Hive 3 Aliens
Schmurfy
Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16322Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16322Members, Constellation
In my opinion, when aliens manage to get 3 hives up they should win.
Now just at the 3rd hive weapons we have:
xenocide & webs & primal scream: no great problems with these ones
acid rocket: funny but nearly useless, i think damages should be far more powerfull
charge: just one thing to say: lol, what are we supposed to do with this ? it is more than useless in its current form to attack marines, it should deal far more damage too, it is longer to kill a marine with it than with first attack...
Now just at the 3rd hive weapons we have:
xenocide & webs & primal scream: no great problems with these ones
acid rocket: funny but nearly useless, i think damages should be far more powerfull
charge: just one thing to say: lol, what are we supposed to do with this ? it is more than useless in its current form to attack marines, it should deal far more damage too, it is longer to kill a marine with it than with first attack...
Comments
- Xenocide: Cannot kill an a1 marine at close range. This is the peak of vanilla alien vs. a vanilla marine after about three minutes in the game. (the time to build arms lab/research a1) This is bad. Xenocide should kill light a3's IF it goes off right next to them.
- Webs: Useful. Continually nerfed to the point where you can hardly use them to hold an area as you run out too quickly when some newbie spams them all over the hive on the other side of the map. Plus they can now be totally countered by a 5 res welder, or a free (after research) hand grenade, or a GL.
- Primal Scream: Should be the alien catpack plus some. Up adren, make aliens move and attack faster, regen health even.
- Acid Rocket: ... this is not even worth discussing. The changes are insulting, it's being nerfed when it should be upgraded. It's totally worthless right now.
- Charge: Otherwise known as 'method for getting across the map quickly'. Or, for the daring 'method for running into MS, trying to devour, missing because devour is wonky, and then running out of adrenaline and getting killed on the way towards the door'. There have been many suggestions to fix this. Instant damage on contact and huge knockback is where we could start, and then consider building destruction from there. Right now trying to take down a building with charge is like trying to balance on a butter coated rope.
Before you scream OMG OVERPOWERED AAGH! Consider that this is three hives. This is total map control. This is the point when the marines should have almost no comeback chance. Instead what we currently find is that this is the point where marines turtle in base spamming GLs all over the place while the alien team cowers in the hallway realizing that they just don't have anything powerful enough to compete. It's aggravating. It's a time waster. It's not fun for either team.
Except for the limit of 30 per *entire map* and no way to remove stupid webs.
It's true though that alien weapons are sorely lacking in 'punch', and add to this that skulks had their armor reduced and you have a weak alien team try to stop what is usually a marine win.
My thoughts:
Xenocide: I'd like to see xeno removed replaced with primal scream. I think a faster biting skulk would be far deadlier than a 'throw your exploding body at the marines and hope it hits'. Especially since, as you noted, a xeno skulk does not kill upgraded or HA marines, and it is at that time that you NEED them to dish out serious damage.
Webs: I'd like to see the map limit lifted. Yeah that can lead to spammage, but as long as you have an AREA limit in place the spamming will be limited selected areas which can be overcome with welders. For a 3rd hive weapon it SHOULD be a nuisance, the map limit only makes it worthess overall.
Primal Scream: With primal scream on the skulk I would love to see the lerk get back the spike in slot #2 and push spores back to #4 as it was 'way back when'. Then make the 3rd hive 'spore' gun deadly against all marines, with the exception of HA who would take armor damage only. However armor damage would leave them vulerable to other aliens, which they are not now.
Acid rocket: Yeah I agree, it's a joke. You sit there firing volley after volley and it doesn't do squat. A skulk can deal damage much faster than a fade ever could with acid rocket. I'd love to see damage increased and a bigger chance to 'push' the marine with each shot. A 3rd hive weapon SHOULD be deadly.
Charge: I laughed when I read the "get around the map quickly remark" since it is so true. Who uses it anymore? It doesn't deal significant damage compared to marines and so most times you will be dead before you take out one marine let alone more than one. Yet this is a 3rd hive weapon? Couple this with a buggy devour and you have the 'baddest' alien only able to use two if their weapons.
I guess it will come down to whether Charlie really wants to bring true balance to the alien team. I know and understand he does his best, but we all know that marines are his baby, and the aliens tend to get neglected.
Perhaps a future build may hold out some hope for a more balanced game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
I think balance will be an issue intil combat and classic are unhooked and allowed to grow and be balanced independantly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think balance will be an issue intil combat and classic are unhooked and allowed to grow and be balanced independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. It will be harder to balance, but it's still possible. There are many elements of gameplay in which combat and classic differ. These elements can be tweaked and the object being balanced can be tweaked to take advantage of these elements.
I have absolutely no problem with Xenocide. It is a free weapon that doesn't require aiming and does substantial damage over a wide area, and although a single Xenocide will only kill LAs, and generally only if they have been Spore weakened first, a small team of Skulks Xenoing together can deal massive damages.
