Anyone think this map is too dark? Usually my gamma settings are fine for most maps and I can get by, but I find myself repeatedly losing the aliens when playing as marines on co_kestrel.
I personally think that this is the best co map, and yes, the first time I played it I looked around and was like "WOAH cannot see" but that was only because I wasnt used to combat. I personally think that kestrel is no darker than say angst, and I think that some troubles with seeing in darker maps may have to do with glare.
Im not trying to say that what you think is wrong or not true, but i personally think that it has enough lighting to see and that it is rather the darker textures which the aliens blend into that make it seem dark
has anyone else had problems healing the hive in this map? even lifting the gorge closer didnt change anything when i tried. you cannot sit on the hive and it's room is FAR more accessable than the CC room (3 avenues and 1 vent vs 2 paths with atleast two vents mildly nearby). while the map looks awesome and is full of atmosphere, the long hallways aren't terribly alien friendly. any marine with sufficent video card software can increase their gama and reduce the effectiveness of amushes for aliens who think they're in the shadows. not to mention that if you CAN get into the marine base, you're instantly visible to a large room of respawned gun-nuts who're walking in your direction. they even have two armories for naders, as if you have the leisure to stop and chomp on one!
...none of which keeps me from playing in the map or even from going alien as often as possible. i dont like easy odds. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> the best i solution i can come up with from a player's perspective is try celerity lerk and use the vents to get closer before you have to make that last sprint past the firing squads that occassionally replace grenade spam. if they are nading, vents aren't always safe but there are a lot of different vents he has to cover. dont be predictable.
-------------------------------------- <!--QuoteBegin-matso42+Jan 31 2004, 05:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 31 2004, 05:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[1] Healspray from a position below the hive don't heal it. You need to be position at least slightly higher than lowest part of the hive to heal it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Main areas should be bright enough. I just like the corners, nooks and crannies to be dark for aliens. If enough people seem to have trouble (and it would have to be a lot) I'll make it a bit brighter - but it does seem to be good for the majority as is as far as I can tell.
i'd agree that kestrel is no darker than all the other combat maps <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> you guys forced me to turn my brightness/gamma in HL to the max o_O
The only issue i have with kestrel really is the marine spawn. The room is large and spacious, with hardly any cover. The marines spawn outside of the comm chair pit, and are free to shoot mercilessly at the aliens trying to chomp the chair. Incredibly easy GL spam from across the room to the chair == bad stalemates. The hallways are manageable, imho, because of the little side hallways :
I think kestrel is the worst of all co maps in ns too small, too flat, too straight and too dark
The three rooms are too large, and have nothing in it so a marines can shoot the aliens from long distance. The courses and doors are to narrow, only one way from spawn to death no escaping. The CC bunkered in the ground, for escaping and defensive aspects, bad for, hmmmm onos, fade, lerk and skulk. The gorge wouldnt even reach it cause the enemy would reinforce before. BTW both sides of rinebase have to be reached with ladders so onos has another problem. Marines shooting down the loooooooong floors and wide plains where there is no itty bitty space between hive and ceiling for gorge. Only one real vent in this map another leads to a useless cockpit and the other is just a connection. And the darkness makes it even harder for aliens to figure out where the enemy was and is, that is for me very hard to handle, cause in fast games you have to react fast and if you don't see anything you become insecure and do not react that fast. In my opinion co_kestrel really sucks maybe a trainigmap for new ns players but not a combat map
Small? Its probably the largest. I dont think you realize how big it really is.
At any rate, its gotten even bigger now whenever Flay releases the next round. More ways into the MS and a couple more routes/halls/rooms to take (and some extensions to the vent system that dump into these routes and the MS). If that still doesn't do it, I've already laid out plans for another lower level section.
<!--QuoteBegin-devilblocks+Feb 4 2004, 10:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (devilblocks @ Feb 4 2004, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Small? Its probably the largest. I dont think you realize how big it really is.
At any rate, its gotten even bigger now whenever Flay releases the next round. More ways into the MS and a couple more routes/halls/rooms to take (and some extensions to the vent system that dump into these routes and the MS). If that still doesn't do it, I've already laid out plans for another lower level section. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize that it's big overall, but it's small everywhere and that's what counts.
It's really annoying to fight against a wall 24/7.
Ahhh rgr. I think the biggest problem with that is the congestion so you can't really duck behind corners and side areas. In small games such as 4vs 4 or 6 vs 6, which it was originally played on, its not that bad at all and I never trouble taking cover. In large games you keep bumping into people trying to get out of the way.
