Should we force people to read the FAQ?
Cagey
Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Automatic redirect before posting...</div> I've grown concerned with some of the flaming that's going on in the mapping forum lately; I've traditionally seen Mapping as a relatively low-key place to get questions answered and I want to return it to a friendly place for new members.
There are a few steps I'm going to be taking to try and reign in the problems that we're having with people misunderstanding what's on-topic in the main forum.
First off, I'm going to ask Nemises Zero to rename the NS newbie forum to "Mapping Help and Troubleshooting" which is closer to what I believe that forum's purpose should be. People should continue to be civil in there since most of the questions are going to be entry level, but I think it's counterproductive to think in terms of "old guard" vs. "new members" when we are trying to establish a single happy community <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Thursday- asked me earlier if I could force people to read the FAQ when they press the "Post New Thead" button and I told him I wasn't going to implement it. I'm now beginning to reconsider the idea, but want feedback from forum members on whether we want people to be force-fed the FAQ before they post a new thread. I also want to know how often you think people should be reading the FAQ -- I'm supplying a changelog so that you can quickly see what I've updated; should people be required to read the changelog if the FAQ has changed since their last thread posting?
I'm going to consider this poll broken into two parts - yes/no and frequency. If "Never require thread starter to read the FAQ" has a majority, I won't do anything. If the other three options have a majority, I'll begin planning a redirect to the FAQ on thead change.
This feature would require me to hack the IPB source code; it's not something that I"m going to do overnight. If you guys want to see this, it will be a while before it's completely implemented.
<span style='color:white'>I'm going to close this now -- about 90% of you want to see some sort of automatic redirect, so I'll start thinking about how to make that happen.</span>
There are a few steps I'm going to be taking to try and reign in the problems that we're having with people misunderstanding what's on-topic in the main forum.
First off, I'm going to ask Nemises Zero to rename the NS newbie forum to "Mapping Help and Troubleshooting" which is closer to what I believe that forum's purpose should be. People should continue to be civil in there since most of the questions are going to be entry level, but I think it's counterproductive to think in terms of "old guard" vs. "new members" when we are trying to establish a single happy community <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Thursday- asked me earlier if I could force people to read the FAQ when they press the "Post New Thead" button and I told him I wasn't going to implement it. I'm now beginning to reconsider the idea, but want feedback from forum members on whether we want people to be force-fed the FAQ before they post a new thread. I also want to know how often you think people should be reading the FAQ -- I'm supplying a changelog so that you can quickly see what I've updated; should people be required to read the changelog if the FAQ has changed since their last thread posting?
I'm going to consider this poll broken into two parts - yes/no and frequency. If "Never require thread starter to read the FAQ" has a majority, I won't do anything. If the other three options have a majority, I'll begin planning a redirect to the FAQ on thead change.
This feature would require me to hack the IPB source code; it's not something that I"m going to do overnight. If you guys want to see this, it will be a while before it's completely implemented.
<span style='color:white'>I'm going to close this now -- about 90% of you want to see some sort of automatic redirect, so I'll start thinking about how to make that happen.</span>
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
~ DarkATi
I know I've been guilty of flaming once or twice but I think I have to agree with confused. Maybe if we had some admin action to quickly lock threads that have been brought up dozens of times that would help the situation. Not to sure how you could prevent people from flaming so much.
Yes, the personal attacks in particular violate the board guidelines and need to stop.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i see an increasing number of flames in the Post Your screenshots thread. That is totally unacceptable, if you dont believe me look, say, around page 101.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't aware of that situation, and I've removed all of the posts I found that contained personal attacks. It's one thing to critique a map, and another entirely to put down the map's creator.
If I see that sort of bashing happing from a particular forum member after I've warned him/her to stop, the person(s) doing it will be asked to leave the forums until they can refrain from making personal attacks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently there is perhaps one thread on teh front page which violates the FAQ guidelines. i would say what we really need is heavy duty admin action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go through every post and although I don't speak for the official moderators, I believe that they aren't on enough to be hall monitors.
