heh..what if e chamber is built somewhere that is unreachable and cloaked with sc... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you need an explanation why Firewater's idea isn't a good means to the end he's trying to realize, I'll offer one. Content -- they would probably have to redesign most if not all the NS maps, and they would have to model and animate an evolution chamber. I have a great idea for combat mode but I often reject the thought of mentioning it because it's simply not practical (or doesn't make an appealing suggestion) to redesign that much content.
It's simple: we need to keep hives for something. If you want to create a new evolution chamber to restrict upgrade chambers without eliminating the hive system for abilities, that would be more practical.
And Last., "intellectual daring"? That's not the terminology I would use. It's an idealistic idea that just won't happen. Definetly a fun concept to think about but not a practical suggestion that merits serious consideration. However, the issue he brings up with this suggestion IS something we need to take into serious consideration and I wouldn't mind using this thread to discuss it further.
What if there was no evolution chamber, say the hive would just get upgraded, like the armory does, that way the upgrade chamber system is unlocked, and the aliens can just focus on res. That would probably be a lot easier to code.
This is an excellent idea <b>IF</b> the upgraded abilities (umbra, leap, metabolize, stomp, xeno, etc) are left to the hives, which remain in a fixed location. The Upgrade Chamber would then only be used for unlocking extra chambers. Make the Upgrade Chamber 20-35 res, and the hive maybe 45-60 res. It would make for some very unique strats.
However, having the Upgrade Chamber unlock both additional evolution chambers AND upgraded abilities is a bad idea. As I understand it, the whole idea behind this in the first place is to promote more RTS like tactics, where you have to make split second decisions and outthink your opponent. This would cause the exact opposite to happen in many cases. Alien teams would simply plop two Upgrade Chambers down in their home hive, spam some OT's, and they'd have three hives worth of abilities and evolution chambers in one easy to defend, cozy corner of the map. Simply send some skulks and gorges out to pressure and capture res, and you'd be set. At the first sign of danger, pull everything you've got back home and fight tooth and nail for just one tiny corner of the map.
The way things are right now, with fixed hive locations, you must be quick and fluid in your strikes, and must have adequate scouting across the whole map to protect 2 (or 3) crucial locations such a great distance from each other. Marines can be quick and silent in their strikes on a hive if they use good timing and team work. If the aliens have all their eggs in one basket, it would be nearly impossible to sneak up on, and nearly impossible to attack. Instead of encouraging fluid, quick thinking tactics, you'd be rendering them mostly useless.
I remember way back in 1.04 scrim, [TE] vs [ReD]. We were on marines rushing ReD's second hive as they put it up, taking it down every time. The game was at a stale mate at this point, and was over an hour long. So ReD got tricky and put up 2 hives at the same time. We rushed one while the other built, and they ended up taking the round because of their smart thinking.
I also remember many occasions where we, as well as other clans, would quietly shuffle 4 shotgun marines off to a hive and take it down before the aliens knew what hit em. Or times when we would send 2 shotties at a hive to feign a rush, while someone else quietly slipped up a phase at the other hive. Strats like this, that require the quick thinking and coordination that you're after, would be useless when aliens simply turtle up one hive.
There's already too many Starcraft references in Natural Selection anyway, and implimenting such an idea really does take out a major part of the gameplay.
I like the idea of upgrading the Hive more than an "e chamber". Getting MCs before a second hive goes up would be useful. What if it was changed to where you could get another chamber as soon as the second hive is put up, while its building, wouldn't be that bad. NS changes too much as it is anyways, thats the only downside of this post.
<!--QuoteBegin-[JeMaL]Vinegar Ninja+Mar 10 2004, 01:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([JeMaL]Vinegar Ninja @ Mar 10 2004, 01:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lemur I love you man and this idea will NEVAR GO IN EVAR its just how flay works, we all know it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> who are you to judge what and how Flayra thinks? What if Flayra reads this topic and like what he reads? Firewater is a playtester, he would listen and value his opions on most topics on NS rather then a person walking into the forums to say OMG THIS SUXORZ REMOV IT NOWZORZ.
the purpose of the playtester is to try out the new build, offer feedback, give ideas on new improvements. I'd say he's doing his job.