Do the math. 2 Skulks = 400 damage = all LAs dead, plus substantial damage to HAs and any nearby buildings (2x damage vs buildings)
3 skulks = 600 damage = HA1 dead, HA2 and 3 severely weakened for finishing by higher classes
4 skulks = 800 damage = any marine dead, 1600 vs buildings = all turrets nearby dead + heavy damage to other buildings like TFs, Armory, etc
Xeno is very much a team weapon, and is just fine as it is. I will agree to the complaints about AR and Charge though...but who wouldn't?
1. I'm pretty sure xeno no longer does blast damage.
2. Xeno, webs, and primal scream should all be quite nice, but not game-enders. It's certainly possible for the aliens to have 3 hives but poor map control. Conversely, AR and charge should be game-enders, because they imply that the aliens have both hive and resource control.
but AR is pathetic . as a test me a lvl 10 fade with AR asked a few buddies to stand still while i nuked them with adren and AR in combat. They were lvl 10, 5 and 1 respectively. The lvl 1 naturally died in 2 shots, the lvl 5 in 4 , 7 with resupply. the lvl 10 with resupply could not be killed in 1 entire energy bar.. they were all LA , the lvl 10 had armor 2. Really, if he was a Jper i wouldnt be able to kill him unless he got stuck somewhere..
Charge is mainly for Onii amusement rather than an attacking weapon. We use it occasionally to distract marines while we are siegin the final base but really other than that, it sucks ****.
Really if combat is the problem then they just have to limit when u can buy lvl 3 abilities like when yer lvl 8 or above only.
At the very least, let xeno do blast damage, AR do blast damage, and charge do blast damage, to make them good at what they're supposed to do (while bearly touching combat balance)
i am ok with xeno. its damage is well balanced imo. its blast radius is ok..in fact, i feel teh skulk is teh most balanced unit without requring any major changes to it
hive 3 aliens give marines fear....but if hive3 aliens are solo rambos vs a team of marines, teh marines can still win..
the higher teh teamwork with higher tech level, teh faster the enemy loses and the faster u win. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Aliens are SUPPOSED to be the "rambo" team. That was the original design goal.
teamwork is required in both sides imo.. aliens requiers teamwork to allow a certain amt to go gorge to build etc..
Aliens may be OK at ramboing, but they still do better when they work in teams. This is especially true of Xenocide, which as had been pointed out will kill essentially nothing in 1 shot, but which is truly devastating when fired off several times...which demands teamwork because each Xenoing skulk dies and therefore can only use it once.
Also, AR, and presumably marine explosive weapons, does exactly 1/3 self damage at point blank range. Just in case anyone cares. 1/2 would be better.
These two modes are far too diferrent :\
And for xenocide, maybe it is fun and balanced in combat but not really used in classic.
It can kill a marine lvl0 in one hit, good. But when aliens have 3 hives marines are far from lvl0 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
only effective use is xeno rush, i have seen this only once in a pcw.
Xenocide -- I think this could use a minor tweak. Either giving back blast damage or increasing the standard damage to be able to kill an armor2 marine would be good. The latter idea would also give marines an incentive to get HA and/or armor3 in combat.
Webs -- With the limit and shortened sticky time, combined with the ease of clearing out webbed areas, I think they could use a boost. Gorges could use the help, considering a lot of people gorge just because it comes down to a "gorge or die" scenario. Giving webs a greater use could elevate gorges beyond simple chamber/heal monkey.
Primal Scream -- Too short. Making it last longer would be adequate.
Acid Rocket -- Already discussed at length. When it takes 120 acid rockets to take down a TF or 25 to kill an armor2 HA, it's time to examine the #2 alien's top ability. I don't think that blast damage is really appropriate for Fades. If that was the direction that Flay wanted, I think that Fades would still have bilebombs.
Charge -- Try 500 damage/second, for starters. Then adjust from there. With Onos rolling off of marines and gore being more effective vs. buildings, and the cost of 3 hive ability Onos in combat, the only incentive to use charge is to travel quickly or use it to escape.
Third hive, as in ultimate ability for the fade right? Right now it would be a mediocre 2nd hive weapon...
How can we change that? Well let me ask you something? Have you ever had a group of marines just... oh i dunno, retreat into thier base and sit there like a TURTLE hiding in it's protective shell? How about increasing the Acid rocket's ability to damage BUILDINGS! YES BUILDINGS! Keep the marine damage as it is right now, but for hitting buildings make it 3... no wait, FOUR TIMES MORE POWERFUL ON BUILDINGS!
Right now a single marine welding a turret will demolish all hope for a fade to kill it with acid rockets. This IMO is wrong. We have seen threads here about "Alien Siege weapons"... Some good some bad, but THIS right here... can be the closest thing to siege the aliens could get. Powerful on buildings and long range capabilities make it perfect for those times onos just is to slow to make it to the marine base.
Some are worried about making acid rocket better through damage increases. Some have remembered a 1.0X tactic in which a large number of fades throw large numbers of acid rockets at marines. This killed them quite quickly.
