Screw Combat

Dashel · February 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Don't leave NS out in the cold</div> NS is the reason I started playing this marvelous little gem of a mod. Unfortunately, with the release of 3.0 I'm starting to get the feeling that it is a second class citizen compared to NS-Combat.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> Combat

Cpt_Krunch · February 2004

Yep i fell excactly like you do.

Imagine how NS would be now if all the time they spent on combat was put on classic instead.

Combat feels like it's only a dumbed down version to attract new ppl from the deathmatch crowd.

I think theyre are plenty of games like CS, DoD Q3, UT.

but not enough like NS.....

Sudzz · February 2004

Yeah, I started playing NS because it was different from those other mods, this one is fun. Now combat is here... just attracks more people from the deathmatch crowd. Just not the same. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

semipsychotic · February 2004

Look on the bright side. All of the deathmatch people are playing combat now. Some used to play Classic and it mucked things up a lot occasionally.

V_MAN · February 2004

Combats okay for 5 minutes but it gets boring very quickly.

Dashel · February 2004

Hehe Semi, but god forbid that the map changes to a ns map while they are on.

Its hard for some to go from 'me' to 'we'. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

Scribbles · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Feb 11 2004, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Combats okay for 5 minutes but it gets boring very quickly.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
My sentiments exactly.

Status_Quo · February 2004

Combat is new and will naturally need more attention for a while. What you're saying sounds a lot like a child complaining because its parents spend more time on the baby than on the older child. No offense intended with that, it is just a very accurate metaphor. However, just like the child in the metaphor is not loved less by the parents, classic NS won't be abandoned just because the attention is on combat at the moment.

Regardless, I still hope combat will die a slow, fiery death.

Epidemic · February 2004

That's not true!!!!

weggy · February 2004

Actually, parents do the love the youngest child the most. If they tell you otherwise theyre lying.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

curlydave · February 2004

I completely agree for the same reasons mentioned.

Combat isn't unique at all, it's just another killspree mod like all the others. I'm not too fond about how about 75% of servers at any given time are running combat maps. I have a feelign that its point is to make NS more popular, and it may work in that regards.

But I agree, the time and effort should have been spent on improving NS, or creating a different gameplay mode that's unique like NS is, not another generic gameplay mode. At first when I heard of combat, I thought "great, now I can play a NS-like game on a LAN with my friends when we don't have enough people for a real game. The team was advertising it like servers would run combat maps until enough people joined for a real game.

But no. Combat's taken over.

BobTheJanitor · February 2004

While I wouldn't have worded it exactly like that, yes, combat is a problem. For the sake of combat, classic is becoming unbalanced. That is completely wrong in my mind. I'd vote for dumping combat entirely before I'd touch a thing in NS classic to balance combat. No one got into this mod for its fast-paced deathmatch style action. We got into this mod to <b>get away</b> from that.

Devs, please. Step back. Look at what you're doing. Is this REALLY a good idea?

Really?

sTuPiD_iTiaLiAn2k · February 2004

Wait I dont really see whats wrong with Combat. I've been playing NS from 1.04 and have been loyal. Though I rarely play under sTuPiD iTiaLiAn, I use an array of other nicks.

Back to the point, I see nothing wrong with Combat other than a new way to play NS. I don't understand why alot of people are complaining. If you don't like Combat, don't play it. Im sure their are servers that are only for Classic. But if your in a server with only five people, which would you rather play? Classic or Combat?

I would say Combat, for a fast game which is fun and requires not as much teamwork, but none the less, some team work to set the score. After more people join, then it will eventually change to an Classic map, and you can play Classic there...

I would have to say that Classic games aren't really much fun unless you have 7+ people on EACH TEAM.

I see some complaining that it takes away the Classic feel of NS from before 3.0.... but Classic still exists... so I don't know why your complaining...

Counter-Strike is an awesome game, and I used to play that hardcore before I came across Natural-Selection. It was a completley different experience being exposed to such a unique Mod for Half-Life. Only problem with CS is that practicully every Pub, there is no team.... just rambos. Thats why I joined a clan, in which we worked out strategys and "battle plans" if you will.

Then NS came and totally redifined the way I play any game.

By exposing these "CS lamers/rambo/1337" to just something like Combat, it will hopefully teach them on how to be a better team mate and such, and im sure they've atleast tried Classic.

