Healspraying Fades And Onos
The_Spectre
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9212Members
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9212Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's almost useless... should it be?</div> Right now, healspraying fades and (especially) onos is practically useless, and often even likely to get them killed by blocking them if done in a fight (again, especially onos).
This is a direct result of the hitbox fixes combined with the hp increases. I hope everyone can see the logic in that. If you double the amount of bullets that hit, and you double the effective hitpoints to compensate, you need to double the rate of healing as well to keep it equally effective.
I suggest:
<b>Increase healspray effectiveness for fades and onos.</b>
This can either be done by changing it to a percentage of max health like hives are right now, or simply by doubling the current rate for fades and tripling for onos. (I think the last way gives the best numbers, a percentage of max hp would be impossible to get right for both skulks and onos.)
As I see it, this will have 3 effects:
<b>1. Promote teamwork.</b>
I think everyone will agree that this is a good thing.
<b>2. Makes fades and onos more powerful in general.</b>
This is the only potential problem. A simple compensation would be to increase the cost of both by a bit, say 55 and 85. They're coming a bit too early as it is anyway, imho.
<b>3. Increase viability of movement and sensory first.</b>
Right now, big aliens need regeneration. Aside from the occasional carapace fade who is either metaing a lot or hanging around the hive, regeneration is the staple upgrade for big aliens, for one main reason:
Effective healing is hard to come by. Only regeneration and hives provide a decent healing rate.
Allowing gorges to effectively heal big aliens should allow them to go without regeneration, and thus make movement and sensory viable as first hive chambers, and maybe even as first and second hive chambers.
This is a direct result of the hitbox fixes combined with the hp increases. I hope everyone can see the logic in that. If you double the amount of bullets that hit, and you double the effective hitpoints to compensate, you need to double the rate of healing as well to keep it equally effective.
I suggest:
<b>Increase healspray effectiveness for fades and onos.</b>
This can either be done by changing it to a percentage of max health like hives are right now, or simply by doubling the current rate for fades and tripling for onos. (I think the last way gives the best numbers, a percentage of max hp would be impossible to get right for both skulks and onos.)
As I see it, this will have 3 effects:
<b>1. Promote teamwork.</b>
I think everyone will agree that this is a good thing.
<b>2. Makes fades and onos more powerful in general.</b>
This is the only potential problem. A simple compensation would be to increase the cost of both by a bit, say 55 and 85. They're coming a bit too early as it is anyway, imho.
<b>3. Increase viability of movement and sensory first.</b>
Right now, big aliens need regeneration. Aside from the occasional carapace fade who is either metaing a lot or hanging around the hive, regeneration is the staple upgrade for big aliens, for one main reason:
Effective healing is hard to come by. Only regeneration and hives provide a decent healing rate.
Allowing gorges to effectively heal big aliens should allow them to go without regeneration, and thus make movement and sensory viable as first hive chambers, and maybe even as first and second hive chambers.
Comments
This is the only potential problem... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure I agree that it's a problem. The gorge can't take that much damage - I know that if I'm stuck with an LMG and we encounter a fade/onos with a healspraying buddy, I'll take the gorge out first. And that's why (IMO) most healspraying is done outside combat; not just because it's not as potent as it could be, but because our big-boned friend doesn't want to die.
Whether gorge vulnerability is a problem in itself is something I'll leave you to decide...
Another problem is that if I, as a gorge, decide to healspray-support, I cannot effectively bilebomb, since bilebomb takes up so much energy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>3. Increase viability of movement and sensory first.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I'm all for making MC/SC first more regular, I don't think this would do it.
The harsh truth is that you can't rely on healspray. First, you need a teammember who's both willing to be gorge and not mind dying. Second is pretty much the reason above; if gorge goes kaput, you're in deep doo-doo. Thirdly, he's probably going to end up getting in your way. Regeneration is a much safer bet.