This tactic could still be valid. right now acid rockets are more about quantity over quality... and several fades could make the marine's day quite painful. However, instead of increasing base damage of Acid rocket (thus making the previous tactic overpowered... maybe resulting in another acid rocket nerf in the future)... Please consider making it hurt buildings more.
Charge: I once thought that charge damage should be either the movespeed or a multipul of the movespeed. Say the onos with cerelity goes 300 max speed (which it most likely doesn't, but this is just an example). he runs into a group of marines in the same situation as listed above... he hits the first marine, 300 damage is instantly done to the marine and the onos move speed is reduced to 0 (for how long can be tested, NOT TO LONG!) he then continues towards the next marine building up speed.
Another thing you could consider is change how the onos picks up speed. Right now i believe it takes literally seconds to reach full speed... now something as big as an onos would seem to me something that would take some distance to pick up speed. This can be changed to balance the "ultimate" ability for the onos.
Same thing can be done with Leap (which also lacks in damage dealing capabilities), and because leap throws you forward at a set speed, balancing it would be easy. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I like Charge the ability, it really fits the onos... but right now it sucks. Please realise that damage over time abilities suck unless you can shoot them (spores) and run away letting the damage soak into the rines.
Web: IMO with the addition of the ability to weld off webbing (IE: Welding people webbed to free them) Web was ultimately balanced.... Untill i read the change for the map limit. they cut it in half... and before it was a problem! IMO the web limit should be infinite ( i think it used to be), and have the area limit control the use of web. Not like it is hard to get rid of webbing, just run forward with a welder... OMG! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Also, if the gorge has enough time to web spam the entire map, then let him do so, it fits the feel of an alien infesting the entire map.
If the web limit stays, you really REALLY should consider having a button to push that liquifies all webbing on the map (which includes those laid by other gorges). Hard to lame considering your at endgame, and the lamer worked by your side all game to win.
Xenocide: I really liked the idea of making primal a skulk ability. Right now (as stated) Xeno is a team ability which I am 50/50 on. i still wouldn't mind seeing changes to it if someone thought up a good idea.
Primal: Used to open the CC faster... thats about it. It needs something to make it "3rd hive worthy"
One of the best (relatively) , leap , does next to no damage , to the point that killing with leap is <i>harder than with parasites</i>.
Bile bomb is about the only decent (not nerfed) 2 hive ability.
Umbra doesn't block enough bullets and lasts for 6 seconds , a lerk needs adren to keep his teammates protected by continuously shooting umbra clouds. It should last 7-8 seconds and go back to blocking 3 bullets out of 4 or more , even if it means a slightly increased stamina cost.
Metabolize now does an MC like effect , but it can't replace regeneration in any way. Hive 2 cara fades still regenerate faster by returning to the hive even from the marine start. Metabolize should heal faster than regen , even if it means a greater initial stamina cost.
Stomp has been nerfed too much. It's the weakest onos upgrade in Combat , with Charge of course. The effect duration itself is insignificant , the marines are more disoriented by the stomp flash. If it were removed , Stomp would be next to useless. Marines who keep their strafing keys pressed can immediately dodge onos attacks , but thanks to the Gore range light marines aren't unkillable. But devouring even a lone HA HMG is quite a challenge nowadays.
1.5 seconds stun effect would be a good compromise between the 2.0 and 3.0 levels. It should be at least longer than 1.2 , but probably a bit shorter than 2 (stomp devour rampages) , that way it would really help alien teammates.
Xenocide's range is fine , but right now it's just as effective as focus bites (much weaker when armor upgrades kick in) so its damage should be increased to match the new armor values.
Webs have been horribly nerfed. The only way a lone hive 3 gorge can kill a rambo marine is to keep hitting him directly with webs , and use focus spit ... if the said rambo has a level 2 or 3 armor then the gorge also needs adren to keep him webbed. Now tell me you've ever seen a focus adren gorge. The webbing duration and limit should be unnerfed all the way.
Primal Scream takes way too much stamina for an extremely short boost. Not even an adren lerk can keep his teammates boosted and protected under umbra. With the stamina bug (when short on stamina , the bar is depleted but the ability doesn't work) it is frustrating to use. The boost should last much longer to let the lerk do something else...
Acid rocket , well it's been discussed with passion. Worthless ability in the beta 2-3.
Same with Charge , cf the previous posts in this thread. Much less effective than Gore.
In my humble opinion , all of theses abilities should be <b>dramatically</b> improved. They're supposed to be stronger than alien upgrades (I think) so why not make them cost 2 levels in Combat , if they're effective enough. The hive res/time cost might be increased slightly , too.
If you need 8 levels to be an un-upgraded Onos then you would never get the third hive ability as an Onos. For it to work they would also have to raise the maximum level to at least 11, 12 sounds like a better limit though. Then both teams would max out Marines could get level 3 everything and a HMG.
I think this would be great fun.
--Xeno gets back Blast damage
--Web gets map/area limits raised again
--Primal Scream gets longer duration
--AR increase damage substantially
--Charge increase damage substantially
We need webs to slowly disolve or something.
If charge was "teh ownage" then everyone would want it.