If you dont like Classic or Combat then just don't play that type of game.

Nemesis_Zero · February 2004

Technically, I should lock this based on the mere fact that you are posting a thread on a topic already chewed on so throughoutly that it can only be described using the word 'liquid' by now, but what the hell:

A quick server scan of Steam reveals 425 NS 3.0 beta servers in total right now. Of them, 291 run co_ maps, the other rough third of 134 servers runs ns_ maps. Subtracting the attraction of the new, this already shows that classic NS is far from being abandoned by the players in favor of Combat.
Furthermore, limiting the search to occupied servers, we get to 185 servers, divided almost evenly between the two modes, with 85 co_ servers and 80 ns_ servers at this moment.
Seeing this, and considering the fact that Classic games tend to be bigger, the assumption that standard NS can't hold itself against the 'unwashed masses' of deathmatch players quickly becomes moot.

So much for the community side of things.

As for the devs and the development process, what makes you think developing NS and NS:C are exclusive to each other? Hell, both share big parts of the core gameplay. Code implementation, bughunting, and balancing is done simultaneously in most cases (yes, I know there are exceptions, note the 'most'). Combat isn't eating time away from Classic.

In conclusion, if you don't like Combat, fine, your choice. Pick one of those 80 servers and have fun with Classic.
If you don't like Classic, okedoke, jump into one of the other 85.
Personally, I enjoy both, so I win in any case <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Norml_E_High · February 2004

Combat isn't really all that bad. It seems to be doing what it was meant to as well. Making people better at fighting. Combat gives people a chance to get really good before playing regular NS. Sure it doesnt give them the skills that NS requires, but its a good headstart. You could have never gotten the experience you can get from combat playing NS all the time. In regular NS, you might never get a chance to be a fade, either because you always go grog for your team or games end too quickly. Well, now I can practice being a fade. You guys assuming combat will takeover regular NS are sadly mistaken. Combat is the new addition to NS. Ofcourse people will want to play that.

NeonSpyder · February 2004

not much more can be said, its all true, classic is everyones favourite. combat is a training program at best. and a distraction from classic at worse.

but.

combat is a good game to convert to classic ns. all the cs,DoD and whatever else, noobs will play ns-combat, and probobly accidentaly get thrown into a game of classic, and hey, they might like it. i think this is the main reason the team made combat, so NS could get a larger player base, and besides, all the Cs noobs will only be playing combat so we get the classic servers all to ourselves <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Umbraed_Monkey · February 2004

Ironic that the largest server on steam (32players) is a co_ only server. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> Thats the last time i check it, anyway.

On the other hand, I keep getting this feeling that combat is supposed to serve as a kind of "trojan horse". By being a mindless kill spree, its much easier to get the word of mouth around and get to places and people that it wouldnt otherwise reach. More people will try it, knowing that they can get fairly good pretty quickly, and its easier to describe than classic. (Natural-Selection? well, its like quake, and its like starcraft, but then...blah blah)

BlueNovember · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Feb 11 2004, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Ironic that the largest server on steam (32players) is a co_ only server. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> Thats the last time i check it, anyway.

On the other hand, I keep getting this feeling that combat is supposed to serve as a kind of "trojan horse". By being a mindless kill spree, its much easier to get the word of mouth around and get to places and people that it wouldnt otherwise reach. More people will try it, knowing that they can get fairly good pretty quickly, and its easier to describe than classic. (Natural-Selection? well, its like quake, and its like starcraft, but then...blah blah)  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Eh? How many ppl try Trojans to get the hang of viruses? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

But yeah, your point is the reason why the hard core ns players are just gritting their teeth and living with it. I sitll think that CO- only servers should be banned. That way a player is far more likely to *try* ns:classic. Ah well.

And 32 players would be insane on classic. Not sure if the aliens would stand a chance in combat too actually. Mind you, more targets. Hmm.

crono1 · February 2004

I was on a server today, i'd been waiting for a slot open for some time. Luckily for me the new map was the new ns_hera that I wanted to try. I joined the server and within 3 minutes the players were wittled down to 3. Try playing ns_hera with 3 people, obviously, you can't. And so the admin had to change the map to a co_ map just to get players in again. I've played Natural Selection for approx. 15 minutes today. I can normally be found playing something in excess of 4-7 hours? This is because all the European servers seem to be playing co_ maps in order to keep the crowd there. The newbs love Combat because it's easy to learn and "fun". It's fun for 3 minutes and then spawn/kill cycle gets tedious. Another thing I notice is that there is always a marine stack, it was bad in 2.01, but now it's even worse :< lots of servers have had to implement random team mods to stop the stacking. I'm fairly new to NS, I've been playing for little less than 2 months and I don't want to see the little, pretty game I love bow down and submit to this mainstream atrocity. I've vowed never to play a Combat game again.