The "report post" button should be used when things are getting personal. I'll take appropriate action if and when that sort of attack occurs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all im saying is that i have talked to a few people who wont even post here becuase they are sure they will be flamed. thats ****ing rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Yes, the personal attacks in particular violate the board guidelines and need to stop.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i see an increasing number of flames in the Post Your screenshots thread. That is totally unacceptable, if you dont believe me look, say, around page 101.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't aware of that situation, and I've removed all of the posts I found that contained personal attacks. It's one thing to critique a map, and another entirely to put down the map's creator.
If I see that sort of bashing happing from a particular forum member after I've warned him/her to stop, the person(s) doing it will be asked to leave the forums until they can refrain from making personal attacks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently there is perhaps one thread on teh front page which violates the FAQ guidelines. i would say what we really need is heavy duty admin action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go through every post and although I don't speak for the official moderators, I believe that they aren't on enough to be hall monitors.
The "report post" button should be used when things are getting personal. I'll take appropriate action if and when that sort of attack occurs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all im saying is that i have talked to a few people who wont even post here becuase they are sure they will be flamed. thats ****ing rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then maybe the solution to this is to have 5 or 6 "hall monitor mods" which visit the forums regulary and would like to stop the silly posts. Both of the ideas, would work, the latter may be the better for the ones that can search through the board for topics first.
If anyone flames, give them a temporary forum ban, or at least a warning. After enough bans people are certain to get the message <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) Phasing posts.
2) Locking posts. Possibly this could be contingent on other deputy forum monitors wanting the post locked also. For instance it would take a total of three mini-mods voting for a lock. This would make it so that at the least, they'd be organized forum nazis.
3) PM-ing the FAQ to a person. I think that in and of itself may be useful. I think the best way to handle it would be to send the person a PM that is a reply to their post and basically links them with the FAQ and possibly some other mapping related help guides. It would probably involve more IPB source editing to make it a simple button click action, but any implementation of it would be more likely to both stop repeated sillyposts AND keep people from being discouraged.
All that said I know i've done my fair share in helping to build the heat around here. Until (and after) we find a solution to this i'll try to re-up the politeness a bit. If anyone wants to work on a generic PM like I mentioned in #3 i'll gladly keep a copy and most likely religiously use it. Only thing is I think it would be better if we had a specific person(s) handling this so someone doesn't get a flood of "Please read this FAQ" pm's.
I think the renaming of the "newbie" forum will do wonders as well. The name isn't all that degrading this way (less hurtful of egos!), and is a lot more clear.
Personally I can't help but feel disgusted that we're letting ourselves slip into the sort of open flaming and trolling that had been occuring in the modelling forum a few months back. I thought we were better than that honestly...
<span style='color:gray'>I took the liberty of rewording your post, I do hope that it's original meaning has been acceptably retained.
-Mouse</span>
btw this forum is waaaay over-moderated
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But with the Forum rename looks like the problem has been partially solved <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir
up anger...A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is
slow to anger appeaseth strife."
Proverbs 15:1, 18, KJV
"He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he
that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city."
Proverbs 16:32, KJV
"The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his
glory to pass over a transgression."
Proverbs 19:11, KJV
"...let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give
place to the devil...Let all bitterness, and wrath, and
anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you,
with all malice: And be ye kind one to another,
tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for
Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Ephesians 4:26b-27, 31-32, KJV
"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice,
blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth."
Colossians 3:8, KJV
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no
man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail
of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing
up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"
Hebrews 12:14-15, KJV
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to
hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:"
James 1:19, KJV
~ DarkATi
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir
up anger...A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is
slow to anger appeaseth strife."
Proverbs 15:1, 18, KJV
"He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he
that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city."
Proverbs 16:32, KJV
"The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his
glory to pass over a transgression."
Proverbs 19:11, KJV
"...let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give
place to the devil...Let all bitterness, and wrath, and
anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you,
with all malice: And be ye kind one to another,
tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for
Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Ephesians 4:26b-27, 31-32, KJV
"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice,
blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth."
