The Current Co System.
LambdaProject
Join Date: 2002-02-20 Member: 230Members
Join Date: 2002-02-20 Member: 230Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And it's inherent flaws.</div> Hopefully anyone that has been playing CO for a while now can see that the CO system is rather unbalanced.
The main problems facing CO right now are:
1. Marines can never reach full tech. Think about it; In NS the comm can reasearch all passive upgrades such as grenades, MT, lvl 3 armor and weapons etc. Currently you only get a maximum of 10 upgrades. In CO it's impossibly to get:
Weapons 3: (3 Points)
Armor 3: (3 Points)
MT: (1 Point)
HA or JP: (2 Points)
Resupply: (1 Point)
Cat packs: (1 Point)
Shotgun: (1 Point)
HMG or GL: (1 Point)
Scanner sweeping: (1 Point)
In total: 14 Points
-In NS marines can reach full tech, comm can drop any kind of droppable in the field and every passive research upgraded.
-Not being able to reach this kind of tech is currently hurting marines.
2. Alien can over-tech with creatures below onos. In NS aliens are limited to 3 upgrade types per hive, why should CO allow you to have all 3 of one type? NS was balanced for 3 upgrade types. Currently the over-teched fade makes it impossible for marines to even think about assaulting a hive (mid to late game).
Fade: (3 Points)
Points left: 7
This allows for 7 upgrades.
Say you go for level 3 hive weapons. Now you are down to 4 upgrades, say you go with 2 DC upgrades 1 MC and 1 SC. This is over-teched.
Say you don't go for level 3 weapons. Now you can have a mix of say 3 DC upgrades, 3 MC upgrades, and 2 SC upgrades. This is over-teching to the extreem.
One of the great things about NS is the dynamics involved in choosing upgrades. Got regeneration? You're sacrificing more armor for a constant healing which in turn leads you to play differently. Got redemption? You're sacrificing being a stronger fighting unit with carapace or regen with the ability to almost never die. Allowing aliens to have more than one upgrade per type takes away the pro/con aspect of alien abilities.
However there is one thing that wrong with the aliens, onos cannot reach full tech. The onos, like marines should be allowed to reach full tech.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:orange'>-The new CO system-</span></span>
Marines: Should for the most part remain the same, but give them more levels so they can reach full tech after a while. The choice aspect of CO will be left to the player choosing their weapon and either HA or JP.
Aliens: This upgrade system needs to be totally revamped. Here's how it should work:
-Aliens can choose to upgrade either a chamber, a new hive ability(If a chamber ability has been picked), or a new lifeform.
-Aliens can never have more than 1 chamber type of upgrade (You can't have 2 DC upgrades or 2 MC upgrades etc.)
-Aliens have to upgrade a chamber upgrade before upgrading a new hive ability.
-Aliens can only upgrade a new chamber upgrade after upgrading a new hive ability.
-Aliens can upgrade lifeforms at any time, the prerequisites will stay the same: gorge > Lerk or Fade: Fade > Onos
Upgrade levels might have to be changed to balance it. Tweaking this system would be needed but I believe this is seriously worth a try.
Discuss.
The main problems facing CO right now are:
1. Marines can never reach full tech. Think about it; In NS the comm can reasearch all passive upgrades such as grenades, MT, lvl 3 armor and weapons etc. Currently you only get a maximum of 10 upgrades. In CO it's impossibly to get:
Weapons 3: (3 Points)
Armor 3: (3 Points)
MT: (1 Point)
HA or JP: (2 Points)
Resupply: (1 Point)
Cat packs: (1 Point)
Shotgun: (1 Point)
HMG or GL: (1 Point)
Scanner sweeping: (1 Point)
In total: 14 Points
-In NS marines can reach full tech, comm can drop any kind of droppable in the field and every passive research upgraded.
-Not being able to reach this kind of tech is currently hurting marines.