Nemesis_Zero · February 2004

Back to the statistics, there's six NS_ servers with less than four players right now. Six.

Really, folks, I can understand you being frustrated over a certain game experience, but could you please try to differentiate between that one incident that left your blood boiling in the wrong way and the rest?

Dashel · February 2004

I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse here. I don't post here much and did not mean it as an insult to the devs who I am still in debt to for bringing us such a fantastic mod. I was just venting.

crono1 · February 2004

I'd like to, but I can't. I feel that Combat is affecting people's game playing in ns_* maps for the worse. Sure, your aim might be improving a little, but if you want aim, go play CS, I've heard it does miracles. The fact about the matter is there is so much careless alien playing on ns_* games now. Every game I see at least two lerks that just fly in to a room packed full of marines that think they can achieve something, <i>as if they have 7 evolution upgrades..</i> But they don't. Combat may be getting new people into the feel of NS (I disagree with this too), but they don't gain a major skill whilst in Combat. Skulking. How many new players have you seen stick as skulk for the duration of a combat game? I'd be surprised if you saw many except for the cloakers. They get the "wait around" exp because they can't kill anything and then instantly go to the next lifeform. Or, more often than not, they go for the cloak/focus. This isn't skulking. It's not even possible in ns_* so what good is it to a new player? If I was new again (I still am tbh) I would rather get the <i>feel of NS</i> in NS. If the method isn't broken, why fix it? :>

crono1 · February 2004

I also apologise if I'm offending any of the developers and/or players with my opinions, but it's what I feel. The effort put in to Combat must have been tremendous and I'm impressed with the innvative gameplay. I just feel that it's diverting attention away from the main event.

Nemesis_Zero · February 2004

Skim a little through the archived threads.
You'll find a lot of threads searching for structural reasons for the generally lowered quality of in-game behaviour around the release of 2.0 as well, and if you were able to read the laments in the PT forum from the first few days after 1.0s release...

The fact that many people behave like in a deathmatch in Classic has little to do with Co, it stems simply from them being new to NS. This is inevitable with a new version; just wait a while and you'll see it'll all balance out again.

Note by the way that the 'cloaker' skulks you are describing are following the perfectly adequate strategy of Skulk-ambushing, which can also be applied to regular NS.

[edit]BTW, Dashel/crono:
If someone has to apologize, it's me for my grumpy introduction to my first post. We <i>want</i> people to voice their opinion about the game, whichever way it may go. This is why we have these boards, after all.[/edit]

crono1 · February 2004

Cloaking is a very good example of the Skulk's 'ambusher' style, but the cloak/focus combo that is popular with the new players is impossible in ns_*. It would be a shame, however, if all these cloaking new players became nothing but one trick ponies in regular ns_*. Obviously, I wasn't around at the release of 2.0 and I'll take your word for it. I just hope your hypothesis is correct. The cockier type Lerks (sometimes even Fades and Oni) I was referring to before were not even new players on most of the games i've seen it happen. Some were even Vets. It's easy to forget that you're in an ns_* map with a couple of upgrades if one becomes too immersed in playing Combat regularly.. It's totally different game. I've heard complaints about CS screwing up their NS playing from respected players when they take a break and re-enter the game, what's so different about Combat to this? Of the two ns_* games i've played today (both on the neXt JarHedz plublic server FYI) they have been ridiculous 2 minute base chompings, because the marines didn't have a commander (I was on aliens to balance out the marine stack). Maybe this is a one off, but twice on the same server? Where are all the coms going too? Will the new players just go and play Combat for target practice? Building and commanding is where the real skill of NS lies, and Combat doesn't include any of it. :<

Nullzero · February 2004

As an avid Natural Selection player, I have to admit I've all but cut out ns_ from my daily diet.

