The Fundamental Flaw With Combat
Mintman
Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The welder's repair rate</div> Last night I was playing combat and the aliens were decimating the marines. However, we ended up losing. Before any of you go "omg team work blah blah blah" we rushed their base with virtually the entire team (apart from maybe a gorge or two webbing and healing the hive), which consisted of a variety of units, for at least 10 minutes straight.
Most the lower lifeforms during these rushes would be decimated by the one or two guys who'd just spam grenades in their base the moment we got in there. This is also a problem with combat but not as major as the one this thread is concerned with. We'd generally get a minimum 10 seconds of attacking on the comm chair with 3 or so aliens, knocking a fair bit of health off it. However, the next time we came to the comm chair it would be on full or nearly full health because there were 3 people or more welding the comm chair.
At this point you might say "well they had a strong defence what is wrong with that?", the point is that this insta-heal allowed them to turtle in their base to get HA while <b>one</b> marine with JP and GL would occassionally sneak into the hive and get a few grenades off before being killed. For the majority of the round this guy was the only person to get into the hive as we would kill anyone on foot easily before they got near to the hive.
The damage caused by this one marine was more than enough to keep a few gorges healing for at least 20 seconds. The equivalent damage caused upon the comm chair would take about 5 seconds for one person with a welder to repair.
Prolonged assaults upon a marine base do not work if a couple of marines get welders. Prolonged assaults on a hive will always eventually work because of how long it takes gorges to heal the hive.
The high repair speed of the welder has also led to combat rounds that have lasted upon to an hour or so. Again the aliens dominated but were unable to chip away at the comm chair due to it being welded to full by the time they returned to it. Inevitably the marines eventually won in that game too.
I would say to make combat the quick and fun mode (these prolonged games end up getting really boring) the heal rate of the welder should be reduced within combat. Either that or remove it all together and give the comm chair the ability to heal itself at a rate comparable to the hive's heal rate. Gorges could also be removed from combat then aswell (outside of webs and healing the hive they don't do much anyway).
Most the lower lifeforms during these rushes would be decimated by the one or two guys who'd just spam grenades in their base the moment we got in there. This is also a problem with combat but not as major as the one this thread is concerned with. We'd generally get a minimum 10 seconds of attacking on the comm chair with 3 or so aliens, knocking a fair bit of health off it. However, the next time we came to the comm chair it would be on full or nearly full health because there were 3 people or more welding the comm chair.
At this point you might say "well they had a strong defence what is wrong with that?", the point is that this insta-heal allowed them to turtle in their base to get HA while <b>one</b> marine with JP and GL would occassionally sneak into the hive and get a few grenades off before being killed. For the majority of the round this guy was the only person to get into the hive as we would kill anyone on foot easily before they got near to the hive.
The damage caused by this one marine was more than enough to keep a few gorges healing for at least 20 seconds. The equivalent damage caused upon the comm chair would take about 5 seconds for one person with a welder to repair.
Prolonged assaults upon a marine base do not work if a couple of marines get welders. Prolonged assaults on a hive will always eventually work because of how long it takes gorges to heal the hive.
The high repair speed of the welder has also led to combat rounds that have lasted upon to an hour or so. Again the aliens dominated but were unable to chip away at the comm chair due to it being welded to full by the time they returned to it. Inevitably the marines eventually won in that game too.
I would say to make combat the quick and fun mode (these prolonged games end up getting really boring) the heal rate of the welder should be reduced within combat. Either that or remove it all together and give the comm chair the ability to heal itself at a rate comparable to the hive's heal rate. Gorges could also be removed from combat then aswell (outside of webs and healing the hive they don't do much anyway).
Comments
The heal rate of a horge is 64/hp per spray (to buildings), with .63 sprays per sec (also from manual). Every spray from a gorge heals about 1% of a hive's 6K hp with one spray. Thusly, a single gorge can repair the hive from near death to full hp in about 120-130 seconds - which is actually faster then marines.
So, perhaps healing rate really isn't the problem here, eh?
