What's So Great About Hives?
Go7
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2553Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2553Members
It seems to me that most Aliens don't use any of their 2nd/3rd Hive abilities well, so are Hives really that important? Especially if the first chamber is DC? I don't think they are a high priority, and Gorges should be sure that the team has at least 4 well-secured resource towers before even considering a Hive. The 40 res it takes to build a hive could go to build nearly 3 resource towers, which would greatly enhance the speed at which people go Fade, ... or a set of OC/DCs at the front lines, which can help players heal up or use as a Marine diversionary area.
For me, as a huge Lerk fan, Umbra is very fun to use and can greatly assist Fades and Onos. Umbra is also very effective at protecting OC nests. However, I'm definately an exception, as most Aliens ignore the Lerk, ignore their Umbra responsibilities, and thus the Hive goes to waste. And most Fades seem to be so effective with Regen that they don't really need to use Metabolise. Leaping Skulks are definately a "ace player-only" skill, most players cannot effectively use it.
This leaves one 2nd hive ability: Stomp. Extremely useful. But that seems to be the sole good/often-used abilities of all the extra Hive abilities. Plus Onos are very expensive and can be a risky gamble. So the abilities are not a big deal, I think, but most people build a 2nd hive to put up a 2nd type of chamber. Usually Movement. However, this too seems irrelevant. Celerity Skulks are usually not that much more effective. Adrenaline Lerks or Fades are not necessary.
So my opinion is.... most players are not that good with Skulks or Lerks, regardless of how many Hive abilities they have. However, they are all pretty effective with Fades and Onos, also regardless of how many hive abilities they have. Most Fades prefer Regen over anything coming from Movement chambers.
So I think a 40 res Hive can often be far less effective than the nearly 3 res towers, etc., it would buy otherwise. With more res, you have more Fades, and that's really all you need.
For me, as a huge Lerk fan, Umbra is very fun to use and can greatly assist Fades and Onos. Umbra is also very effective at protecting OC nests. However, I'm definately an exception, as most Aliens ignore the Lerk, ignore their Umbra responsibilities, and thus the Hive goes to waste. And most Fades seem to be so effective with Regen that they don't really need to use Metabolise. Leaping Skulks are definately a "ace player-only" skill, most players cannot effectively use it.
This leaves one 2nd hive ability: Stomp. Extremely useful. But that seems to be the sole good/often-used abilities of all the extra Hive abilities. Plus Onos are very expensive and can be a risky gamble. So the abilities are not a big deal, I think, but most people build a 2nd hive to put up a 2nd type of chamber. Usually Movement. However, this too seems irrelevant. Celerity Skulks are usually not that much more effective. Adrenaline Lerks or Fades are not necessary.
So my opinion is.... most players are not that good with Skulks or Lerks, regardless of how many Hive abilities they have. However, they are all pretty effective with Fades and Onos, also regardless of how many hive abilities they have. Most Fades prefer Regen over anything coming from Movement chambers.
So I think a 40 res Hive can often be far less effective than the nearly 3 res towers, etc., it would buy otherwise. With more res, you have more Fades, and that's really all you need.
Comments
2nd hive = neccessary unless the marines are being entirely dominated, the effectivness of the kaharra lifeforms is so much higher with a second hive it's just not funny. let's see.
skulk: leap = much faster movement speed for attack and retreat combined with second hive chamber (e.g celerity or silence and carapace - if you bother) can greatly increase the life span and k:d of the average skulk.
lerk: umbra = pretty much essential for any base breaking onos attacks also excellent for using in hit-n-run against lone marines, like above a celerity/focus side order makes that lerk far more formidable
fade: metabolise = win, makes carapace + celerity tank fades feasable and <b>very</b> deadly (as in possible game winner deadly) as opposed to the slightly vulnerable hive 1 regen fade.
onos: stomp = pretty obvious really
also: getting 2 early hives gives you the chance to dominate early with sensory and thenget DC as your second chamber (basically gives you more tactics to play with)
overall obviously you do want rts and early rt domination can win the game but the second hive mustn't be ignored imo or relegated to secondary importance. If you'd have suggested the 3rd hive is not neccessary then i might have agreed.
Lerk Umbra for base breaking = When the Aliens are "base-breaking" the game is already over and the Marines have no chance, so of course getting more hives is useful now. Umbra is extremely underused, most players ignore the Lerk. I'm saying that getting a Hive is at a lower priority than getting more Resource towers, because Fades are so powerful they need no Hives or anything but Regen or Carapace.
Fade Metabolise = not necessary unless the Fade player is especially bad, most Fade players are not that bad.
Onos Stomp = already said to be the only real ability that is useful with a 2nd hive.
