We Dont Need No .. Defense Chambers!

Ollj · February 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">do we?</div> Im so anoyed about people whining:
"WTH, mov first?"
"omg sens first"
"drop DC next"
"no DC!!!"

Aliens can win without defense chambers (and with 2 hives) ffs.
this means SC and MC. no dc and no auto healing.
Ns is more than building defense chambers now!

Correct me if im wrong, but we dont need no Defense Chambers, not essentially.
To proove this, ill drop anything but a dc, if nothing else was sayd before and if we have enough healing gorges.

but i guess this thread makes no sense, since co maps I hear more and more stuff like:
"dont call me a res ****, im not a res **** you noob, its all my res!
you are the res **** building all that chambers"

theres a mysterious thing called "gorge" and it heals.
One adrenaline gorge is as good as 2 defense chambers, with sof, its as good as 3 because its more mobile.

I love dropping mc first, having more gorge spit, heal or just running faster as gorge, seeing all the res **** rambos diing.
If you see mc first that me giggling.

Namron · February 2004

Now with focus and when metabolize (however a second hive ability) is much better, defence chambers aren't as crucial as before. Although, lerks and onos are extremely easy to take down when they don't have regeneration, especially onos. Also, the hive heals damn slow in 3.0 beta 2...but sensory as the first chamber can usually work out pretty good, but I think you'll need defence chambers at the second hive. It's extremely hard to counter an heavy armor train with only fades, skulks and some lerks. The onos needs the defence chambers so badly...

(I think it would be good if the onos got much more health points back while devouring.)

Forlorn · February 2004

In 3.0, best order is movement, defense, sensory

Or perhaps sensory defense combo's

Zek · February 2004

Onoses still suck without Ds AND Movements, and Sensory is still a crappy chamber for them. Going Sense first pretty much places a requirement on getting 3 hives if you can't suppress the marines from the beginning with Skulks. Sensories are still, for the most part, small alien chambers. Their power lessens considerably once you get to Fades.

Speed_2_Dave · February 2004

no offense to anyone, but I tried a game of Sens first. It worked out well.. cloak skulks terrify marines, and make them paranoid, and then the focus skulks clean out the mess.

Haven't fought a comm who could beat it yet (only tried it once, though).

Wish I could say I'll do more testing on the subject, but my internet connection sucks (GG T3 shared) so I can't.

D chambers have been nerfed enough, imo to warrant dropping a different upgrade chamber first, especially since the solo gorge has been gone since 1.0x.

Narf · February 2004

Sensory first rarely works against experience players, but the addition of focus makes it slightly more desireable. More so then movement first, i guess. Still defense first is almost required because carapace's massive bonuses to armor for fade/onos are almost too good to pass up, and with armor mattering more and more D is increasingly important. While Sense first isn't all that great, D and then sense can work out ok, even for onos. A cloaked onos is pretty damn scary if you ask me.

Heliophobe · February 2004

Yes, sensory first can be devastating to the marines, and it has become the standard first chamber on the local server i frequent, not only is it effective, but also satisfying <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />.
However, it is true that the game becomes drasticly harder to win if you do not have DC. Not having dc early game is no problem, and mid-game its still not all-important, but late game, its DC or bust, becaus in the head-on attack enviornment that tends to be the endgame, SC contributes basicly nothing, and MC contributes precious little (to fades and especially onos that is). Perhaps if focus was better for onos it would be considered more often? O_o

Evo · February 2004

Call me weird, but I love focus Onos. You can one shot lvl 3 light armour rines, and chow down on the heavies with devour. Its not bad for wreckin stuff too, especially turret farms. Turrets will go down in a gore or two, so you can rip the place up pretty quick. Focus + Regen + Celer = pwn0s, IMO <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