Right now, big aliens need regeneration. Aside from the occasional carapace fade who is either metaing a lot or hanging around the hive, regeneration is the staple upgrade for big aliens, for one main reason: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually played a 3.0 game on ns_ayumi where the marines relocated to a hive, and the aliens only had MC/SC.
We had the gorge/onos and gorge/fade pairing thing going on, and it was painfully ineffective. It:
1. Slowed everyone to gorge speed
2. Cut our available man count in half (since the gorges were effectively replacing a 2 point upgrade)
3. Required gobs of downtime to heal a single onos, even with adren
It would be nice if this were tweaked a bit.
Perhaps make it similar to the hive's healing method/rate? Heals hp +%ofmax? Like 5 hp + 8% or something?
This heals skulks at 16 and onos at 30ish.
This is the only potential problem. A simple compensation would be to increase the cost of both by a bit, say 55 and 85. They're coming a bit too early as it is anyway, imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No way. Fade is good as it is, and onos is just **** versus anything better than my bootheel -and then he would barely win, if got lucky and my heel was muddy (in which case I would make him lick it clean and start bashing twice as hard <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Seriously though, gorges can be more of a laibality when tyrin to heal an onos, I concur with the proposed changes.
this is pointless, if ur a fade u can blink in, get shot and run out and do metabolise and voula. If your an onos, u munch on a guy, then run away healing, voula.
Give this man a prize.
2 hive = 4% heal spray
3 hive = 6% heal spray
extra motivation for third hive.
second. Movement is great first. but sensory is very very good
provided you know what the heck your doing. If you get sensory first. you need to not let em out of thier base.
Again, just make healspray heal for 13 + 3% of the target creatures hp and problem solved.
Again, just make healspray heal for 13 + 3% of the target creatures hp and problem solved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armour becomes more effective per point when you get each successive hive.
It would be overpowered
Side effects: 1: Healing Skulks would be extremely fast--but even under healspray, a Skulk can only take about 1 second of fire from 1 marine anyway, so it won't have much time to matter.
2: Healing other Gorges would be noticeably faster, and could very easily be useful in direct combat.
3: Healing Marines would kill them noticeably faster. Between 2 and 3, this makes Gorge rushes substantially more powerful, which is the only thing I'm worried about. Any comments?
It would be overpowered <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats like saying using Welders on marines is overpowered. Actually, now that I think about it, just having the healspray do 1/2 its effect on HP and 1/2 on Armor would give the same benefit as my suggestion with far fewer bad side effects.
Armour isn't an ability though. (:
It would be overpowered <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats like saying using Welders on marines is overpowered. Actually, now that I think about it, just having the healspray do 1/2 its effect on HP and 1/2 on Armor would give the same benefit as my suggestion with far fewer bad side effects. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um wrong, when you are welding others you still need hp as a marine, and while you are welding you cannot attack.
On the other hand, a skulk being healed by a gorge can attack any marine that comes nearby all while the gorge continues to heal.
On the other hand, a skulk being healed by a gorge can attack any marine that comes nearby all while the gorge continues to heal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've drawn a faulty parallel. True, the marine who is weld<i>ing</i> cannot attack, but the marine who is being weld<i>ed</i> can. That is the correct parallel to the skulk who can still attack.
Technically, yes, Healspray will let the Gorge do a small amount of damage to Marines that wander nearby...but the Welder will also do a small amount of damage to the Aliens that wander by.
Next comparison...that welding marine needs to be right next to his buddy, while that healing Gorge can be some distance back. But this isn't really a problem, since the Marine can still shoot the whole room even if he has to stand next to you to be healed, while the Skulk has to move across the room to fight back.
Final comparison...yes, you do still need some HP as a marine, but not much. If the com is actually dropping you medpacks, the ratio goes from 2 medpacks/bite to 2 bites/medpack. If the com isn't dropping you medpacks, you still get the lifespan of Armor3 with Armor0, and better than that with Armor1. FIVE bites to kill an Armor1 Marine who is being Welded.
