Maybe if this guy is playing a moderately skilled team, my tactics won't work. Me? Well, there's a reason I keep using them, they work. Maybe he should think about how many upgrades are involved with the marines versus the aliens as well as the average building time between the two teams. Marines at most have 16 upgrades, with more possible for every electrification and siege opportunity. Aliens at most have 3 upgrade opportunities plus their 4 evolutions. Granted, not all the upgrades can come at once, as they are spread out over each hive. Still, the marines have a lot more to research than aliens. This is why it is crucial to deny either side I'm playing against their resources. With aliens, just chomp down any nodes you can or prevent them from expanding. With marines, the shotgun is a deadly structure killer even starting with no research. A single marine on his own can sneak into an undefended hive and take out the unsuspecting aliens' resource tower. Get a squad of shotgunners and it's over if you know how to direct them. It's all in the way you play. Doesn't don't seem like Dead_Dan is capable of that kind of thinking.
Bottom line of this now offtopic thread is fade and onos are not overpowered. The marines still have a superior advantage given their range capability. You just have to be smart about playing.
<!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Feb 19 2004, 06:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Feb 19 2004, 06:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a skulk can kill HA and HMG since when?
Anyway the point is NS is supposed to be a dynamic team game with FPS components, it is not a PURE rts, that means that it is not 4 marines going against 1 zerg, it is 4 players playing as marines going against 1 player playing an alien. They have to balance it with that in mind.
You also have to keep in mind tech trees are there for a reason, just like 4 skulks have almost 0 chance to kill a 3/3 HA/HMG, 4 lmg la marines have almost 0 chance to kill an onos, make enough sense now? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contraire, 4 skulks have a very good chance of killing a single HA/HMG yet four LMG marines have a very low chance of killing an Onos. In order for HA to work they need to work together as a team, in that case they are a very powerful force, this type of advanced tech comes in very late in the game for marines. Onos and Fades on the other hand, are very powerful by themselves, and they come in much, much sooner. If you want it so that 4 marines can't beat an Onos then what are you supposed to do in small games?
<!--QuoteBegin-dot+Feb 19 2004, 06:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dot @ Feb 19 2004, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe if this guy is playing a moderately skilled team, my tactics won't work. Me? Well, there's a reason I keep using them, they work. Maybe he should think about how many upgrades are involved with the marines versus the aliens as well as the average building time between the two teams. Marines at most have 16 upgrades, with more possible for every electrification and siege opportunity. Aliens at most have 3 upgrade opportunities plus their 4 evolutions. Granted, not all the upgrades can come at once, as they are spread out over each hive. Still, the marines have a lot more to research than aliens. This is why it is crucial to deny either side I'm playing against their resources. With aliens, just chomp down any nodes you can or prevent them from expanding. With marines, the shotgun is a deadly structure killer even starting with no research. A single marine on his own can sneak into an undefended hive and take out the unsuspecting aliens' resource tower. Get a squad of shotgunners and it's over if you know how to direct them. It's all in the way you play. Doesn't don't seem like Dead_Dan is capable of that kind of thinking.
Bottom line of this now offtopic thread is fade and onos are not overpowered. The marines still have a superior advantage given their range capability. You just have to be smart about playing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, let's say you're playing a 5v5 game, 1 marine is commanding, 1 marine is supposed to go into the enemy hive to somehow take out their RT in their base (which by the time you kill it, they will have set up more) and then 1 to build base and then the other two to go around the entire map to setup/defend RTs from four skulks? Show me a demo of this happening because your tactic will have you dead in a matter of minutes from basic skulks. If an Onos or a Fade show up, you'll be slaughtered. The only way your tactic will win is if you take out the RT and the hive, which isn't going happen, let alone it shouldn't be the tactic against fades/onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Feb 19 2004, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Feb 19 2004, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's just no fun when you see that Onos and you KNOW you and your buds are going to die, it's just aggrovating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a n00b to NS (2 months), but I think thats what the NS creators mean by gritty. As far as I can tell, I think what they really mean by <i>gritty</i> is, in any given situation, you can't really tell if you are going to survive or not. I've encountered flocks of skulks and cleaned every one of those dirty little things. I've also been taken out by a single skulk on some random encounter...