Now they have to update most of the co_ maps as well. I think by keeping welder but only to fix HAs and let CC heal just like hive does.. would work too <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->. At least it would have required less work from everyone *points at mappers, devs*
But one thing, we all know that marines tend to turtle sometimes, maybe "autohealing cc" could lead to more turtling?. Also, if i can mention, the initial rushes might prove fatal for kharaa (kharaa -> no exp & marines -> exp) combat should be played like classic, ambushes etc. co_core is good example of that <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
But i think things will change alot towards good when we get the next update, so i wouldn't worry too much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
edit: i had similar game last night too, but there were 10 guys welding the CC it was nearly destroyed 6 times but kharaa got tired and marines won by JPs. that game lasted over hour... co_rebirth
Also, another thing that dawned on me today is that to repair your hive effectively you go gorge. Now a gorge is not an offensive unit, hell it's not even really a defensive unit, all it can do is heal and put a few webs in there. Therefore, to repair the hive you effectively lose a unit from your attack.
Now lets look at a marine with a welder, he is virtually as capable at dealing damage as any other marine (minus an upgrade) <b>BUT</b> he can always repair the damage done. So you have a defensive unit, that can ably aid an attack when required.
A gorge can't do too much to stop a marine getting to the hive on his own. A marine with a welder can stop an alien getting to the comm chair in the first place.
Save up two levels, then go straight to lerk. You don't have to spend levels as soon as you get them.
<b>AHEM!!!</b>
Gorge's main speciality is <b>structures</b>. How do gorges belong in a game where the emphasis is combat???
It would provide a slow, automatic healing for gorges.
Or like Pest suggested let only one marine weld at a time.
Gorge's main speciality is <b>structures</b>. How do gorges belong in a game where the emphasis is combat??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess you dont know what a team game is.
It would provide a slow, automatic healing for gorges.
Or like Pest suggested let only one marine weld at a time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno but if they fix the hives so gorges can heal them from the ground (unlike a lot of co_maps) then it will be find.
Aliens are overpowered most co_maps anyways because dumb rines always solo rambo out.
Plus aliens are stronger in the end game.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And your marine welding statistics are off. And you should take about an eighth of that 3 minutes, since there were three welders (Cut it in half twice), and it probably was never below half health, considering the slaughter.
The gorgie was never intended to be in combat. When we COULD heal the hive, all we got were marine and alien stalemates, since half the alien team had to spend points going gorgie to keep the hive above 20%, and everybody on the marine team had a welder. JPs with shotties or GLs usually won the day, if only because the web count was reduced DRASTICALLY, and nobody was good enough with the old/new lerk, nor was anyone an onos.. or fade.. or leaping skulk.. good enough to take out the good ol' fashioned 1.04 like JPs.
If you ask me, JPs themselves need to be nerfed more then anything. In a team combat game, how is spending four points supposed to completely obliterate anything that moves on the alien team? I spend FIVE for onos.. then the other four on crappy upgrades.. what do I get? Raped by one guy with three points worth in a level 1 HMG.
I second that
Lets say your on a 16 person server. Full. Get 2 gorges, one lerk. The rest go onos. ALiens will win. No matter what.5 onos rushing the chair? not even a team of GLers can take it down.
The other problem. All of marines rush for HA. Get HA with HMG/GL+welder. Can have the same effect. I think combat is balanced.
You just need less idiots becoming "super skulks" and "uber lerks" Yea, its fun to be a cloaked skulk, drop from the celing and onehit bite a marine. But then pretty soon the marines will have HA or JP. Those skulks are screwed. They may as well be little bugs walking around enjoying the fight from a spectators view. The problem is that to many idiots just wanna be a skulk with all the upgrades. If they evolved into Onos or fade the aliens would have much more wins.
Make the Hive and CC heal themselves.
Hive heals because it's a super biological being.
CC heals from nanites.
Some crud like that works fine.
Give them both equal health and that should make things a little better....or worse.
And for the gorges not being in combat, haha. You should see my buddy Cj when he is screwing around. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gorge ownage.
Gorge's main speciality is <b>structures</b>. How do gorges belong in a game where the emphasis is combat??? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess you dont know what a team game is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In case you didn't realize, umbra will make someone last 3 times longer than healspray will, so where's the so called support behind the gorge now?
Really, do you understand what gameplay is?
The gorge is a <b>builder</b> class. As in, he BUILDS STUFF. There is ZERO building in combat, and it therefore it follows the gorge is just about 100% useless in combat.