On the other hand, a skulk being healed by a gorge can attack any marine that comes nearby all while the gorge continues to heal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've drawn a faulty parallel. True, the marine who is weld<i>ing</i> cannot attack, but the marine who is being weld<i>ed</i> can. That is the correct parallel to the skulk who can still attack.
Technically, yes, Healspray will let the Gorge do a small amount of damage to Marines that wander nearby...but the Welder will also do a small amount of damage to the Aliens that wander by.
Next comparison...that welding marine needs to be right next to his buddy, while that healing Gorge can be some distance back. But this isn't really a problem, since the Marine can still shoot the whole room even if he has to stand next to you to be healed, while the Skulk has to move across the room to fight back.
Final comparison...yes, you do still need some HP as a marine, but not much. If the com is actually dropping you medpacks, the ratio goes from 2 medpacks/bite to 2 bites/medpack. If the com isn't dropping you medpacks, you still get the lifespan of Armor3 with Armor0, and better than that with Armor1. FIVE bites to kill an Armor1 Marine who is being Welded. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are correct, that was a crappy comparision...
Okay, really, here is the perfect reasoning as to why if gorges healed armor first it would be overpowered, as opposed to a welding marine.
- Gorge are healing a skulk. One marine comes around the courner to try and get them both. Who does he go for first? The skulk or the gorge?
The skulk. Once the skulk is dead, the gorge will follow. On the other hand, if the gorge is killed first the marine will have wasted his ammo and the skulk will kill the marine.
Because the skulk needs to be targeted first, imagine if armor was healed first before health: <b>One healspray would equal at least 2 bullets!</b> If the skulk has carapace it would take an absurd amount of damage to kill just a lil skulk. If the skulk has carapace it would take 3 bullets per healspray to kill.
In comparision, if a skulk runs upon a marine welding another marine around a courner, the skulk can target the marine with the welder out for a free bite.
While yes it is true the marine is tougher as he takes 5 bites with appropirate medspam and welding, keep in mind the marines are designed to be this tough in order to hold ground. Marines carry firepower but are slow, aliens are weaker but are faster therefore allowing themselves to attack more often.
Second: I'm not exactly terrified of having healspray equal 2-3 bullets each, considering LMG fires 16 times per second while Healspray fires about 1.5 times per second, and even at 100% the skulk only takes 9 bullets to kill.
Third: 2 people + 10 res investment SHOULD be a hard challenge for 1 person + 0 res.
Edit: (Oh, and its not "5 bites with appropriate medspam and welding". Its "5 bites with Welding". With Medspam, I'll bet you that Marine won't die at all to a single skulk. You'll need at least 2 to deal damage faster than he's being healed.)
Second: I'm not exactly terrified of having healspray equal 2-3 bullets each, considering LMG fires 16 times per second while Healspray fires about 1.5 times per second, and even at 100% the skulk only takes 9 bullets to kill.
Third: 2 people + 10 res investment SHOULD be a hard challenge for 1 person + 0 res.
Edit: (Oh, and its not "5 bites with appropriate medspam and welding". Its "5 bites with Welding". With Medspam, I'll bet you that Marine won't die at all to a single skulk. You'll need at least 2 to deal damage faster than he's being healed.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge may die, but if the marine dies then the marine team as a whole loses positining on the field.
It's a trade off, but if I were the marine I'd definatly go for the skulk first.
Also, it's not exactly easy or possible to continually weld a marine who's being bit by a skulk, because the skulk pushes his target around.
Basically the new armor system allows us to make mini-HA trains out of LA if we bother. This is the same tactics we used with HA trains of old, just somewhat less effective but a lot cheaper.
Oh, and remember that the knockback will usually knock you to the right (assuming your not jumping), so stay near the right wall so the Welder crosshair won't be distubed.