Combat is fast paced, and has lots of action. What I find most appealing about it, however, is my fate is less reliant on the stupidity and greed of my fellow teammates. That is to say, I don't have to rely on the generousity of the commander to give me a shotgun... and I don't have to depend on my res-whoring alien teammates to evolve to gorge and throw down some resource nodes.

My fate is my own to make, and I can upgrade my character as I see fit.

Normal ns_ is still fun, but when I go back to play it, I always find myself wishing my teammates weren't so damn stupid...

-----
Nullzero

Entropiua · February 2004

I completely agree.

I was an avid *craft player before I picked up NS, and play NS because of the strategy elements. I'm the lerk who lurks in vents with Scent of Fear on and the minimap up, finding big friendlies to follow around and umbra, and sporing where the Scent of Fear blobs look like they're heading.

I can play deathmatch somewhere else. Please don't neglect the facets of the game that drew most of the players in the first place...

The_Angel_of_Death · February 2004

I gotta agree, I feel like I'm losing my favorite game due to the fact that the devs want to attract more players. I log on and see that more then half the servers I play on are on combat. I personally enjoy NS due to the fact that I HAD to work as a team or else I would end up dying a horrible death. This set NS apart from any other mods out there, play cs,dod,tfc, or any other and you will see that for the most part it is just every man for himself.
Now I get into a NS map and either everyone there is running off to find aliens to kill to get upgrades or else are voting to go to a combat map, if not just leaving to find one. Anyone else finding that the quality of players is going downhill?

BobTheJanitor · February 2004

The problem is not one of 'combat sucks' regardless of the rather forward way the original poster chose to title this thread. Combat is fine, I have fun in it, it's a perfect example of what it set out to be: fast paced, deathmatch style, twitch gaming. There is NOTHING wrong with that. I greatly enjoy it. Many of my favorite games are of this style.

The problem, rather, is the idea, whether perceived or factual, that NS Classic is becoming unbalanced in order to make NS Combat more balanced. There have been many arguments for improvements on alien third hive abilities. It seems that can't go in, as it would imbalance Combat where said abilites are only a few points away. (Acid Rocket springs immediately to mind) There were (and still are) problems with Fade and especially Onos health/armor balancing between Combat and Classic. These were solved with the rather uncomfortable solution of improving them somewhat, and lowering the cost of the Onos to compensate. Classic players don't want a cheaper, weaker onos. They want a powerful, expensive, game-ending Onos.

It truly feels as if our beloved, incredible NS is being slowly eroded in order to make concessions to a new game that, while enjoyable, is not the reason we came to love this game in the first place. Maybe these changes are temporary. Maybe there is a long term plan in the works that will appease all sides. But we can only go by what we see. And what we see in the directions that the latest betas have taken makes us worry. What is happening to our favorite game?

Cold_NiTe · February 2004

I have to say that the only argument I have with combat as of yet is its use as an F4 substitute. "On the losing team? Switch to co_!!" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> So far I've run into 4 games (out of the 7 I've played since 3.0 beta 2 was released) in which the losing team simply started a vote map and switched to combat before we could kill them...

F4ing was bad enough but... <i>Switching game modes??</i> After all it only takes one team's worth of votes and your headed for a map change.

Other than that, I pretty much enjoy both.

cybrangl · February 2004

I am not sure if Combat will have the long term draw of new players that is expected. I had some issues with the install of 3.0 (damn NortNa Anti-virus). When I finally got it installed, I jumped into a combat game because it was hyped so much. Needless to say, I popped into the middle of a game and was quickly frustrated because I had not hope of gaining exp. because everyone was levels above me. I died in an instant. Had I been a new player I probably would have gievn up and not come back thinking that it was "vetran stacked". As it turned out, I had better luck with the next game when I started with everyone else, but I quickly fell behind because I didn't yet know which combinations worked effectively in Combat. Again, as a persistant newbie, I would probably have left it and not come back. Of course that is me, but the people that would find combat exciting the first time would find classic "dull".

On a side note, I found that the human aimbots (very good reflex skills) were the ones who got the most enjoyment of the game because they got to get to the "useful" upgrades quicker, thus leaving everyone else far behind. This chasm between the players grew very quickly in each game I played and stayed that way. I often found myself the "bait" to some person behind me who got the kill and exp while the enemy chomped my bones or riddled me full of holes. I didn't see it encouraging any type of teamwork at all. In fact, quite the opposite as people vied for kills.

Screw Combat

Comments