Colossians 3:8, KJV
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no
man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail
of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing
up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"
Hebrews 12:14-15, KJV
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to
hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:"
James 1:19, KJV
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The religous stuff has no meaning to me DarkATi. And I agree, I have flamed, and something needs to be done. The flaming will calm down as soon as something is done about the posts. Xp-Cagey is trying to enhance the situation, and it looks as if Mouse is too.
Forget they're from the Bible and just read the words as they are.
~ DarkATi
<span style='color:gray'>I took the liberty of rewording your post, I do hope that it's original meaning has been acceptably retained.
-Mouse</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe this attitude, or more likely the <i>perception</i> that this attitude exists more widely is the cause of many many flamings. Let me state how I feel about things in this context:
I am not a computer. I do not simply respond with answers because the question is asked. The act of replying to a post requires at least some effort on my part. When confronted with the fact that this information has already been well documented in a FAQ and tutorials I feel that my efforts in answering a question are wasted. My time is important to me and I don't think it should be wasted in this way. At the same time I am smart enough to realize that if you did not read the FAQ and get the info initially, it won't happen because I (and everyone else) fail to give an acceptable answer to the post.
This is where the flaming starts. It's a combination of frustration at the fact that A) there is a post on the board that could easily be answered IF the poster would look at the FAQs, and B) the poster will most likely keep asking if they don't get an answer.
I don't want to flame anyone. I really don't like looking at this forum and becoming angry for any reason. At the same time I don't like repeating myself, and especially don't like repeating information to someone that is in documentation they could read faster than I could convey the answer. To me saying "my question should be answered even if it is in the FAQ" isn't too far off from the perception that the ns mapping forum is elitist and readily flames new mappers. Don't forget we're providing you with access to our knowledge for free. When I see a post along the lines of "I know this is against the faq" or that implies the person doesn't WANT to read the faq it basically tells me that they think I am here solely to answer questions. Or more appropriatley that this forum is here for that purpose.
I doubt this clears up anything. Maybe it explains to some people WHY we see so much flaming. I know i'm guilty of it. After a while everyone has a breaking point. And there's only so many times I can have someone seem to imply that my time replying to their message isn't worth what their time searching for the answer is before I can't stand it anymore. The FAQ's are there to help you solve your problems. Both to help you ask them appropriatly and solve it yourself. I learned all my mapping off faq's and tutorials. It's no badge of honor, but at the least i've never had problems with my questions not being answered here because they already were elsewhere.
And we all love you for that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. You keep the sanity when the insanity begains. I usually try to help but it does get rather frustrating to see the same questions so often. Hmmm :/
Edit: Forgive me if I'm just being silly/stupid/incomprehensible today. I had a tough Calc 2 test today and my brain is fried.
Good point. If the don't have the time to answer the questions nicely or at least point to the FAQs, then how do they have time to flame. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I tried to show how flaming eventually becomes an emotional solution to a logical trap..... evidently I failed there. Hopefully the above makes some sense out of it. Either way something needs to be done, and I think having a premade PM that contains links to useful info might do the trick.
well, this is a verry good site and i like it when you try to protect it, but remeber, upgrading will not help that much, finally the mass is too big and it will collapse, like your flaming problem or the FAQ button problems.
i've seen more sites with this problem, especially the forum sites and they downgraded after a while, less logs of who did or say what, useraccounts that are auto-deleted (cuz you are ****) after a month of inactivity... etcetc...
and there is always a question you have that you can't find so it's cool if someone helps, even if he answered that question over 100 times, it's like you play NS itself, you got newbieplayers that don't know the game and while my **** gets shot i'm happy i could help them even if they didn't read the faq.
...and my blessing to ns dev team for creating a game that i have been awaiting for **** 18 years!!!
(no further comment)
hmmyea it's 6.35 in the morning now, still no sleep, gonna play some more <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->