2. Alien can over-tech with creatures below onos. In NS aliens are limited to 3 upgrade types per hive, why should CO allow you to have all 3 of one type? NS was balanced for 3 upgrade types. Currently the over-teched fade makes it impossible for marines to even think about assaulting a hive (mid to late game).
Fade: (3 Points)
Points left: 7
This allows for 7 upgrades.
Say you go for level 3 hive weapons. Now you are down to 4 upgrades, say you go with 2 DC upgrades 1 MC and 1 SC. This is over-teched.
Say you don't go for level 3 weapons. Now you can have a mix of say 3 DC upgrades, 3 MC upgrades, and 2 SC upgrades. This is over-teching to the extreem.
One of the great things about NS is the dynamics involved in choosing upgrades. Got regeneration? You're sacrificing more armor for a constant healing which in turn leads you to play differently. Got redemption? You're sacrificing being a stronger fighting unit with carapace or regen with the ability to almost never die. Allowing aliens to have more than one upgrade per type takes away the pro/con aspect of alien abilities.
However there is one thing that wrong with the aliens, onos cannot reach full tech. The onos, like marines should be allowed to reach full tech.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:orange'>-The new CO system-</span></span>
Marines: Should for the most part remain the same, but give them more levels so they can reach full tech after a while. The choice aspect of CO will be left to the player choosing their weapon and either HA or JP.
Aliens: This upgrade system needs to be totally revamped. Here's how it should work:
-Aliens can choose to upgrade either a chamber, a new hive ability(If a chamber ability has been picked), or a new lifeform.
-Aliens can never have more than 1 chamber type of upgrade (You can't have 2 DC upgrades or 2 MC upgrades etc.)
-Aliens have to upgrade a chamber upgrade before upgrading a new hive ability.
-Aliens can only upgrade a new chamber upgrade after upgrading a new hive ability.
-Aliens can upgrade lifeforms at any time, the prerequisites will stay the same: gorge > Lerk or Fade: Fade > Onos
Upgrade levels might have to be changed to balance it. Tweaking this system would be needed but I believe this is seriously worth a try.
Discuss.
Comments
Considering that under teched marines vs. over teched aliens in combat is fairly balanced, it seems that fully teched marines (more tech than co) vs. fully teched aliens (less tech than co) in ns mode is imbalanced.
I agree. But then of course in NS you've got to factor in buildings and res costs.
CO, as far as the upgrading system is concerned, seems balanced to me.
On our 8v8 server where skills are relatively balanced, aliens always end up trapping marines in their base.
Almost all CO scrims I've played in have been alien sided.
On another note I have to disagree, mid-late game NS is very balanced, especially when compared to early game. Are you basing your comments on pubs or scrims? On most pubs you have crappy fades, if you have good fades aliens are more than up to par on marines in NS and CO.
your logic is so flawed that i dont even want to try to shine some light on you
your logic is so flawed that i dont even want to try to shine some light on you <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not, its having <i><b>more</b></i> than 1 upgrade in each chamber. Something that fundamentally shouldn't be possible. If my logic "is so flawed" then why don't you help me out? It's one way of looking at the imbalances of combat. (There are many others, like spawn system for example)
IMHO combat is more like a fun game mode. It's pretty hard to balance it with players not losing upgrades/evolutions/items. Example given: All aliens go onos. I don't think there is any way to counter that but kill the hive BEFORE they all go onos. But this doesn't happen in public games anyway (aliens lose many games just because they don't get oni).
Combat is fun as long as it is only seen as a fun game mode. Some upgrades need tweaking but that's all about it. If combat was meant to be a server fill up placeholder it should not be played in clan scrims anyway.
The important wort is IF!
maybe you can do this in pub games where you have 10+ people on the field woho guard your restowers.
But in clanplay with 5 people on the field (for rines) you can hardly hold on enough restowers to tech that far.