As for fade and onos, shotguns just aren't good enough. With lvl 3 and decent armor upgrades, shotguns are almost adequate for fades.
n00bs tend to go rambo and lose the nicer high-power guns like HMG or GL. Therefore, if you are playing on pubs where n00b concentration is high, it is important to clean the map before they grab ANY additional hives. Period. This bypasses the danger of having to deal with most higher lifeforms.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Feb 19 2004, 06:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Feb 19 2004, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On the contraire, 4 skulks have a very good chance of killing a single HA/HMG... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If 4 skulks ambush a lone heavy armor heavy gunner, then yes they have a good chance of killing him. The problem with this hypothetical is unless a heavy train was decimated for some reason, the single heavy guy should not be alone. In addition, if these skulks are not ambushing him, a heavy machinegun is more than capable of ripping 4 skulks no matter what the upgrades to shreds. This would of course go to aiming skill, which varies with each player. What's yours like?
<!--QuoteBegin-dot+Feb 19 2004, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dot @ Feb 19 2004, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Feb 19 2004, 06:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Feb 19 2004, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On the contraire, 4 skulks have a very good chance of killing a single HA/HMG... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If 4 skulks ambush a lone heavy armor heavy gunner, then yes they have a good chance of killing him. The problem with this hypothetical is unless a heavy train was decimated for some reason, the single heavy guy should not be alone. In addition, if these skulks are not ambushing him, a heavy machinegun is more than capable of ripping 4 skulks no matter what the upgrades to shreds. This would of course go to aiming skill, which varies with each player. What's yours like? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was just trying to point out how it is very possible for an average 60 res HA to be decimated by 4 good skulks. On the other hand, an average 75 res alien Onos is many, many, many times harder to take out even with 4 very skilled marines.
Not if those skulks had focus cloak and carapace upgrades. Then yes the HA will die very quickly if ambushed by 4 skulks. If HMG/HA can see skulks coming then the skulks are just kamakazying.
I believe the Onos is overpowered in certain situations and underpowered in others. There's no way to balance it perfectly given the dynamics of how NS works. What I do is exploit the situations where the Onos is overpowered and avoid the situations where it's underpowered. Doing that, I've never considered the Onos weak even in Beta 1.
Maybe instead of an improvement of armor based on the # of hives you have, allow multiple upgrades per chamber limited by # of chambers and # of hives. This allows higher tech for a higher cost and makes it easier to balance classic with combat in mind.
Anyway, the Onos is just another one of those reasons why small team games just don't work. There just aren't enough marines on the field to take them down. (especially with stomp and devour in use) In large games there's more than enough. Makes you wonder why anyone would want to play a game of NS below or above 10-18 players.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Feb 19 2004, 07:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Feb 19 2004, 07:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, let's say you're playing a 5v5 game, 1 marine is commanding, 1 marine is supposed to go into the enemy hive to somehow take out their RT in their base (which by the time you kill it, they will have set up more) and then 1 to build base and then the other two to go around the entire map to setup/defend RTs from four skulks? Show me a demo of this happening because your tactic will have you dead in a matter of minutes from basic skulks. If an Onos or a Fade show up, you'll be slaughtered. The only way your tactic will win is if you take out the RT and the hive, which isn't going happen, let alone it shouldn't be the tactic against fades/onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See, the key here is all about tactics, Mr. I Know Everything As Opposed To Everyone Else. You get your squad, let's say they are at least capable of handling themselves in a fight, and they set up the basic electrified ip, tf, and armory in base. You send them out with as many shotguns you can to start on the nearest resource node. Most likely, you'll have run into a few skulks here and there and you'll have a little bit to start on your first resource node depending on how long it takes you to do this. You get your node, and send them on their merry way in the direction of their hive (please don't tell me you don't know how to scout as commander for hives). Repeat the process as you come across resource nodes, electrifying when you get the resources, and take out the nodes you do come across. It's very simple and yet very effective. If you're lucky, you come across the gorge or gorges and assuming these are competent marines vs. competent gorges, the marines will still slaughter them.
My tactic is for soldifying an early game win, yet still drawing it out for full researching. My base may be left out in the open on the off chance a big class does attack, but by the time I allow that to happen, I have mine presents or turrets I've built myself waiting for them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Feb 19 2004, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Feb 19 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was just trying to point out how it is very possible for an average 60 res HA to be decimated by 4 good skulks. On the other hand, an average 75 res alien Onos is many, many, many times harder to take out even with 4 very skilled marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't get me wrong, Mr. Dead. I agree with you.