Any rate, like I just said, I've added quite a bit that should hopefully allieviate the cramming of halls and rooms. In short, going from Communications (big room right outside of hive) there is a new exit that leads up and into another new room that eventually overlooks the MS (travel time is still the same as any other route). There are also a few more vents to travel around too. So there are more options and routes to take, more areas to cover, etc. etc.
While your at it, I don't suppose you could look into making kestral a little less grenade friendly? Part of it is the closed areas, but there are also some vent bug issues around the alien start that give jp/gl users a pretty nasty advantage...
It's mostly just that "main route" that has these problems, the back way is where I have the most fun because it gives me plenty of opportunities for 1 on 1 engagements with aliens.
EDIT: Forgot to follow Imma's excellent map feedback rules, added a bit more to the post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not sure what you mean by that last part? I don't like to change too much at once, especially with these pretty sizeable changes already. If its still a problem I'll definately put it on the board for the following draft.
PS. I'm sending in a new build tonight as I did find some issues to improve on quickly. So if you can be specific on minor greviences, stuck points, etc. I'll try and get them in.
I like kestrel. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, it IS a pain as an onos. If you exit the hive via the back stairs, and head the back way to marine base, you have to duck twice AND go up a ladder. (But it's the better route because the ladder isn't the entrance to marine base.
Moving out the front route from the hive, onos run into "things" sticking down from the cieling. The whole cieling in that room (right outside hive) should be moved up enough to allow onos to run. Keep the nice structure, but move it up.
Near marine start, there are a lot of cross beams near the cieling. Unfortunately, the cieling is too close to allow a skulk to run through there. Should be changed so a skulk can fit. (This problem exists on both sides of marine spawn IIRC.)
The large marine spawn is a good thing (too many maps are easy spawn-camps for aliens) but perhaps a *few* boxes or structures to give aliens SOME cover and maybe a ramp instead of a ladder into the CC pit?
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Feb 4 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Feb 4 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, it IS a pain as an onos. If you exit the hive via the back stairs, and head the back way to marine base, you have to duck twice... Moving out the front route from the hive, onos run into "things" sticking down from the cieling. The whole cieling in that room (right outside hive) should be moved up enough to allow onos to run.... Near marine start, there are a lot of cross beams near the cieling. Unfortunately, the cieling is too close to allow a skulk to run through there. Should be changed so a skulk can fit. (This problem exists on both sides of marine spawn IIRC.)
The large marine spawn is a good thing (too many maps are easy spawn-camps for aliens) but perhaps a *few* boxes or structures to give aliens SOME cover and maybe a ramp instead of a ladder into the CC pit? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Got all the ohno changes to make it more ohno friendly now. There are a several more vents in major traffic areas to help skulks (and allow jpers to cross sections of map quickly). We tried crates in the MS before, it just didn't look right. The new room above and such is going to alter MS gameplay a lot too, so I want to see what happens before doing anymore to it.
That last part was me adding in something I liked about the map. I had just initially said the thing about the grenades working a little TOO well in kestral, then went back and added that I liked the long way round to the hive more as it set up great 1 on 1 encounters between players.
The revision is superb, this is now my favourite co map ATM. It can be a bit alien biased though; I suggest removing the CC pit, moving the armouries to opposite ends of MS, and putting the CC in between where the armouries are now. Put a pile of crates or something near where the pit is now to give the aliens some cover for CC munching and you're set.
Comments
Im not trying to say that what you think is wrong or not true, but i personally think that it has enough lighting to see and that it is rather the darker textures which the aliens blend into that make it seem dark
if that makes any sense...
...none of which keeps me from playing in the map or even from going alien as often as possible. i dont like easy odds. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> the best i solution i can come up with from a player's perspective is try celerity lerk and use the vents to get closer before you have to make that last sprint past the firing squads that occassionally replace grenade spam. if they are nading, vents aren't always safe but there are a lot of different vents he has to cover. dont be predictable.
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<!--QuoteBegin-matso42+Jan 31 2004, 05:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 31 2004, 05:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[1] Healspray from a position below the hive don't heal it. You need to be position at least slightly higher than lowest part of the hive to heal it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aaaaaah! oooookay! well then.
...that's no good.