Lemur is from the Lunixmonster channel, I went there to get insight from a pub players perspective, and I get slammed for it. I should have known better, I set my expectations way too high, which is my fault.
I just hope this thread stays on topic, and not get stuff posted that really doesn't argue either side. Please keep posting your thoughts on this idea, its only going to help, even if you think its silly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Change hive restrictions. You're concerned about versatility, from what I read. (the other concern being much less important) It would only require a simple change such as allowing multiple chamber types with one hive. For balance, you could limit some other element of the chambers to hives. For instance, the number of upgrades per chamber being limited by hives. (which would also consequently allow balancing between both modes of play easier) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea a bit more...
Allow multiple chambers to be built even with only one hive, but at 1 hive you get lvl 1 upgrades only, not matter how many you build. When the second hive goes up all upgrades go to lvl 2, and lvl 3 with the 3rd hive.
Now you have :
- Eliminated the the DMS scenerio - Allowed more flexibility with the Alien tech - Retained the need to secure the hive locations
Best of all it requires no map changes, adds no additional entities and theoretically should be easier to implement.
Probably require some tweaks regarding res cost and how much each level will grant (i.e. make it a large improvement from lvl 1 to lvl 2 and from lvl 2 to 3)
The evolution chamber would allow the construction of another chamber (DMS), and not the addition of slot 3/4 weapons. This would lenghten the life of skulks in the early game (allowing one to have silence, other cloaking, or focus; maybe having 2 at once: silence AND focus/ celerity AND regen). Skulks are very usefull when having multipule upgrades, or when the marine doesn't know what kinds of upgrades they are facing against.
The evolution chamber would give the bonuses of all the active chambers in the game. ie: having defense and movements, the evolution chamber posses the passive powers of the defense and movement chambers (healing, giving energy).
The evolution chamber is limited one to a hive.
While having movements, using the hive sends you to the evolution chamber. (i believe movements should do a little bit more then they do right now, seems like it's not enough to be equal with the others.).
Destroying the evolution chamber will cause you to loose the upgrades of the chamber that the evolution chamber provides (unless you have the correct number of hives to cover all of the upgrades, like normal). You cannot get those upgrades again unless you build another evolution chamber or a hive is built.
rough stats: 25 res, 3500 hp.
I think this would work well WITH the hives system, it offers more strategy at the beginning, providing aliens with more power (needed as a skulk). Only the hives would offer new attacks (slot3/4), respawn, and the more effective armor; that way the emphises is still on the hives, just that the hives is not as critical as once before.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Mar 9 2004, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Mar 9 2004, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the purpose of the playtester is to try out the new build, offer feedback, give ideas on new improvements. I'd say he's doing his job. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Notice '<i>give ideas on new improvements</i>'. This doesn't mean going and completely revamping the Kharaa tech tree, which would severely alter the game and change the way it is played.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grimm+Mar 10 2004, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grimm @ Mar 10 2004, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Mar 9 2004, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Mar 9 2004, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the purpose of the playtester is to try out the new build, offer feedback, give ideas on new improvements. I'd say he's doing his job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Notice '<i>give ideas on new improvements</i>'. This doesn't mean going and completely revamping the Kharaa tech tree, which would severely alter the game and change the way it is played. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because you believe one thing doesn't mean it applies to everything and everyone else. What if the idea sparks interest with the dev team and something similar to this is tested? I don't know who gave the idea for focus, but something like that changed the way people play. Now sensory is a viable option in an NS game. I think him giving absolutly horrable ideas again and again is MUCH better then him never giving any ideas.
Now please, either give him ideas on how to improve the idea, or get out. The dev team will decide whether it gets implemented or not, not you.
Let us drop the original idea and move on. No need to continue to bash it. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, please refrain from posting.
Moving on...
I'm going to assume the evolution chamber (any additional chamber) is out of the question. (I never really liked any of the suggestions using it anyway) What can the devs do easily to allow more versatility in Kharaa strategy and responsiveness with minimal damage to other gameplay elements?