Aliens usually control most of the map and then they get multiple onoses and you are doomed, cuz u didn´t have the res to hold them back (by giving out weapons, ect)
the only way i have seen in clanplay so far is (assuming both teams are equally good) that you rush/siege the mainhive around the 6.5 minute mark or you will be doomed around 5-6 minutes later.
Aliens do usually win around the 17 minute mark (if they suck/be equally good)
They have normally 2 Hives, the thrid building adn 2+ onoses the rest fade or lerk!
marines have 3/1 upgrades, grenades, heavy weapons and HA or JP and maybe MT
And thats a serious flaw in classic ns currently. you only get max tech in pub games normally (or in clan games where you own the enemy and just don´t end the game aka laming)
this keeps us from prolonged games and all the fun max tech battles have!
With a few changes you could have all the fun combat provides packed in ns without scrificing any of the strategical aspects
is it really a bad thing ?
The best combat games i have played until now are the one where no one reached lvl 10 and stayed in a 10 min delay.
I don't think lvl 10 should be reacheable every game it will make choosing your upgrade even more interesting.
btw a lvl 10 marine own a lvl 10 alien.
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I like this idea quite a bit. I too have experienced the alien end game you have described. The marines frequently will complain over all-talk to "finish us already". Allowing multiple upgrades per chamber in NS mode would make the aliens stronger - provided they have enough resources to build enough chambers.
Perhaps a system like:
1-3 DCS gets you 1 defence upgrade like normal
4-6 DCS gets you 2 defence upgrades
7-9 DCS gets you 3 defence upgrades.
This would allow aliens who dominate all the resources and hives to reach an extreme amount of tech. Something for the suggestions forums I guess.
Not always, depends on the matchup. A level 10 jper may own a level 10 onos in an open space, but in a closed hallway, a level 10 onos can easily devour a level 10 HA and depending on the skill of the onos, a jper can be relatively easy to devour, as well. 1v1 I think the aliens have the advantage. As you get more people on both sides, the balance shifts to the marine favor somewhat, this is why the game is hard to balance.
Basically if all the aliens stay skulk they can't possibly win a large game. If the aliens have a nice mix of all classes they can always win unless they are just plain out-skilled.
Considering that under teched marines vs. over teched aliens in combat is fairly balanced, it seems that fully teched marines (more tech than co) vs. fully teched aliens (less tech than co) in ns mode is imbalanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only agree partially - remember, the goal in co_ is alot simpler than ns_. Hence the useful things a unit can do in co_ boil down to "Take damage and smack the CC" or "Kill people faster than they spawn". The Lerks sporecloud for example, is alot more useful in an ns_ match than it'll ever be in co_.
I do agree though, lategame tech wise aliens are just too weak - where on the other hand mid-game they can overpower 'rines a bit (although admittedly, not by such a margin). Theres a good few reasons for that, mostly boiling down to 'rines sheer amount of passive and un-loseable upgrades (MT/Upgrades et cetera - as well as picking up downed weaponry). The most unreasonably imbalanced thing on the high-tech list being the JP (nothing that can remotely counter it except the lerk <b>at Hive3, or 2 and Sensory</b> - below that the Lerk is not much more of a counter than a Fade. Meaning it works, but not grandiosely well), followed by the infamous 10-res shotgun of all trades.
But discussing ns_ balance here is probably too complex a topic. Combat balance is much easier to understand - it may be fairly balance right now, with a mild Alien-tilt, but its an extremely boring game. What I'd suggest is that only the Alien hive be on any co_ map, removing all the CCs (or disabling them where the sources are lost). Make the 'rine spawn area an instakill zone for any Alien that enters, and remove the Gorge again.
Yes, its very much like what you'd do right now in a CAL rules co_ match, but that just works so much better than real co. Marines can only camp within limits there, and Aliens camping with their Melee weapons is alot more fun. If you wanna do it right, add in a 15 minute timelimit after which the Aliens have won if the Hive is still alive.