My thought about all this was that it should take a little longer to gestate into these larger alien forms. If you are going to nerf them, it makes sense to require longer to form them if they are so large and powerful. . . <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-dot+Feb 19 2004, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dot @ Feb 19 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Feb 19 2004, 07:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Feb 19 2004, 07:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, let's say you're playing a 5v5 game, 1 marine is commanding, 1 marine is supposed to go into the enemy hive to somehow take out their RT in their base (which by the time you kill it, they will have set up more) and then 1 to build base and then the other two to go around the entire map to setup/defend RTs from four skulks? Show me a demo of this happening because your tactic will have you dead in a matter of minutes from basic skulks. If an Onos or a Fade show up, you'll be slaughtered. The only way your tactic will win is if you take out the RT and the hive, which isn't going happen, let alone it shouldn't be the tactic against fades/onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See, the key here is all about tactics, Mr. I Know Everything As Opposed To Everyone Else. You get your squad, let's say they are at least capable of handling themselves in a fight, and they set up the basic electrified ip, tf, and armory in base. You send them out with as many shotguns you can to start on the nearest resource node. Most likely, you'll have run into a few skulks here and there and you'll have a little bit to start on your first resource node depending on how long it takes you to do this. You get your node, and send them on their merry way in the direction of their hive (please don't tell me you don't know how to scout as commander for hives). Repeat the process as you come across resource nodes, electrifying when you get the resources, and take out the nodes you do come across. It's very simple and yet very effective. If you're lucky, you come across the gorge or gorges and assuming these are competent marines vs. competent gorges, the marines will still slaughter them.
My tactic is for soldifying an early game win, yet still drawing it out for full researching. My base may be left out in the open on the off chance a big class does attack, but by the time I allow that to happen, I have mine presents or turrets I've built myself waiting for them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If this works so well then show me a demo because I have seen many (foiled) attempts at a shotgun rush. I don't know if you are the one playing on skilled servers because shotty rushes aren't this be all, end all tactic you think it is.
Honestly, I've never taken demos except once when I had to prove to a server admin they were being infested with a cheater. But hey, if it's that important to you, next time I play classic and win with this, sure I'll show you. Again, I say this, maybe YOU can't pull it off. I can. People have already said they think you need more experience. I'm inclined to agree, especially given your misconceptions about the fade and onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-dot+Feb 19 2004, 07:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dot @ Feb 19 2004, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, I've never taken demos except once when I had to prove to a server admin they were being infested with a cheater. But hey, if it's that important to you, next time I play classic and win with this, sure I'll show you. Again, I say this, maybe YOU can't pull it off. I can. People have already said they think you need more experience. I'm inclined to agree, especially given your misconceptions about the fade and onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The experience thing is just pure ignorance. I played the beta vigorously from the moment consties were let until the time it went public. I saw the transition that the Fade and the Onos underwent as the beta progressed. I am not the one who needs experience with this game, I have plently of it so just stop saying that because it is pure ignorance. If you're so blind that you think one attack and one tactic will always work and is the single counter to higher life forms, then you are the one who is in need of more experience with the game.
They aren't misconceptions either, they are based on what I have done and what I have seen done with the classes. Many times I have gone into the marine bases and slaughetered the entire team and it is a far cry from hard for whoever has been playing a long time.
Believe it or not, but there is something wrong when a good fade can come in 4 minutes into the game and put a screeching halt to a team of experienced marines. There is something wrong when you get a res**** who Onos early in the game and proceeds to make expansion for the marines impossible.
First, your 5v5 comparison is stacked in favor of aliens. Small games tend to go to aliens while large ones go to marines. In small games, you don't need to worry as much about roving RT hunters and with fewer aliens, the res comes in quicker. Play a 10v10 game and you'll see marines win a lot more due to very cost effective upgrades.
Second, a HA/HMG/Welder is 35 res total. That's one more res than a Lerk with two upgrades. Cost comparisons aren't particularly valuble in my opinion, since they don't take any strategy into account. If we're doing a straight res-for-res comparison, I could say that 7 shotguns easily beat an Onos and Shotguns aren't even top tech.
