgrades: Skulk: free Gorge: 2 per upgrade (as it is now) Lerk: 3 per upgrade Fade: 4 per upgrade Onos: 5 per upgrade
This may be a better solution since it does take into account that higher level evolutions get MUCH more from an upgrade than a lower level evolution does.
Since this wouldn't make the aliens any stronger than they are now, I can't see any balance issues that would come into play.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> great concept i guess. it gives skulks the possibility to attain upgrades in ns games without a major drawback and thus it will make more fun to play as an alien. more used upgrades in classic = more variety/fun
I'd say make skulk upgrades cost one just so you don't have focus skulks and cloaking skulks and silence skulks and cara skulks running around unleashed, but still making it better than the way it is now.
Besides, 106 res for an onos seems a lot cheaper than 6 res for a skulk....
P.S. Variable cost of upgrades, thumbs up. Don't know about you but I'd get my upgrades before evolving to w/e lifeform. That way it'd be cheaper. Unless you added the difference in upgrade prices to the cost of the lifeform, eg:
Skulk upgrade costs 1 Onos upgrade costs 5
Skulk with no upgrades pays 75 to go onos Skulk with 3 upgrades pays 87 to go onos (3x4 res difference)
Actually the idea would be when you evolve to a higher lifeform you start fresh with no upgrades. So any upgrades you have as skulk are removed when you evolve upwards.
Comments
Persistant Alien Upgrades would remove the balance for these already rare games. 3-Hive aliens should be slightly more powerful than top-tech Marines, assuming they have enough res to take advantage of their tech, and the inability to return to fighting 2-Hive aliens would mean Marines would be fighting a losing battle, and have nothing to aim for except res. That 3rd Hive that is going up for the 3rd time needs to still be a valuable target, even if you know you dont have the ability to follow up the attack by taking out Hives 2 and 1.
Personally I think those types of games suck.
Those 'epic' games most of the forum masses talk about are the biggest joke ever for the most part.
I've played a lot of NS, and let me tell you, those 'epic' games are actually just this:
- A crappy team vs. a half-crappy team, except the crappy team has a good player on it, the half-crappy team can't overcome the good player, and the rest of the crappy team is too stupid to finish the game
- Stupid Comms
- Unorganized aliens
The potential to win is always there, people are just can't figure out what to do next and that's why you get 'epic' games.
Which brings me back to my original point, and that is 'epic' games are total jokes in almost every form imaginable.
And I'm almost 100% sure Flayra wanted to get rid of the 'epic' games, because the 'epic' games were really just fluff due to some gameplay problems.
While a back and forth battle is nice occasionally, it should be a back and forth MID game, not a back and forth END game. When the end game is reached the game should terminate in a direct manner and be done with.
Persistent alien weapons and upgrades would likely cause MORE of these back and forth mid-game battles since both teams would have similar strengths. Without it the aliens are quickly overwehelmed and you end up with a lopsided battle.
When we reach the END game the game should END not go on forever. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
It does retain some skulk effectiveness in the fact that a one time purchase of upgrades would allow it a little more strength and yet not make it feel like a lifeform that will end up costing more res in the long run.
I believe the end game fights would be more competitive in the fact that skulks will become slightly more useful than they currently are in the situation, plus they wont be so negatively geared in the fact that purchasing upgrades for a lifeform that already has a minimal chance of surviving won't mean it will be a waste.
This will lead to competetive fights with upper tech rines versus a team of higher lifeforms. As skulks wont be wasting res in the late game for minimal upg benefits they can get a higher lifeform faster to remain competetive.
I personally feel the gestation time for upgrades is so minutely influential that removing it I dont feel would remove alot of the current balance.
It was mentioned that as aliens dont lose upgrades they will become less res conscious as they dont recieve any punishments from having to respawn eg: upg cost.
I disagree it would add alot more atmosphere for suicidal aliens that dont have to be so wary of upg res loss being so punishing.
Plus more suicidal aliens also means more RFK for rines which is a punishment for aliens anyway.
And any alien in the respawn queue is an alien out of the battlefield therefore being a punishment anyway.
More aliens being suicidal leads to more aliens in the respawn queue so it may balance itself anyway??
As for keeping weapons as hives fall im not too sure, as hive importance may be reduced too much after second hive is achieved? I dont know whether having a faster spawn queue and the ability to build a certain type of chamber are strong enough to will the aliens to have a need for the second hive after it has been achieved once? Perhaps the need for 3rd hive weapons will propel the aliens to keep fighting for another hive.
But then you face the problem of enforced relocations, and managing to kill 2 hives out of 3 and realising that aliens really havent lost that much of an advantage in the short term?