I do have a bit of a crazy idea though. Lemmy run this past everyone...
I think the reason everyone loves DC so much is because of the heal factor. Hives are great, but you only have 1-3, and they're almost never where the action is. Gorges are great, but finding a gorge and then actually getting them to heal you is an excersize in frustration. DCs rule because gorges can build little farms of them for anyone to heal at, at their convenience. That, and regen provides constant, anywhere, anytime healing.
Sooo.... what if we make the heal-factor (for lack of a better term) less important? Rines don't suffer from it because their comm can supply them at any point on the map. Yet for aliens, the biologically superior race, its a major issue. So why not allow any alien, at any time, to heal themselves? Spend 2 res (cost), pop into a quick egg (immobile/defenceless = risk), and when its all done, tada! You're healed! No need for a hive, gorge, or DCs. Of course, the other options are free, so in this case you'd be spending resources for convenience. With the right ballance/tweaking, I think it might actually be a nice little feature. And it would give late game aliens something to spend their res on to boot <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />.

Hm?

Cronos · February 2004

Wait, whats this wavy cloudy stuff?

**Oh, thats just Cronos having a flashback**

Not another one! Oh well, here we go...

[Flashback]

The map was ns_nancy 3.0 Beta 2.

Marines had relocated to subspace, we had taken Mother and started in Port. Our first chamber was a sensory. Someone slapped Movement after the second hive went up.

After the obligatory whinging about Movement second and no D chambers, I hit upon an old idea of nancy. I gorged in the vent above sub and instructed all my team mates to gather round the movement chambers. I built the hive with the 80+ res I had. Foolishly, the turrets started firing upon the hive, My team mates teleported right into sub and wrought havoc.

The hive went down, it was a failure. With my remaining 40+ res, I put the hive up again, and again my team mates movement rushed sub. This time they successfully took down the TF. The base quickly fell, but not before the marines could relocate back to marine start.

Third hive went up, got D's and sent them to where marines go when they are thoughrouly owned.

[/Flashback]

SDM can work, given the correct circumstances.

im_lost · February 2004

Sure, but with D and M the base might have been taken down in the first rush.

Nobody says you can't win without D chambers. They just say it's harder. So, a few examples here and there don't really make a point.

Honestly, I don't really care which chamber is put up first. I generally don't get any upgrades as a skulk until it's already an alien win. I am usually a permagorge, and I am fine with redemption, celerity, or scent of fear as a single upgrade. However, if you're not going with the standard DMS strategy, let your team know so they can have a chance to tell you otherwise. Putting down sensory first won't work if no one else is willing to place the chambers around the map.

BattleTech · February 2004

Jeez.. like 1,000 thread's like this... search, please.
Also, a team can choose whatever upgrade they want at whatever hive if they agree, unless the Gorge just plops it down. Each chamber has its own purpose, some people find certain upgrade's better than another. Movement is good for Lerk's, Fade's, Gorge's early game. Defense is good for every class early game. Sensory is good for cloaking and giving alien's an edge over the marines, seeing where they are, cloak walking and focus. So you can choose whatever ugprade you want, because sooner or later you're probally going to get another choice of selection. Don't complain if you're the 1 out of 10 aliens who didn't want defense, its whatever the teams wants first and thinks is most viable for the situation.

Amelek · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 2 2004, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In 3.0, best order is movement, defense, sensory

Or perhaps sensory defense combo's  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I agree witht he first statement ... but I didn't know my cloaking redemption gorge was catching on. rofl

BOBDolol · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 2 2004, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In 3.0, best order is movement, defense, sensory

Or perhaps sensory defense combo's  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
hm.. care to explain forlorn? I don't see any reason to risk going mcs first

ZiGGY · February 2004

risk going mcs first? with the carapace nerf movement provides the strongest versatile option by far :/

chis1 · February 2004

i think sensory chambers is the best off all, IMO <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

i mean come on

setting SC everywhere on the map

the only place you may not be safe is in the area of enemy base
apart from that

you can own the whole map with SC <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

its great..

DC - SC THEN MC IMO

usually id get kicked if i done it in that order

StoatBringer · February 2004

I like SC first, as it's so much fun chomping people just as they think they're in a nice safe, empty corridor. But I don't really mind what order the upgrades come in as I'll adjust my tactics accordingly.