Lastly, your comparisons are all of a heavy resource investment for aliens against no resource investment for marines. Four free marines should not be able to beat 75 res worth of alien. If you want to beat the Onos, invest in some shotties. Four would probably do the trick. Each marine would have to get off 3 shots to take it down. That's 40 res whomping a 75 res alien, making up the res difference in teamwork.
Dead Dan, you do realise that virtually every person (including me) who has replied has completely disagreed with you. That is after 4 pages of replies. Are you really that stubborn?
All it takes is 1 level 3 HMG to kill an ono, and you won't even need a whole clip either <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mintman+Feb 19 2004, 07:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mintman @ Feb 19 2004, 07:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dead Dan, you do realise that virtually every person (including me) who has replied has completely disagreed with you. That is after 4 pages of replies. Are you really that stubborn? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, I am. Just got back from a few games which have just reinforced what I said. but I gotta make supper now...
I'd like to elaborate on how onos and fade are not overpowered. To expand on how the onos is a glorified bullet catcher, most of the time, the onos is seen coming from far away. The hitboxes redone makes nearly everything shot at the onos hit. Shotguns alone should be enough to take down the onos considering the marines don't just stand all clumped together. The idea is to surround the onos and make it miss while pumping it full of lead. You may lose one or two of them, but done right, you can still take it down. To be totally honest, stomp is not going to help the onos too much. It still comes down to range vs. melee. If heavy machineguns are in play, well it just solidifies the point even more. On fades, like I said before, if you know how to strafe and dodge, you can literally run circles around a fade. Personally, I'd rather have more than a light machinegun, but I'd make do. Plain vanilla marine against a fade has very little chance though, but that's the way it should be. Marines are best in teamwork, so they shouldn't be alone. It still does come down to range vs. melee though; if you can keep your distance, the fade still isn't a big problem because of its horrible lack of effective ranged weaponry. I personally feel the marines are too overpowered, and it's the aliens that have the problems. I have an easier time on marines than I do on alien.
Perhaps the answer doesn't boil down to experience but skill.
You could be a very skilled alien player, and just suck as a marine, regardless of your experience.
Hey, it happens. I know I'm more skilled as alien (gorge specifically) than marine.. though I'm getting better on both sides.
I don't think 4 LMGs should be able to take down an Onos, unless they've managed to get the drop on the Onos and have a long, clear field of fire on the thing. The thing is supposed to be a terror, after all, there's a reason it's called the Onos.
You apparantly do. So we have a difference of opinion. From what I'm seeing here on this forum, it appears your opinion is in the minority.
If onos and fades can drop like flies in Combat, they can drop like flies in Normal play.
The onos has had it's hitboxes fixed. It's able to be hit ANYWHERE you see on it. Same with the fade. The HMG doesn't need to aim, you point in the general direction and wait for the beast to die while holding the trigger down. Moreso with a group of HMG marines.
Probable cause of you thinking onos are so unballanced is that you've hardly seen them in play until the end of the game when marines are either at their worst or best. By that time, you either see them destroying everything and everyone continually or dropping like flies. Play combat. See how many onos die. Be enlightened.
[better yet play as a onos and see how hard it is to stay alive.]
for the love of god people, <span style='color:red'><b>PLAY BOTH SIDES EXTENSIVELY BEFORE YOU JUDGE SOMETHING!!!</b></span>
If you have EVER played a fade, you would know how difficult it is to blink in, swipe, get away, and come back and try to do it again. If you have EVER played a onos you would know how hard it is to try to avoid bullets, grenades, AND other players to try to devour that HA/GL marine and gore that LA/HMG to death.
[As well, <b>SCORES MEAN NOTHING</b> in a game where ability and finness is required. That fade may have been very lucky against a skilled team (or just simply lucky), or against a very newbular team, or both.]
damn, and i thought they made the fades of tissue instead of the steel 3.0 version really, it is so damned hard to stay alive as either onos or fade now ... though, once used to it, onos is indeed quite able to own a bit
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[better yet play as a onos and see how hard it is to stay alive.]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Quite easily, I must say, given that you have two hives and two upgrade chambers. I regularly go Onos after being an early Gorge. Like I said, I exploit the situations where the Onos is overpowered. Be smart about it and you can do a heck of alot of damage.