One idea is to strip hive dependency for multiple chamber types. (simple coding and maybe some easy sprite changes) Some might not like this idea because it takes away the difficult build order choice and the adaptation strategies for the marines. However, D-M-S is so common for seemingly unavoidable reasons that build-orders won't be missed much. The limiting factor would be strictly res. 10res per chamber for three chamber types early game can get expensive. We could see build orders become more complex, such as: 2M-2D-1S-1D-1M-2S.
One variation on this idea would be to limit the number of upgrades you could get per hive. (ie. one hive, 3 of each chamber, you can only have one of the nine upgrades)
Another variation would be to allow multiple upgrades per chamber type, allowing more versatility for a price (10res per chamber up to nine + 2res per upgrade) and consequently making it easier to balance the game across the two modes. (combat and classic)
While I support the way Firewater is thinkin, as already pointed out I think the investment required in re-designing all the maps kinda knocks his idea on the head irrespective of any other issues.
I'd support the idea of unlinking one chamber per hive and only allowing one upgrade per hive whilst leaving everything else as it is. It wouldn't be too difficult to code and requires no new content, so it'd be easy to slip it into the beta.
However as its a pretty major change I think it'd be tested better in a more exclusive beta testing enviroment, at least constie level but preferably PT/Vet.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Mar 10 2004, 12:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Mar 10 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because you believe one thing doesn't mean it applies to everything and everyone else.
Now please, either give him ideas on how to improve the idea, or get out. The dev team will decide whether it gets implemented or not, not you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I havn't stated anything about my 'beliefs' having to be applied to everything and everyone else. I've merely stated that there is a difference between implimenting a improvement into the game and changing a major part of how the game is played.
And as you say, it is up to the Dev Team to decide what goes into the game, so you telling me to 'get out' won't make a difference.
Anyway, you have an interesting modification of the idea with allowing only one upgrade per hive, but multiple chambers at one time. The only problem with that would be as the Kharaa lose hives, normall they can still have mutiple upgrades and have a chance of making a comeback. Restricting the upgrades based on the number of hives after they've been locked down would make hive lock-downs much more effective and crippling to the Kharaa.
Ok lets scrap the E chamber, how about making the hive upgradable much like the Marine armory is, that way the kharra can just focus on getting resources, and higher tech battles can take place.
<!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Mar 10 2004, 03:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Mar 10 2004, 03:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One idea is to strip hive dependency for multiple chamber types. (simple coding and maybe some easy sprite changes) Some might not like this idea because it takes away the difficult build order choice and the adaptation strategies for the marines. However, D-M-S is so common for seemingly unavoidable reasons that build-orders won't be missed much. The limiting factor would be strictly res. 10res per chamber for three chamber types early game can get expensive. We could see build orders become more complex, such as: 2M-2D-1S-1D-1M-2S.
One variation on this idea would be to limit the number of upgrades you could get per hive. (ie. one hive, 3 of each chamber, you can only have one of the nine upgrades)
Another variation would be to allow multiple upgrades per chamber type, allowing more versatility for a price (10res per chamber up to nine + 2res per upgrade) and consequently making it easier to balance the game across the two modes. (combat and classic)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this idea. The only problem I see with this is that if you were to have one person who was able to get a lot of RFK really fast, they would be able to fund major upgrades very fast. But I guess maybe this just puts the emphasis on the marines to not get killed! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe link the level of the upgrade to the number of hives, rather than the number of chambers. So at hive one you could build a few sensories, but it would still be level 1 sensory. Only problem with that is I think you'd have to do some rebalancing of the effects at each level. Otherwise the 2 hive lockdown would become the emphasis.
One of my pet peeves now is that it's so easy for that rogue gorge to really mess up the alien team. This would alleviate that problem to an extent.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 10 2004, 12:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 10 2004, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok lets scrap the E chamber, how about making the hive upgradable much like the Marine armory is, that way the kharra can just focus on getting resources, and higher tech battles can take place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who upgrades it? Who decides what upgrades to get? I think this kind of thing, while not bad at all, makes the aliens too much like marines. One of the interesting things, to me anyways, has always been the difference in the structure of each side. Do we want to turn aliens into marines with teeth?