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I think Gorges should definately lower Hive priority. Try to have at least 4 RTs that are very secure before moving onto a Hive. People rush to Hive way too quickly, I think, still stuck in the belief that a second Hive is critical for success.. like it used to be. Thus, you have a bunch of Aliens with Hive 2 abilities and MC enhancements.... but not enough defenses or Fades to protect the few RTs that are around. The RTs get wiped out and the Aliens quickly lose.
1 hive regen fades are fairly weak sorry but it's the truth 2-3 lmgers will take them down, or at least be able to defend well against them. also a carapace fade with no metabolise has very nasty down times when away from the hive.
I think it's very general and a little demeaning of you to say most skulks suck, is that a generalisation you'd include yourself in? the truth again is that leap can be VERY useful.
It's not at all true that umbra is only useful at end-game time, mini-bases in seige spots or hive locations don't recycle by themselves.
also in general a second hive doubles your teams respawn rate and gives access to a second chamber which you <b>will</b> need.
it's not about choosing one over the other a good kahrra team should be able to do both within 5minutes, all i'm saying is that i believe a second hive with all that entails for ALL players is more useful than allowing that fade to get killed a little sooner.
By getting up a hive as soon as possible, you are guaranteeing your team a better chance to win in the long run.
Hive 2 also opens up bilebomb for gorges - very effective for taking down elec RTs without needing a 50 res fade, and no downtime or vulnerability while healing. That means you can have gorges taking down RTs while the fades are free to harass marines.
* the limited "phase gate" role the hive assumes when there is more than one hive built and there are movement chambers (still the "standard" second chamber);
* the "minibase" role, a place where you can fall back if the marines kill your starting hive early in the game;
* the "supped up ip" effect, wich makes harder to spawncamp aliens and stop alien spawning at all
* the "lazy welder" role, slowly healing aliens and chambers nearby (well, this is tru for the first hive too, but with two hives you have two choices of where to retreat to heal safelly);
But the most important: you said at first that *aliens* don't use the second hive abilites well, but that does not automatically means those abilities (and the second hive) are useless or not-so-important. If they don't use correctly the abilities then the problem are the players. They will not be able to secure those 3 rts or to use effectlly the WoL or backup the one-hive fade, all these built/evolved with the resources that could boost the aliens by building another hive. In fact if all the players in the alien team are so "unskilled" they will not be able to win at all.
Run-on sentences can be fun :\
So leap sucks because most skulks sucks therefore 2nd hives are worthless? Nice reasoning
Assuming an abiliy is worthless because "most skulks suck" is just... dumb. Leap is great, it makes the skulk 10xx better. metabolize makes the fade much more useful now that it gives energy AND is stackable with regen. Umbra is awesome now that it's fixed, so it blocks 70% instead of 30% in 2.01. Usually if the marines let the aliens keep 2 hives for a long period of time, the aliens will win. HA train? Umbra+fades+stomp. Jetpacks? Umbra the hive, they'll go down eventually.
1: You can get another upgrade chamber. I hope I don't have to explain how important this it.
2: You've got a second place to spawn from, more influence over the map, etc. Strategically, having a second base is a Good Thing. If you only have one base, in one corner of the map, the marines only have one hive to siege. It's much safer with more hives.
3: The second-hive attacks may be under-used, but they are definately necessary. Umbra is second hive, and doesn't see nearly as much use as it does. Leap is second hive, and it's very useful. Bile bomb is pretty much vital if you're playing against a commander that favours electricity.
4: I believe you spawn faster with a second hive. In the same way as Infantry Portals increase marine spawn rate (by allowing more people to spawn).
5: One more: there's no real reason not to. You should be expanding to take over as much of the map as possible. So... it's a little pointless to expand to cap res nodes and set up chokepoints and <i>not</i> take the hives <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you say hives are not needed while we are i the 3rd version it means ALOT of ppl disagree. I'd say check your own skill, priorities and even think if you like this game if you fail to see the importance of one of the biggest kharaa tech upgrades.
The second hive is absolutely essential.
second hive = stronger armor,
a second upgrade chamber,
second hive abilities,
and most of all, the ability to put up a third hive.
Not only all that, but then if you lose one hive, you don't lose the game.
Most skulks, noob or not, can at least get some use out of leap.
All skulks can make use of a second chamber,
and considering the elites on the team are what often holds back the rines, leap is neccessary, even if you can't use it.
Bile Bomb is completely underused, and you forgot to mention it in your post.
Bile is very good for taking down their rts, and can turn the game around.
It can also be used to break hive lockdowns, and if you aim properly, blind the marine for a second <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> (the splash if you're hit in the face like completely covers your view, i've actually died a couple times when that's happened.)