Perhaps at least retaining the armour bonus hives create would be a smaller and easier and perhaps less effective solution. It is a weak benefit but a benefit none the less?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two things. One, your attitude is not what we want in this forum. We don't need posts that say "if you don't like don't play." Pleease read the forum rules for more information. Two, perhaps you should read my messages before you reply. You missed my point and you missed the proper spelling of my name. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read your messages, and I didnt tell you not to play, i told you to play COMBAT, which seems to suit your style of keeping upgrades! Stop asuming it was supposed to be insulting!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should he play Combat if the game he prefers is a balanced NS with strategy, rather than a simple game that has an idea that is basically similar in looks to something he is suggesting.
The idea of incorporating it into NS may balance the game far better, yet because it is in Combat he cant suggest it?
Its like saying to a master chess player go play draughts because he suggested pawns should jump over other pawns for more strategy.
There are other more polite ways that would cause less confusion to all parties, if you stated your mind more clearly and less demanding unlike your previous example "i told you to play COMBAT."
Sorry that bit really irked me for some reason.
- RD
With an additional cost if you want to change upgrades (of course) and having the ability to change upgrades as a high lvl lifeorm will give aliens more ways to adapt / experiment...
A gorge could go from a celerity lone builder, to getting adrenaline when assaulting a rine base to help healing, or if someone accidentaly got a silence onos by mistake, they can change easily...
Upgrades:
Skulk: free
Gorge: 2 per upgrade (as it is now)
Lerk: 3 per upgrade
Fade: 4 per upgrade
Onos: 5 per upgrade
This may be a better solution since it does take into account that higher level evolutions get MUCH more from an upgrade than a lower level evolution does.
Since this wouldn't make the aliens any stronger than they are now, I can't see any balance issues that would come into play.
Regards,
Savant
That's not what this game is designed to be, or at least not in my opinion. You shouldn't have a team full of skulks at 10 minutes into the game. You should have a few fades and maybe an onos as your front-line assault, a few gorges for nodes/lame, and maybe a couple skulks for node-killing, surprise attacks etc. It's called "strategy". If you go fade, rush out and die, you deserve to lose your fade and have to save up the cash to get a new one. You shouldn't be rewarded for just zerg rushing like a maniac and dieing every 3.5 seconds.
The alien team has always required more teamwork, more strategy and more work than the marine team. At one point, the manual used to advise new players to go to the marine team, becuase the alien team was more difficult to play. It should stay that way.
Skulk: free
Gorge: 2 per upgrade (as it is now)
Lerk: 3 per upgrade
Fade: 4 per upgrade
Onos: 5 per upgrade <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never seen this idea before from you. This is a <b>great</b> idea, because as it is right now getting upgrades for a skulk is only for super specialized situations, as right now skulks are a suicidal class that save for bigger ones.
The tradeoff to getting upgrades with your system is that it would cost <b>time</b> to get these upgrades, which may not be something you always have.
Still, if Flay is totally opposed to the idea of free upgrades, then 1 res for skulk upgrades make a lot of sense to me.
Also, raising 5 per upgrade for onos make it so that it would cost a minimum of 80 res to have a basic onos, and 90 for a maximum effectiveness onos, which helps to delay them some... but without actually increasing their base cost. So now skulks have a reason as to why they may want to horde their res beyond 75, so that they can get upgrades faster, or they may want to evolve as soon as possible and just play super conservative or on defense or something.
A++
Upgrades:
Skulk: free
Gorge: 2 per upgrade (as it is now)
Lerk: 3 per upgrade
Fade: 4 per upgrade
Onos: 5 per upgrade
This may be a better solution since it does take into account that higher level evolutions get MUCH more from an upgrade than a lower level evolution does.
Since this wouldn't make the aliens any stronger than they are now, I can't see any balance issues that would come into play.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
great concept i guess. it gives skulks the possibility to attain upgrades in ns games without a major drawback and thus it will make more fun to play as an alien. more used upgrades in classic = more variety/fun
thumbs up
Besides, 106 res for an onos seems a lot cheaper than 6 res for a skulk....
P.S. Variable cost of upgrades, thumbs up. Don't know about you but I'd get my upgrades before evolving to w/e lifeform. That way it'd be cheaper. Unless you added the difference in upgrade prices to the cost of the lifeform, eg:
Skulk upgrade costs 1
Onos upgrade costs 5
Skulk with no upgrades pays 75 to go onos
Skulk with 3 upgrades pays 87 to go onos (3x4 res difference)
Regards,
Savant