It would just be like putting up another hive, only you upgrade it in the same location. The answer to your question would be the usual people that put hives up in pubs and matches.
I think this is a good start to the fact that controlling hives and turret farming on pubs until HA arrives, while not controlling any res outside of the hive often results in victory via HA train.
My proposal is that the hive still serves its purpose, i.e. it costs the same, is still in the same place on the and unlocks the abilities/chamber slot as normal. It is the preferrable option for aliens.
Should marines manage to control both hives, aliens have a new option however, that is building e-chambers and upgrading the hive. E-chambers would serve the purpose of unlocking a new chamber slot. Upgrading the hive would give access to hive 2 and hive 3 abilities.
This should be very res intensive for aliens to do. Upgrading a hive or getting an e-chamber should cost at least as much as onos and perhaps more. If the aliens can exert control over the majority of res and are able to fund higher life forms and the hive upgrade/e-chambers, they deserve to win.
There has been games on pubs where half the team was onos or fade and capped for res, but couldn't do much to spend it, because marines were holding the hive locations behind massive turret farms (I mean 20+ turrets with 2 elect tf's, etc.)
I believe this has the potential to make pub play interesting and challenging, were the battle is between two truly "teched-up teams" instead of one hive onos versus HA/HMG. A beta of some sort that attempts this would be very welcome.
Basically, Firewater, what you really want is for the Aliens to be able to tech up with one location on the map (like Marines) rather than having to control a wide area of the map (as they do know).
We've already seen dozens of recurring threads complaining how the one-location tech of the Marines allows them to set up impressive stalemates even when reduced to that one location, while when Aliens are reduced to one location they just roll over and die to the advanced Marine tech without any of their own tech to fight back.
However, the solutions generally proposed involve trying to increase marine territory dependancy to prevent stalemates, rather than decreasing Alien territory dependancy to let both sides put up stalemates. This is just not needed. There is no good reason why Aliens should be able to acheive top tech from a single location.
(Granted, a no-build radius would force that single location to be slightly bigger than the marines single location, but not by a wide margin.)
<!--QuoteBegin-falloutx2+Mar 10 2004, 01:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (falloutx2 @ Mar 10 2004, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My proposal is that the hive still serves its purpose, i.e. it costs the same, is still in the same place on the and unlocks the abilities/chamber slot as normal. It is the preferrable option for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think what you would see with this is that aliens would focus all of their time on killing things (RFK) and not worry about gaining territory, or hives for that matter. Then once they have the res, they "upgrade in place" and start going after the marines as if they were 3 hive aliens.
One thing I think we cannot overlook is that hives are important to both sides. Aliens need them to become stronger, and marines need them to keep aliens from kicking the snot out of them. I think this is a very important aspect that MUST be kept to maintain gameplay.
For example. Who REALLY fears a one hive onos? For the most part they go pretty fast even to a few marines with LMGs. Now throw in the second hive, now he has stomp which makes him a much more fearsome opponent. Add in umbra (also second hive) and you've got some trouble.
If neither side has any real incentive to control territory, they wont. They'll sit back and tech up, and in the end you'll have long stalemates on both sides because it's very difficult to remove one side once they've fortified that position.
One thing I thought I'd mention, as having been involved with playtesting NS for quite some time now -
Generally, Flayra is <b>not</b> looking for new ideas from the playtesting staff. Time and time again he's stressed that he's more interested in whether something works or not, is fun or not. A suggestion to him to totally revamp the way aliens work will most likely go ignored.
(Flay- I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, this is just my observation of how you handle playtesting.)
<!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l] Zues+Mar 10 2004, 01:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l] Zues @ Mar 10 2004, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think what you would see with this is that aliens would focus all of their time on killing things (RFK) and not worry about gaining territory, or hives for that matter. Then once they have the res, they "upgrade in place" and start going after the marines as if they were 3 hive aliens.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See, the point is that it wouldn't be economically viable to upgrade the hive and build the e-chamber unless you had a ton of res.
In my mind, the costs goes like this.