The only issue i have with kestrel really is the marine spawn. The room is large and spacious, with hardly any cover. The marines spawn outside of the comm chair pit, and are free to shoot mercilessly at the aliens trying to chomp the chair. Incredibly easy GL spam from across the room to the chair == bad stalemates. The hallways are manageable, imho, because of the little side hallways :
(and lol@easter egg)
too small, too flat, too straight and too dark
The three rooms are too large, and have nothing in it so a marines can shoot the aliens from long distance. The courses and doors are to narrow, only one way from spawn to death no escaping. The CC bunkered in the ground, for escaping and defensive aspects, bad for, hmmmm onos, fade, lerk and skulk. The gorge wouldnt even reach it cause the enemy would reinforce before. BTW both sides of rinebase have to be reached with ladders so onos has another problem.
Marines shooting down the loooooooong floors and wide plains where there is no itty bitty space between hive and ceiling for gorge. Only one real vent in this map another leads to a useless cockpit and the other is just a connection.
And the darkness makes it even harder for aliens to figure out where the enemy was and is, that is for me very hard to handle, cause in fast games you have to react fast and if you don't see anything you become insecure and do not react that fast.
In my opinion co_kestrel really sucks
maybe a trainigmap for new ns players but not a combat map
For marines, the strategy involves holding down the +attack key, and for aliens it's get lerks/onos and steamroll the marines.
It's just way too.... BLAND... ugh. I want more diversity to a map, this one is much too small and plain. Anyone could make a few corridors.
I honestly think that kestral should be replaced with co_uslysses, now that is a quality map, dunno why it was taken out of the build, man it rocked.
At any rate, its gotten even bigger now whenever Flay releases the next round. More ways into the MS and a couple more routes/halls/rooms to take (and some extensions to the vent system that dump into these routes and the MS). If that still doesn't do it, I've already laid out plans for another lower level section.
At any rate, its gotten even bigger now whenever Flay releases the next round. More ways into the MS and a couple more routes/halls/rooms to take (and some extensions to the vent system that dump into these routes and the MS). If that still doesn't do it, I've already laid out plans for another lower level section. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize that it's big overall, but it's small everywhere and that's what counts.
It's really annoying to fight against a wall 24/7.
Any rate, like I just said, I've added quite a bit that should hopefully allieviate the cramming of halls and rooms. In short, going from Communications (big room right outside of hive) there is a new exit that leads up and into another new room that eventually overlooks the MS (travel time is still the same as any other route). There are also a few more vents to travel around too. So there are more options and routes to take, more areas to cover, etc. etc.
It's mostly just that "main route" that has these problems, the back way is where I have the most fun because it gives me plenty of opportunities for 1 on 1 engagements with aliens.
EDIT: Forgot to follow Imma's excellent map feedback rules, added a bit more to the post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, it IS a pain as an onos. If you exit the hive via the back stairs, and head the back way to marine base, you have to duck twice AND go up a ladder. (But it's the better route because the ladder isn't the entrance to marine base.
Moving out the front route from the hive, onos run into "things" sticking down from the cieling. The whole cieling in that room (right outside hive) should be moved up enough to allow onos to run. Keep the nice structure, but move it up.
Near marine start, there are a lot of cross beams near the cieling. Unfortunately, the cieling is too close to allow a skulk to run through there. Should be changed so a skulk can fit. (This problem exists on both sides of marine spawn IIRC.)
The large marine spawn is a good thing (too many maps are easy spawn-camps for aliens) but perhaps a *few* boxes or structures to give aliens SOME cover and maybe a ramp instead of a ladder into the CC pit?
I also enjoyed the at least two refrences to Alien that I recognized.
Just thinking a bit and I think the hive is a bit difficult to defend as aliens sometimes. May consider adding a bit of cover in the room.
Moving out the front route from the hive, onos run into "things" sticking down from the cieling. The whole cieling in that room (right outside hive) should be moved up enough to allow onos to run.... Near marine start, there are a lot of cross beams near the cieling. Unfortunately, the cieling is too close to allow a skulk to run through there. Should be changed so a skulk can fit. (This problem exists on both sides of marine spawn IIRC.)
The large marine spawn is a good thing (too many maps are easy spawn-camps for aliens) but perhaps a *few* boxes or structures to give aliens SOME cover and maybe a ramp instead of a ladder into the CC pit? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got all the ohno changes to make it more ohno friendly now. There are a several more vents in major traffic areas to help skulks (and allow jpers to cross sections of map quickly). We tried crates in the MS before, it just didn't look right. The new room above and such is going to alter MS gameplay a lot too, so I want to see what happens before doing anymore to it.