The only way to know if the Onos is underpowered is if we know what the Onos is intended for first.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
Everything is fine. If you think onos is strong, then u simply are playing with pretty bad players. Ive taken down onos single handly as a vanilla rine. As an onos, you see 2-3 rines, the onos runs. This is the case in clan matches(the more skilled players). Fades dont get more than 1 or 2 swipes before they have to gun it, thats enough time for medpacks, or the fade completely missing. Sry Dan, you may think you are a skilled player, but by the sounds of this, you are below average. sry. All these ppl that dissaggree with you see things this way, play on better servers.
Oh, and I know you are gonna say you are good cause you have been here since the beginning, so have I, and many other ppl. Doesn't make a difference.
Actually it isn't that hard to blink/swipe/flee...its all a matter of that single roll upwards on yer mouse scroll...with the Onos of course...its a bit harder to manuever into the base and do what Maveric said. I feel that the Onos and Fade are alot weaker in CO...NS they are pretty average...The only reason why people may think that the Onos and Fade are too strong may be ....I don't know...the lack of armor <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Maveric+Feb 19 2004, 09:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ Feb 19 2004, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> for the love of god people, <span style='color:red'><b>PLAY BOTH SIDES EXTENSIVELY BEFORE YOU JUDGE SOMETHING!!!</b></span>
If you have EVER played a fade, you would know how difficult it is to blink in, swipe, get away, and come back and try to do it again. If you have EVER played a onos you would know how hard it is to try to avoid bullets, grenades, AND other players to try to devour that HA/GL marine and gore that LA/HMG to death.
[As well, <b>SCORES MEAN NOTHING</b> in a game where ability and finness is required. That fade may have been very lucky against a skilled team (or just simply lucky), or against a very newbular team, or both.] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Seconded. I have had the exact opposite experience as Dead_Dan. 7/10 alien games I play end in utter and complete annihilation of the Kharaa team. Their hives are ground to dust, leaving a pitiful 3 One Hive Onii, who are then ground to dust themselves. Sometimes the marines add insult to injury and tease the onii by pretending to fight them, but instead simply drawing them away so they can siege the hive. All in all, my 3.0 Kharaa experience has been very depressing as of late. So maybe your disturbing marine experience balances out my disturbing alien experience, and it is all karma... Anyway it is good to hear that somewhere out there, marines are dieing...
Comments
Bottom line of this now offtopic thread is fade and onos are not overpowered. The marines still have a superior advantage given their range capability. You just have to be smart about playing.
Anyway the point is NS is supposed to be a dynamic team game with FPS components, it is not a PURE rts, that means that it is not 4 marines going against 1 zerg, it is 4 players playing as marines going against 1 player playing an alien. They have to balance it with that in mind.
You also have to keep in mind tech trees are there for a reason, just like 4 skulks have almost 0 chance to kill a 3/3 HA/HMG, 4 lmg la marines have almost 0 chance to kill an onos, make enough sense now? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contraire, 4 skulks have a very good chance of killing a single HA/HMG yet four LMG marines have a very low chance of killing an Onos. In order for HA to work they need to work together as a team, in that case they are a very powerful force, this type of advanced tech comes in very late in the game for marines. Onos and Fades on the other hand, are very powerful by themselves, and they come in much, much sooner. If you want it so that 4 marines can't beat an Onos then what are you supposed to do in small games?
Bottom line of this now offtopic thread is fade and onos are not overpowered. The marines still have a superior advantage given their range capability. You just have to be smart about playing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, let's say you're playing a 5v5 game, 1 marine is commanding, 1 marine is supposed to go into the enemy hive to somehow take out their RT in their base (which by the time you kill it, they will have set up more) and then 1 to build base and then the other two to go around the entire map to setup/defend RTs from four skulks? Show me a demo of this happening because your tactic will have you dead in a matter of minutes from basic skulks. If an Onos or a Fade show up, you'll be slaughtered. The only way your tactic will win is if you take out the RT and the hive, which isn't going happen, let alone it shouldn't be the tactic against fades/onos.
I'm a n00b to NS (2 months), but I think thats what the NS creators mean by gritty. As far as I can tell, I think what they really mean by <i>gritty</i> is, in any given situation, you can't really tell if you are going to survive or not. I've encountered flocks of skulks and cleaned every one of those dirty little things. I've also been taken out by a single skulk on some random encounter...