10 res (gorge) + 90 res (e-chamber)
+
10 res (gorge) + 90 res (hive upgrade)
= 200 res
for the same functionality as what 55 (hive + gorge) would give you.
I see that as making it anti-camp, you are not going to get the 400 res necessary to get to hive 3 tech and the higher life forms to use it without a very good economy. RFK wouldn't cut it in that instance.
All this alternate upgrade path does is give aliens with res dominance a fighting chance of breaking a turret farm.
<!--QuoteBegin-falloutx2+Mar 10 2004, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (falloutx2 @ Mar 10 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All this alternate upgrade path does is give aliens with res dominance a fighting chance of breaking a turret farm.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see what you're saying, but I don't know that this is a realistic thing. How often do aliens just sit around with one hive, 7 res nodes and horde res (unless they're unwilling to spend it anyways) till the end of the map.
Most of the games I've played with situations where the marines have a two hive lockdown occure because the aliens aren't controlling the map at all. I think maybe making the Onos a little stronger would solve the problem of two hive lockdowns. At one point the Onos was meant to be a farm buster, but that seems to have been lost somewhere.
What I was aiming for, and I think this was FireWater's original intent, was to free up the aliens to be a little bit more strategic and versatile in gameplay. As it stands, alien game play goes something like this:
1) Build 3 Defense chambers 2) Get a fade to kill marine nodes 3) Build hive 2 4) Build 3 Movement chambers 5) Kill marines 5a) Build the third hive
6) Rinse and repeat
Obviously that's not absolute, but I think most would agree that game flow is pretty much along that line. That routine really starts to get stale after a while, for both sides.
There is no way you could just hole up in one area of the map if the marines pinned you back to it.
You could have a hive with 2 of the original evo chambers and 3 of each chamber in it, surrounded by as many OCs as the chamber limit allows. The marines have 9-10 RTs and therefore a HA squad very quickly and siege out all your defences. Maybe kill an onos and fade or two as you're on one res node and then shoot/siege your hive and evo chambers. You would in this case take down 3 'hives' with two sets of sieges at most. It would be easier to do that than take down 3 hives in seperate locations.
It would also be much easier to pin back aliens in the first place in the above scenario as you'd know for certain where they were going to spawn every time.
I really think this idea is worth looking into seriously,
Comments
It's simple: we need to keep hives for something. If you want to create a new evolution chamber to restrict upgrade chambers without eliminating the hive system for abilities, that would be more practical.
And Last., "intellectual daring"? That's not the terminology I would use. It's an idealistic idea that just won't happen. Definetly a fun concept to think about but not a practical suggestion that merits serious consideration. However, the issue he brings up with this suggestion IS something we need to take into serious consideration and I wouldn't mind using this thread to discuss it further.
However, having the Upgrade Chamber unlock both additional evolution chambers AND upgraded abilities is a bad idea. As I understand it, the whole idea behind this in the first place is to promote more RTS like tactics, where you have to make split second decisions and outthink your opponent. This would cause the exact opposite to happen in many cases. Alien teams would simply plop two Upgrade Chambers down in their home hive, spam some OT's, and they'd have three hives worth of abilities and evolution chambers in one easy to defend, cozy corner of the map. Simply send some skulks and gorges out to pressure and capture res, and you'd be set. At the first sign of danger, pull everything you've got back home and fight tooth and nail for just one tiny corner of the map.
The way things are right now, with fixed hive locations, you must be quick and fluid in your strikes, and must have adequate scouting across the whole map to protect 2 (or 3) crucial locations such a great distance from each other. Marines can be quick and silent in their strikes on a hive if they use good timing and team work. If the aliens have all their eggs in one basket, it would be nearly impossible to sneak up on, and nearly impossible to attack. Instead of encouraging fluid, quick thinking tactics, you'd be rendering them mostly useless.
I remember way back in 1.04 scrim, [TE] vs [ReD]. We were on marines rushing ReD's second hive as they put it up, taking it down every time. The game was at a stale mate at this point, and was over an hour long. So ReD got tricky and put up 2 hives at the same time. We rushed one while the other built, and they ended up taking the round because of their smart thinking.
