How Is Ns Balanced?
InquisitiveIdiot
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21854Members
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21854Members
<div class="IPBDescription">to prevent future annoying suggestions</div> As one of those people who simply cannot help kibitzing on occasion, I've made several threads here about ways to (in my mind) improve balance. They inevitably sparked discussion about what true balance is, what needs to be done to reach that, etc.
This is not a suggestion thread. The latest changes to the game (specifically, focus) seem to indicate to me that the devs' ideas of balance must not be at all similar to mine. So I've started this thread to try to understand what you devs mean by that holy grail of "balance." I'd personally prefer if the ***holes and self-proclaimed experts that infest every game forum stay out of this, but hey, I can't stop you all from posting.
That said, we begin.
First of all, to me balance between the alien team and the marine team means that at any point, anything the other team does should have some way of countering it. This means the tables can turn at any moment, should the aggressor make a mistake. However, it is becoming more apparent to me that the devs wish NS to be a constantly lopsided battle: aliens having the advantage in the beginning, marines almost guaranteed to win late game. While IMO this is a poor bastardization of the word "balance," in all fairness I am not making the game.
The second balance question depends on the answer to the first: if the teams are supposed to be equal at each step of the way, what degree of map control is required to balance the scales? No one can deny that if marines control 3/4 of the map (MS + 2 hives) they are virtually assured of winning. I would argue that conversly, if aliens have all 3 hives <i>they</i> should be assured of winning instead of the current situation: digging the marines out of their stronghold in a slow and painful process. I feel that balance should be acheived in situations where each team owns half the map, but again, that's just me.
If I could get some solid feedback ragerding which of these different ideas of balance are preferred by the devs, I'd be much obliged.
This is not a suggestion thread. The latest changes to the game (specifically, focus) seem to indicate to me that the devs' ideas of balance must not be at all similar to mine. So I've started this thread to try to understand what you devs mean by that holy grail of "balance." I'd personally prefer if the ***holes and self-proclaimed experts that infest every game forum stay out of this, but hey, I can't stop you all from posting.
That said, we begin.
First of all, to me balance between the alien team and the marine team means that at any point, anything the other team does should have some way of countering it. This means the tables can turn at any moment, should the aggressor make a mistake. However, it is becoming more apparent to me that the devs wish NS to be a constantly lopsided battle: aliens having the advantage in the beginning, marines almost guaranteed to win late game. While IMO this is a poor bastardization of the word "balance," in all fairness I am not making the game.
The second balance question depends on the answer to the first: if the teams are supposed to be equal at each step of the way, what degree of map control is required to balance the scales? No one can deny that if marines control 3/4 of the map (MS + 2 hives) they are virtually assured of winning. I would argue that conversly, if aliens have all 3 hives <i>they</i> should be assured of winning instead of the current situation: digging the marines out of their stronghold in a slow and painful process. I feel that balance should be acheived in situations where each team owns half the map, but again, that's just me.
If I could get some solid feedback ragerding which of these different ideas of balance are preferred by the devs, I'd be much obliged.
Comments
I would also like to see something that could turn the game around. Too many times I've seen at an early stage people start complaining that the game is already lost, because some key action happened(failed to happen).
I really agree with mid-battle absence. It's all a beginning and an end in a matter of seconds. But the question is how could a turn of battle begin somewhere in between the Marines about to finish of the game with a Nade or an Alien taking down the last Rine in a show of Leaping skill. What could happen to make the game balance again? IE What would you do to balance a 3 hive advantage? Just randomly blow up the Hive? "A part of the station has Self-Destructed..." (now that I think about it...that would be pretty...interesting to see). Or how would you get rid of a Rine base in one of the Hive location? There's alot of stuff you'd have to think about to make the game balanced. I know I may sound like an Idiot, but I agree there is no True Balance
One thing i would say about balance though is not to underestimate the design of the map. My most closely fought game has been on tanith which is firmly old school. The newer maps, when you look at them are very different.
To sum up and answer your post I think that the devs are going in the right direction and the teams stack up pretty evenly. Perhaps early and definetly late game, ( 3 hives) are delibretly unequal but mid game can go back and forth all day, just how i think it should be.
Note mid game is two hives and equal node control.
NS has a completely unique approach to nearly every single aspect of the game. Nearly every aspect defies gaming conventions.
The resource model. Marines are centralised. Aliens are not.
Huge slow moving Onos in tight cramped spaces.