What I hate is people who build nothing, save up to become fade/onos, and then constantly scream at their team to build DCs for them and whine about it when they die. My response is usually "Well, if you hadn't saved all your res for onos (and died two minutes later) you could have built them yourself, nubling."

chis1 · February 2004

ugh, i hear yah

I hate res ****

I noticed i had 70 res

becuase i was just running around as skulk

i was like ":0" so then just became gorge, and started building <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Scythe · February 2004

We don't need no de-fence chambers!
Dah-da-da Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum Dah-da-da Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum
We don't need no car-apace!
<link>
Hey, gorges, leave those skulks alone!
Dah-da-da Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum Dah-da-da Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum
All in all we're just a-nother pipe in ns_bast.
Dah-da-da Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum

Woo.

--Scythe--

P.S. I've never liked defence. Never.

The_Twisted_One · February 2004

ollj your my new friend <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

i did a thread like this in the constie forum except it was more of a threat lol they know what i mean (they all listened too i never got to carry out my threat <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

Coaleh · February 2004

Well, I think that a good movement chamber is the best choice for a first chamber.
Speed for skulks and adren for gorges (HEAL!) and the odd lerk in the vent to spore the maines <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> This being a first hive and the game has suposidly just started then there wont be any fades or oni around, so regen and cara wont really be needed, and regen/cara dont work as well for a starting skulk, some nice extra speed from a movment would though. DC's only real benifit (at start of game) that i find is redemption or regen can work quite well with gorges or lerks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Basicly, im saying that at the start of the game with skulks having low hp and little to no armour, theres not much point in having cara/regen maybe even redemption. Though it does work well with gorges, but they should be trying to avoid combat really, and work on healing, building and killing elec rts (grr)

Do what you want, but you wont see/hear me coming <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />...... Or you will, but then you will die very fast after <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />

titanium · February 2004

the reason many people don't like sensory or movement first is because quite frankly they are boring and result in a lot of lost games due to not being able to get fades or onos to clear out turret farms.

and no, i don't have a problem with losing in a pub. but i do have a problem with the marines taking over 30 minutes to end a game that they have clearly won because they feel like building turrets in every room on the map instead of attacking the hive. this happens in most of the games i've played in 3.0b1/2 when on aliens.

with defense, you can at least try to do something if you get some resources. with movement or sensory, you're boned.

Turkey2 · February 2004

I've always been a fan of mov first esp in smaller games as its much easier to respond to hive attacks. Mov is important for every lifeform, whether it be silence or celerity for skulk, adren or celerity for gorge, all 3 for lerk, adren for fade, n celerity for onos. D's are also very important but moreso for the large lifeforms rather than skulks. Sens really only benefits skulks except for scent of fear which is useful but not necessary. Not to mention the ease with which sens effects are countered with motion, obs + scan, armor upgrades which counter both cloaking and focus. Not to mention just hearing someone. While I dont mind messing around with some other chambers movs and d's are going to give you the best chance to win.