I also remember many occasions where we, as well as other clans, would quietly shuffle 4 shotgun marines off to a hive and take it down before the aliens knew what hit em. Or times when we would send 2 shotties at a hive to feign a rush, while someone else quietly slipped up a phase at the other hive. Strats like this, that require the quick thinking and coordination that you're after, would be useless when aliens simply turtle up one hive.
I love you man
and this idea will NEVAR GO IN
EVAR
its just how flay works, we all know it.
I love you man
and this idea will NEVAR GO IN
EVAR
its just how flay works, we all know it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
who are you to judge what and how Flayra thinks? What if Flayra reads this topic and like what he reads? Firewater is a playtester, he would listen and value his opions on most topics on NS rather then a person walking into the forums to say OMG THIS SUXORZ REMOV IT NOWZORZ.
the purpose of the playtester is to try out the new build, offer feedback, give ideas on new improvements. I'd say he's doing his job.
I just hope this thread stays on topic, and not get stuff posted that really doesn't argue either side. Please keep posting your thoughts on this idea, its only going to help, even if you think its silly.
Change hive restrictions. You're concerned about versatility, from what I read. (the other concern being much less important) It would only require a simple change such as allowing multiple chamber types with one hive. For balance, you could limit some other element of the chambers to hives. For instance, the number of upgrades per chamber being limited by hives. (which would also consequently allow balancing between both modes of play easier)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea a bit more...
Allow multiple chambers to be built even with only one hive, but at 1 hive you get lvl 1 upgrades only, not matter how many you build. When the second hive goes up all upgrades go to lvl 2, and lvl 3 with the 3rd hive.
Now you have :
- Eliminated the the DMS scenerio
- Allowed more flexibility with the Alien tech
- Retained the need to secure the hive locations
Best of all it requires no map changes, adds no additional entities and theoretically should be easier to implement.
Probably require some tweaks regarding res cost and how much each level will grant (i.e. make it a large improvement from lvl 1 to lvl 2 and from lvl 2 to 3)
The evolution chamber would allow the construction of another chamber (DMS), and not the addition of slot 3/4 weapons. This would lenghten the life of skulks in the early game (allowing one to have silence, other cloaking, or focus; maybe having 2 at once: silence AND focus/ celerity AND regen). Skulks are very usefull when having multipule upgrades, or when the marine doesn't know what kinds of upgrades they are facing against.
The evolution chamber would give the bonuses of all the active chambers in the game. ie: having defense and movements, the evolution chamber posses the passive powers of the defense and movement chambers (healing, giving energy).
The evolution chamber is limited one to a hive.
While having movements, using the hive sends you to the evolution chamber. (i believe movements should do a little bit more then they do right now, seems like it's not enough to be equal with the others.).
Destroying the evolution chamber will cause you to loose the upgrades of the chamber that the evolution chamber provides (unless you have the correct number of hives to cover all of the upgrades, like normal). You cannot get those upgrades again unless you build another evolution chamber or a hive is built.
rough stats: 25 res, 3500 hp.
I think this would work well WITH the hives system, it offers more strategy at the beginning, providing aliens with more power (needed as a skulk). Only the hives would offer new attacks (slot3/4), respawn, and the more effective armor; that way the emphises is still on the hives, just that the hives is not as critical as once before.
Notice '<i>give ideas on new improvements</i>'. This doesn't mean going and completely revamping the Kharaa tech tree, which would severely alter the game and change the way it is played.
Notice '<i>give ideas on new improvements</i>'. This doesn't mean going and completely revamping the Kharaa tech tree, which would severely alter the game and change the way it is played. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you believe one thing doesn't mean it applies to everything and everyone else. What if the idea sparks interest with the dev team and something similar to this is tested? I don't know who gave the idea for focus, but something like that changed the way people play. Now sensory is a viable option in an NS game. I think him giving absolutly horrable ideas again and again is MUCH better then him never giving any ideas.
Now please, either give him ideas on how to improve the idea, or get out. The dev team will decide whether it gets implemented or not, not you.
Moving on...