Ultra fragile Skulks. Ultra fragile Marines. Slow reverse speed marines. All-knowing-all-seeing Motion Tracking. Massive Commander reliance. One-chamber-type-per-hive. Many useless abilities. Complete inability of Aliens to defend a position cheaply. Massive bias towards large Marine teams. Skulk Bite animation (the teeth bite display), designed SPECIFICALLY to BE DISTRACTING so that it's more difficult to bite (never before seen in any other game to date). Marine HMG large muzzle flash animation, designed specifically to be distracting so that it's more difficult to shoot people (never before seen in any other game to date). Did I mention that the entire Alien roster of units require large amounts of skill and tactical judgement, due to the very short lifespans when under fire? Let's face it folks, the Alien experience is the least "average player" friendly in the history of gaming. Death comes quick, everything requires speed, skill, with hit-and-fade guerilla warfare tactics everywhere. VERY unique for a game. Unfortunately, it's also something unappealing to most players out there.
It's no wonder NS is almost unknown to the gaming community as a whole, even 2 years after its release. People play it and quit almost immediately, the learning curve for almost every part of the game is massive, the entire game is extremely unforgiving. The NS webpage boasts millions of downloads. Where are those players? Server counts are still pretty low. It's unheard of in any gaming center around the world (despite the fact that gaming centers' most popular games are RTS and FPS games).
The two sides are so vastly different that it's no surprise the NS team has no ability to predict outcomes of balance changes succesfully (they probably have the largest most-modified changelog ever produced). In any other game, you have a rough estimation of what will happen because the teams are pretty similar. In NS, you change one side (like adding elec RT ability), and the other side has to go through a huge overhaul as well, it's all unpredictable due to the vast gap between the teams. For example, on large servers, Marines have at least an 80% win rate. This is no exagerration on my part, I play on large servers all the time. Why is this? Because Marines shoot guns, and aliens don't. Only the best alien players can survive and dodge 8 LMGs at the same time and survive it. On smaller servers, game outcomes are radically different.
Yeah, I think people need to give up on trying to get this game balanced. It's fundamentally broken. The NS team refuses to give up this dream of "Aliens vs Marines", "speed vs power" dynamic that you see in the movies. And so it will stay broke forever.
Too friggin hard ot hit and after 10 shots or so they are gone or you're dead.
I do infact think some tweaks here and their are still needed to perfect things but all in all its a good layout and balance is lop sided in any game depending on skill level and teamwork and thats one thing that is out of controll of your so called (ballance)
To answer them:
1) Yes, the outcome of any one particular game depends on the players. But if you assume the players all have equal skill, you can tweak the game to get the result you want.
2) It may already be balanced - depending on what the devs are looking for. Thus the reason for my post. As marines have siege and aliens do not, marines already had a tremendous advantage late game: they could clear out turtling aliens in perfect safety, while any danger to them requires an alien at the receiving end of your gun.
Rather than addressing this, in 3.0 the aliens gained focus - an ungodly bonus in the very early game, but relatively useless later on. Rather than even the relation between early vs late game time, it worsened the disparity. Aliens now have a much easier time in the early game, while the late game is just as difficult for them.
Therefore I thought it'd be a good idea to seek out answers from the devs regarding the intended balance for the game. If they did want a lopsided game, I'd rather not waste my time and theirs with suggestions that even the odds.
3) The races are very different, but this has little to do with balance. If anything all it does is demonstrate that one can't equate marine res with alien res. Balance can still be struck. For example:
Early game:
Remove focus. Give the poor armor 0 rines a chance.
Late game:
Either remove siege, or give the aliens some indirect means of damage.
Either remove some of the alien's dependence on controlling 3/4 of the map, or give the marines' an equivalent incentive to control more than one hive + rt.
That should eliminate the majority of the imbalance: early game marines and skulks are roughly balanced, late game either both teams can turtle or neither can.
The marines made a very good attempt...in level 3 ha to seige us out of satcom. They failed. To be fair it was sat com a difficult hive to seige, but by the time they have seiges and the means to defend them you should have at least two onos. On most maps i would expect the hive to be lost as the wide corridors are a gift to the marines, however it is possible to take out seiges.
From what ive read and seen the ns team seems to hvae made three hives the end for marines. Similarly if the aliens fail to secure two hives and a decent amount of the map marines have the advantage. As it stands i love the current version. All the tech can be brought into play and the win is decided by map control, not who gets what first.
I think this is the situation they have been trying to acheive. Good job devs.
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sorry but you have no clue of what you are talking about, and here is why:
o Mines deny any skulk rush for a long time. Mines are cheap, get RFK which makes them basically a 6 net cost. 2 packs at beginning is enough to ward off any skulk rush attempt.
o Turtling for marines is generally a bad idea: it leaves map control for aliens. Fades can freely roam killing res nodes or locking marines in their spawn; while they delay the game for 2nd hive/oni/etc...
For now, the game flow is as it is:
1st phase (1 minute to 4 minute): skulks defends their nodes as best, while trying to pressure the marines nodes. Marines have a major advantage in this game due to mines, plus they have early arms lab upgrade (namely armor 1).
2nd phase: fades (for D) or lerks (for M) jump in and try to push off marines as well as killing their nodes back. 2nd hive is on its way.
3rd phase: with phase tech, marines generally try to assault on hive. From here the game flow can be completely different.