As for fade and onos, shotguns just aren't good enough. With lvl 3 and decent armor upgrades, shotguns are almost adequate for fades.
n00bs tend to go rambo and lose the nicer high-power guns like HMG or GL. Therefore, if you are playing on pubs where n00b concentration is high, it is important to clean the map before they grab ANY additional hives. Period. This bypasses the danger of having to deal with most higher lifeforms.
If 4 skulks ambush a lone heavy armor heavy gunner, then yes they have a good chance of killing him. The problem with this hypothetical is unless a heavy train was decimated for some reason, the single heavy guy should not be alone. In addition, if these skulks are not ambushing him, a heavy machinegun is more than capable of ripping 4 skulks no matter what the upgrades to shreds. This would of course go to aiming skill, which varies with each player. What's yours like?
If 4 skulks ambush a lone heavy armor heavy gunner, then yes they have a good chance of killing him. The problem with this hypothetical is unless a heavy train was decimated for some reason, the single heavy guy should not be alone. In addition, if these skulks are not ambushing him, a heavy machinegun is more than capable of ripping 4 skulks no matter what the upgrades to shreds. This would of course go to aiming skill, which varies with each player. What's yours like? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just trying to point out how it is very possible for an average 60 res HA to be decimated by 4 good skulks. On the other hand, an average 75 res alien Onos is many, many, many times harder to take out even with 4 very skilled marines.
HMG + HA= less than 60 res to let you know
Maybe instead of an improvement of armor based on the # of hives you have, allow multiple upgrades per chamber limited by # of chambers and # of hives. This allows higher tech for a higher cost and makes it easier to balance classic with combat in mind.
Anyway, the Onos is just another one of those reasons why small team games just don't work. There just aren't enough marines on the field to take them down. (especially with stomp and devour in use) In large games there's more than enough. Makes you wonder why anyone would want to play a game of NS below or above 10-18 players.
See, the key here is all about tactics, Mr. I Know Everything As Opposed To Everyone Else. You get your squad, let's say they are at least capable of handling themselves in a fight, and they set up the basic electrified ip, tf, and armory in base. You send them out with as many shotguns you can to start on the nearest resource node. Most likely, you'll have run into a few skulks here and there and you'll have a little bit to start on your first resource node depending on how long it takes you to do this. You get your node, and send them on their merry way in the direction of their hive (please don't tell me you don't know how to scout as commander for hives). Repeat the process as you come across resource nodes, electrifying when you get the resources, and take out the nodes you do come across. It's very simple and yet very effective. If you're lucky, you come across the gorge or gorges and assuming these are competent marines vs. competent gorges, the marines will still slaughter them.
My tactic is for soldifying an early game win, yet still drawing it out for full researching. My base may be left out in the open on the off chance a big class does attack, but by the time I allow that to happen, I have mine presents or turrets I've built myself waiting for them.
Don't get me wrong, Mr. Dead. I agree with you.
My thought about all this was that it should take a little longer to gestate into these larger alien forms. If you are going to nerf them, it makes sense to require longer to form them if they are so large and powerful. . . <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
See, the key here is all about tactics, Mr. I Know Everything As Opposed To Everyone Else. You get your squad, let's say they are at least capable of handling themselves in a fight, and they set up the basic electrified ip, tf, and armory in base. You send them out with as many shotguns you can to start on the nearest resource node. Most likely, you'll have run into a few skulks here and there and you'll have a little bit to start on your first resource node depending on how long it takes you to do this. You get your node, and send them on their merry way in the direction of their hive (please don't tell me you don't know how to scout as commander for hives). Repeat the process as you come across resource nodes, electrifying when you get the resources, and take out the nodes you do come across. It's very simple and yet very effective. If you're lucky, you come across the gorge or gorges and assuming these are competent marines vs. competent gorges, the marines will still slaughter them.
My tactic is for soldifying an early game win, yet still drawing it out for full researching. My base may be left out in the open on the off chance a big class does attack, but by the time I allow that to happen, I have mine presents or turrets I've built myself waiting for them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this works so well then show me a demo because I have seen many (foiled) attempts at a shotgun rush. I don't know if you are the one playing on skilled servers because shotty rushes aren't this be all, end all tactic you think it is.
The experience thing is just pure ignorance. I played the beta vigorously from the moment consties were let until the time it went public. I saw the transition that the Fade and the Onos underwent as the beta progressed. I am not the one who needs experience with this game, I have plently of it so just stop saying that because it is pure ignorance. If you're so blind that you think one attack and one tactic will always work and is the single counter to higher life forms, then you are the one who is in need of more experience with the game.