I'm going to assume the evolution chamber (any additional chamber) is out of the question. (I never really liked any of the suggestions using it anyway) What can the devs do easily to allow more versatility in Kharaa strategy and responsiveness with minimal damage to other gameplay elements?
One idea is to strip hive dependency for multiple chamber types. (simple coding and maybe some easy sprite changes) Some might not like this idea because it takes away the difficult build order choice and the adaptation strategies for the marines. However, D-M-S is so common for seemingly unavoidable reasons that build-orders won't be missed much. The limiting factor would be strictly res. 10res per chamber for three chamber types early game can get expensive. We could see build orders become more complex, such as: 2M-2D-1S-1D-1M-2S.
One variation on this idea would be to limit the number of upgrades you could get per hive. (ie. one hive, 3 of each chamber, you can only have one of the nine upgrades)
Another variation would be to allow multiple upgrades per chamber type, allowing more versatility for a price (10res per chamber up to nine + 2res per upgrade) and consequently making it easier to balance the game across the two modes. (combat and classic)
I'd support the idea of unlinking one chamber per hive and only allowing one upgrade per hive whilst leaving everything else as it is. It wouldn't be too difficult to code and requires no new content, so it'd be easy to slip it into the beta.
However as its a pretty major change I think it'd be tested better in a more exclusive beta testing enviroment, at least constie level but preferably PT/Vet.
Now please, either give him ideas on how to improve the idea, or get out. The dev team will decide whether it gets implemented or not, not you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I havn't stated anything about my 'beliefs' having to be applied to everything and everyone else. I've merely stated that there is a difference between implimenting a improvement into the game and changing a major part of how the game is played.
And as you say, it is up to the Dev Team to decide what goes into the game, so you telling me to 'get out' won't make a difference.
Anyway, you have an interesting modification of the idea with allowing only one upgrade per hive, but multiple chambers at one time. The only problem with that would be as the Kharaa lose hives, normall they can still have mutiple upgrades and have a chance of making a comeback. Restricting the upgrades based on the number of hives after they've been locked down would make hive lock-downs much more effective and crippling to the Kharaa.
One variation on this idea would be to limit the number of upgrades you could get per hive. (ie. one hive, 3 of each chamber, you can only have one of the nine upgrades)
Another variation would be to allow multiple upgrades per chamber type, allowing more versatility for a price (10res per chamber up to nine + 2res per upgrade) and consequently making it easier to balance the game across the two modes. (combat and classic)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. The only problem I see with this is that if you were to have one person who was able to get a lot of RFK really fast, they would be able to fund major upgrades very fast. But I guess maybe this just puts the emphasis on the marines to not get killed! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe link the level of the upgrade to the number of hives, rather than the number of chambers. So at hive one you could build a few sensories, but it would still be level 1 sensory. Only problem with that is I think you'd have to do some rebalancing of the effects at each level. Otherwise the 2 hive lockdown would become the emphasis.
One of my pet peeves now is that it's so easy for that rogue gorge to really mess up the alien team. This would alleviate that problem to an extent.
Who upgrades it? Who decides what upgrades to get? I think this kind of thing, while not bad at all, makes the aliens too much like marines. One of the interesting things, to me anyways, has always been the difference in the structure of each side. Do we want to turn aliens into marines with teeth?
My proposal is that the hive still serves its purpose, i.e. it costs the same, is still in the same place on the and unlocks the abilities/chamber slot as normal. It is the preferrable option for aliens.
Should marines manage to control both hives, aliens have a new option however, that is building e-chambers and upgrading the hive. E-chambers would serve the purpose of unlocking a new chamber slot. Upgrading the hive would give access to hive 2 and hive 3 abilities.
This should be very res intensive for aliens to do. Upgrading a hive or getting an e-chamber should cost at least as much as onos and perhaps more. If the aliens can exert control over the majority of res and are able to fund higher life forms and the hive upgrade/e-chambers, they deserve to win.
There has been games on pubs where half the team was onos or fade and capped for res, but couldn't do much to spend it, because marines were holding the hive locations behind massive turret farms (I mean 20+ turrets with 2 elect tf's, etc.)