Krezalyz · February 2004

Well the main reason to get dc first is that those rines can and WILL elec every damn rt there is and skulks, gorger nor lerks can do nothing when the elec is on.. gorges can get ocs but then 4 rines will jump in and quess what then happens... and where to get res to ocs in earlygame? So thats not it.. And rines usually DO move in large groups so taking em all down once will just slow them for a sec and then they come again and you won't be so lucky everytime..
So to the point why we need dc first.. because we need a regen Fade to get the elec rts down as soon as possible. Because able skulk can kill few marines quite quick and get res from kills and hit that 50 quick. And tadaa no more res for rines!
And rines usually don't have much upgrades at the moment so they wont get the Fade down (Well depends on players but IF the Fade knows what he/she is doing its kinda impossible at the earlygame) And Fades are quick with the blink..
The game is ALL about res dominance and if rines can have even 4 rts out of 10 they will get that hatrain and aliens are screwd in most cases... So destroying / preventing rines getting the rts is the most important thing to do in earlygame as aliens. And if the aliens get an able fade and second hive up at the same time the rines usually are screwed because when the second hive is compelete there will be atleast 1 onos by the time and we all know that is evil <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />
And to the res **** we all love so much, frankly they are needed to some point.
Lets take atleast game of 6 vs 6 .. alien team 3 gorges and 3 skulks at the beginning, 1 skulk saves for hive, 1 saves for the fade and 1 saves for the onos.. works out quite well IF the aliens use the team h4x <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />
But in most pubs it is like 1 gorge and 5 ****.... so so its all about team play and most people know it by now but everyone want's to get the highkillscores and eat lots of rines! (Devour is the most evil thing in the game, especially cloaked <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />)
Blaah, well I think thats more than enough babbling about it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Paranoia2MB · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Feb 2 2004, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Onoses still suck without Ds AND Movements, and Sensory is still a crappy chamber for them. Going Sense first pretty much places a requirement on getting 3 hives if you can't suppress the marines from the beginning with Skulks. Sensories are still, for the most part, small alien chambers. Their power lessens considerably once you get to Fades.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Uhhh, the thing is...by th etime you should be able to go onos. The second hive should be up...Somebody here is a res hog..lol

Draconis · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well the main reason to get dc first is that those rines can and WILL elec every damn rt there is and skulks, gorger nor lerks can do nothing when the elec is on.. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

An adrelanine gorge and a skulk do the job nicely, thanks for asking <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />.

The problem with sensory first, is that even if a chain of Scs is a nice idea, it cant be put in practice because of the lack of res early game.

Go movement, go!

Krezalyz · February 2004

Draconis, thats team h4x! Now where do you see that? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />
Yea it does work but needs few skulks to be fast or else the rines will pop in.. fade is a better solution <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />
But oh well...

SkulkerHunter · February 2004

I prefer SC over DC anyday. THats what i drop alot and sure i get whined at but I and many other vets can use SC to its maximum ability. Sure some of you will say carapace lets you eat more bullets but with cloak you wont have to eat any if your good. Besides cloaked <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /> taunting lone marines is classic specially when you pop out.

BugBrain · February 2004

I agree with Forlorn, and I will tell you why. DC provide pitiful little bonus to skulks, the starting unit. SC and MC benefit them so much more. Lerks benefit from all 3 chambers equally IMO. Fades and Oni, however, get the most mileage out of DC, period. They can still work without them, but they will not be at their full potential. Therefore, MC or SC first, depending on what the team wants, and DC second for fades and oni. If DC first, then SC dead last.

project_demon · February 2004

i don't agree,

as a special & pro. ns player, i think or should i say beleive that aliens can't win with no DC...however, that doesn't mean that the 1rst chambre should be defence, but it has to be available or the aliens have no chance...

-onos, fades, lerks will die fast
-they will need to wait again for more ress to go onos or fades again(lerk is only 30 ress so...)
-when they hit n run, they have to go all the way back to the hive to heal, or find a gorg.

-if you say that all they need is couple of gorges to heal them, then ur **** cause that means couple of 3-6 players have to gorge in ur team, 2 of them get RT and the rest heal and die at the same time <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

N.B. gorges can't heal themselves unless other gorges waist their time, energie and hp to heal other gorges

why do you think aliens get DC 1rst or 2nd?

d0omie · February 2004

I was playing a game today and we got Movement first (some one just dropped one inhive without asking).

Marines got a PG up next to the elec Rt in two other hives. We couldn't kill them without regen.

sieges get set up.

gg

If we had had DC we could have gone regen ONOS or fade and cleared them.

Entropiua · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heliophobe @ Feb 2 2004, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> becaus in the head-on attack enviornment that tends to be the endgame, SC contributes basicly nothing, and MC contributes precious little (to fades and especially onos that is).  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
MC contributes quite a bit to fades and onos. It lets the lerks umbra more often. Umbra is *huge*.

We Dont Need No .. Defense Chambers!

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