They aren't misconceptions either, they are based on what I have done and what I have seen done with the classes. Many times I have gone into the marine bases and slaughetered the entire team and it is a far cry from hard for whoever has been playing a long time.
First, your 5v5 comparison is stacked in favor of aliens. Small games tend to go to aliens while large ones go to marines. In small games, you don't need to worry as much about roving RT hunters and with fewer aliens, the res comes in quicker. Play a 10v10 game and you'll see marines win a lot more due to very cost effective upgrades.
Second, a HA/HMG/Welder is 35 res total. That's one more res than a Lerk with two upgrades. Cost comparisons aren't particularly valuble in my opinion, since they don't take any strategy into account. If we're doing a straight res-for-res comparison, I could say that 7 shotguns easily beat an Onos and Shotguns aren't even top tech.
Lastly, your comparisons are all of a heavy resource investment for aliens against no resource investment for marines. Four free marines should not be able to beat 75 res worth of alien. If you want to beat the Onos, invest in some shotties. Four would probably do the trick. Each marine would have to get off 3 shots to take it down. That's 40 res whomping a 75 res alien, making up the res difference in teamwork.
yes, I am. Just got back from a few games which have just reinforced what I said. but I gotta make supper now...
.
You could be a very skilled alien player, and just suck as a marine, regardless of your experience.
Hey, it happens. I know I'm more skilled as alien (gorge specifically) than marine.. though I'm getting better on both sides.
I don't think 4 LMGs should be able to take down an Onos, unless they've managed to get the drop on the Onos and have a long, clear field of fire on the thing. The thing is supposed to be a terror, after all, there's a reason it's called the Onos.
You apparantly do. So we have a difference of opinion. From what I'm seeing here on this forum, it appears your opinion is in the minority.
The onos has had it's hitboxes fixed. It's able to be hit ANYWHERE you see on it. Same with the fade. The HMG doesn't need to aim, you point in the general direction and wait for the beast to die while holding the trigger down. Moreso with a group of HMG marines.
Probable cause of you thinking onos are so unballanced is that you've hardly seen them in play until the end of the game when marines are either at their worst or best. By that time, you either see them destroying everything and everyone continually or dropping like flies. Play combat. See how many onos die. Be enlightened.
[better yet play as a onos and see how hard it is to stay alive.]
<span style='color:red'>|:^ |</span>
If you have EVER played a fade, you would know how difficult it is to blink in, swipe, get away, and come back and try to do it again. If you have EVER played a onos you would know how hard it is to try to avoid bullets, grenades, AND other players to try to devour that HA/GL marine and gore that LA/HMG to death.
[As well, <b>SCORES MEAN NOTHING</b> in a game where ability and finness is required. That fade may have been very lucky against a skilled team (or just simply lucky), or against a very newbular team, or both.]
really, it is so damned hard to stay alive as either onos or fade now ...
though, once used to it, onos is indeed quite able to own a bit
The only way to know if the Onos is underpowered is if we know what the Onos is intended for first.
Oh, and I know you are gonna say you are good cause you have been here since the beginning, so have I, and many other ppl. Doesn't make a difference.
If you have EVER played a fade, you would know how difficult it is to blink in, swipe, get away, and come back and try to do it again. If you have EVER played a onos you would know how hard it is to try to avoid bullets, grenades, AND other players to try to devour that HA/GL marine and gore that LA/HMG to death.
[As well, <b>SCORES MEAN NOTHING</b> in a game where ability and finness is required. That fade may have been very lucky against a skilled team (or just simply lucky), or against a very newbular team, or both.] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded. I have had the exact opposite experience as Dead_Dan. 7/10 alien games I play end in utter and complete annihilation of the Kharaa team. Their hives are ground to dust, leaving a pitiful 3 One Hive Onii, who are then ground to dust themselves. Sometimes the marines add insult to injury and tease the onii by pretending to fight them, but instead simply drawing them away so they can siege the hive. All in all, my 3.0 Kharaa experience has been very depressing as of late. So maybe your disturbing marine experience balances out my disturbing alien experience, and it is all karma... Anyway it is good to hear that somewhere out there, marines are dieing...