I believe this has the potential to make pub play interesting and challenging, were the battle is between two truly "teched-up teams" instead of one hive onos versus HA/HMG. A beta of some sort that attempts this would be very welcome.
We've already seen dozens of recurring threads complaining how the one-location tech of the Marines allows them to set up impressive stalemates even when reduced to that one location, while when Aliens are reduced to one location they just roll over and die to the advanced Marine tech without any of their own tech to fight back.
However, the solutions generally proposed involve trying to increase marine territory dependancy to prevent stalemates, rather than decreasing Alien territory dependancy to let both sides put up stalemates. This is just not needed. There is no good reason why Aliens should be able to acheive top tech from a single location.
(Granted, a no-build radius would force that single location to be slightly bigger than the marines single location, but not by a wide margin.)
I think what you would see with this is that aliens would focus all of their time on killing things (RFK) and not worry about gaining territory, or hives for that matter. Then once they have the res, they "upgrade in place" and start going after the marines as if they were 3 hive aliens.
One thing I think we cannot overlook is that hives are important to both sides. Aliens need them to become stronger, and marines need them to keep aliens from kicking the snot out of them. I think this is a very important aspect that MUST be kept to maintain gameplay.
For example. Who REALLY fears a one hive onos? For the most part they go pretty fast even to a few marines with LMGs. Now throw in the second hive, now he has stomp which makes him a much more fearsome opponent. Add in umbra (also second hive) and you've got some trouble.
If neither side has any real incentive to control territory, they wont. They'll sit back and tech up, and in the end you'll have long stalemates on both sides because it's very difficult to remove one side once they've fortified that position.
Generally, Flayra is <b>not</b> looking for new ideas from the playtesting staff. Time and time again he's stressed that he's more interested in whether something works or not, is fun or not. A suggestion to him to totally revamp the way aliens work will most likely go ignored.
(Flay- I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, this is just my observation of how you handle playtesting.)
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See, the point is that it wouldn't be economically viable to upgrade the hive and build the e-chamber unless you had a ton of res.
In my mind, the costs goes like this.
10 res (gorge) + 90 res (e-chamber)
+
10 res (gorge) + 90 res (hive upgrade)
= 200 res
for the same functionality as what 55 (hive + gorge) would give you.
I see that as making it anti-camp, you are not going to get the 400 res necessary to get to hive 3 tech and the higher life forms to use it without a very good economy. RFK wouldn't cut it in that instance.
All this alternate upgrade path does is give aliens with res dominance a fighting chance of breaking a turret farm.
I see what you're saying, but I don't know that this is a realistic thing. How often do aliens just sit around with one hive, 7 res nodes and horde res (unless they're unwilling to spend it anyways) till the end of the map.
Most of the games I've played with situations where the marines have a two hive lockdown occure because the aliens aren't controlling the map at all. I think maybe making the Onos a little stronger would solve the problem of two hive lockdowns. At one point the Onos was meant to be a farm buster, but that seems to have been lost somewhere.
What I was aiming for, and I think this was FireWater's original intent, was to free up the aliens to be a little bit more strategic and versatile in gameplay. As it stands, alien game play goes something like this:
1) Build 3 Defense chambers
2) Get a fade to kill marine nodes
3) Build hive 2
4) Build 3 Movement chambers
5) Kill marines
5a) Build the third hive
6) Rinse and repeat
Obviously that's not absolute, but I think most would agree that game flow is pretty much along that line. That routine really starts to get stale after a while, for both sides.
You could have a hive with 2 of the original evo chambers and 3 of each chamber in it, surrounded by as many OCs as the chamber limit allows. The marines have 9-10 RTs and therefore a HA squad very quickly and siege out all your defences. Maybe kill an onos and fade or two as you're on one res node and then shoot/siege your hive and evo chambers. You would in this case take down 3 'hives' with two sets of sieges at most. It would be easier to do that than take down 3 hives in seperate locations.
It would also be much easier to pin back aliens in the first place in the above scenario as you'd know for certain where they were going to spawn every time.
I really think this idea is worth looking into seriously,