Combat Upgrade System Flaws
Maian
Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
<div class="IPBDescription">and a solution</div> First, I'll discuss the characteristics of the NS combat upgrade system:<ul><li><b>Tree:</b> It's essentially a tech tree. Each upgrade has a single requirement (or none). This is especially evident in the marine "tech tree": shotgun requires damage lvl 1, HMG/GL requires shotgun, JP/HA requires armor lvl 2.</li><li><b>Uni-directional:</b> You can only "move" in the tree in one direction - toward the "branches". It's impossible to move toward the "root". For example, once you get a HMG, there's no way to revert back to shotgun or change to the grenade launcher. There's also no way to remove upgrades.</li></ul>
I noticed the following problems:<ol type='1'><li><b>Inflexibility:</b> This stems directly from the system being uni-directional. For example, as I've stated before, you cannot change from HMG to shotgun or GL, nor can you remove an upgrade like focus. This is bad for 2 reasons: lack of tactical variance throughout the course of the game, and it is simply frustrating not being able to change your setup.</li><li><b>Exemplifies lack of diversity:</b> The upgrade system seems to assume that certain upgrades are better than others. While this is true for some upgrades, namely armor level and damage level upgrades, this is <i>not</i> true for weapons and lifeforms. Is the shotgun worse than the HMG? Is it worse than the GL? Is the fade inferior to the onos? Is the skulk supposed to be the runt of the litter? Intuitively, when you purchase an <i>upgrade</i>, you should be improved in some way and retain all current abilities. However, the upgrade system apparently assumes that the onos is better at vent crawling than skulks, and that HMGs are better than shotguns against structures.</li><li><b>Welders vs. gorges:</b> Marines of any armor with any weapon can carry a welder. The gorge, on the other hand, is the weakest alien in combat and is relatively boring to play. Worse, due to the upgrade system's inflexibility, it's impossible to revert to the gorge to heal the hive. While racial diversity is nice, the frustration and imbalance this causes is <i>not nice at all</i>.</li><li><b>Hides imbalance between upgrades.</b> Notice the unpopularity of armor lvl 3, and damage lvl 2 and 3. The only reason armor and damage upgrades are chosen are because they are prerequisites for other upgrades. Forcing marines to choose armor lvl 1 and 2 just to get HA or JP and damage lvl 1 just to get shotgun, just hides how weak these upgrades are. Not counting upgrade requirements, armor upgrades past lvl 1 are unnecessary because of resupply and lack of welding (marines may get welders for the CC but they don't always weld each other). Getting new weapons and armor (HA/JP) is just better than upgrading damage and armor level.</li></ol>
I propose a new upgrade system that is simple and eliminates all of these problems:<ul><li><b>Solving problem #1:</b> Add a system that allows rechoosing of upgrades. Specifically, add an option to the popup menu that resets all upgrades on your next respawn so that you can respend your upgrade points. This combines all the advantages of the current system and Hambone mode's system.</li><li><b>Solving problem #2:</b> Remove the tree structure for alien lifeforms and marine weapons and armor types. These upgrades - gorge, lerk, fade, onos, HA, JP, SG, HMG, GL - would have no prerequisite. Increase costs to compensate. This allows you to get any upgrade you want assuming you have enough upgrade points to spend. Of course, removing the tree structure will just make problem #4 worse, but I'll address that later.</li><li><b>Solving problem #3:</b> This adds another requirement to my solution to problem #1: the "sell cost" of morphing from a more expensive lifeform to the gorge must be the same as the cost of morphing from the gorge to a more expensive lifeform. Basically, it would shouldn't cost anything to temporarily morph to the gorge and morph back. Actually, this requirement is already met: you can just reset your upgrades, morph into a gorge, reset again, and morph to whatever you want. However, it would be more convenient to allow morphing between any upgrade of the same class without dying and respawning, where class is: lifeform, weapon, or type.</li><li><b>Solving problem #4:</b> Increase the max level and adjust upgrade costs to compensate. Remove the names for each level (e.g. "captain", "ambusher"), so new ones don't have to be made (after all, nobody calls a lvl 10 marine "general"). This makes it much easier to balance upgrades.</li></ul>
Suggested specifics:<ul><li>Max level: 30, for a total of 29 UP (upgrade points)</li><li>Remove level names (e.g. "captain")</li><li>Increase experience rate by 200% to compensate</li><li>Add an option to the popup menu that resets all upgrades on your next respawn so that you can respend your upgrade points</li><li>Chamber upgrades now come in levels as in NS classic</li><li>Chamber upgrades: costs 1 UP per upgrade level</li><li>2nd hive ability: costs 3 UP</li><li>3rd hive ability: costs 3 UP, requires 2nd hive ability</li><li>Skulk: costs 0 UP; class: lifeform (default)</li><li>Gorge: costs 3 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Lerk: costs 6 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Fade: costs 7 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Onos: costs 12 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Armor level upgrades: costs 2 UP per upgrade level</li><li>Damage level upgrades: costs 2 UP per upgrade level</li><li>LMG: costs 0 UP; class: weapon (default)</li><li>SG: costs 7 UP; class: weapon</li><li>HMG: costs 10 UP; class: weapon</li><li>GL: costs 12 UP; class: weapon</li><li>LA (light armor): costs 0 UP; class: armor (default)</li><li>HA: costs 10 UP; class: armor</li><li>JP: costs 11 UP; class: armor</li><li>Resupply: costs 5 UP</li><li>Catalyst: costs 2 UP (more if it's improved)</li><li>Motion tracking: costs 3 UP</li><li>Scannar sweep: costs 3 UP</li><li>Mines: costs 3 UP</li><li>Hand grenade: costs 2 UP (since it's now easier to switch from GL to another weapon and vice versa)</li><li>Welder: costs 3 UP</li></ul>
I noticed the following problems:<ol type='1'><li><b>Inflexibility:</b> This stems directly from the system being uni-directional. For example, as I've stated before, you cannot change from HMG to shotgun or GL, nor can you remove an upgrade like focus. This is bad for 2 reasons: lack of tactical variance throughout the course of the game, and it is simply frustrating not being able to change your setup.</li><li><b>Exemplifies lack of diversity:</b> The upgrade system seems to assume that certain upgrades are better than others. While this is true for some upgrades, namely armor level and damage level upgrades, this is <i>not</i> true for weapons and lifeforms. Is the shotgun worse than the HMG? Is it worse than the GL? Is the fade inferior to the onos? Is the skulk supposed to be the runt of the litter? Intuitively, when you purchase an <i>upgrade</i>, you should be improved in some way and retain all current abilities. However, the upgrade system apparently assumes that the onos is better at vent crawling than skulks, and that HMGs are better than shotguns against structures.</li><li><b>Welders vs. gorges:</b> Marines of any armor with any weapon can carry a welder. The gorge, on the other hand, is the weakest alien in combat and is relatively boring to play. Worse, due to the upgrade system's inflexibility, it's impossible to revert to the gorge to heal the hive. While racial diversity is nice, the frustration and imbalance this causes is <i>not nice at all</i>.</li><li><b>Hides imbalance between upgrades.</b> Notice the unpopularity of armor lvl 3, and damage lvl 2 and 3. The only reason armor and damage upgrades are chosen are because they are prerequisites for other upgrades. Forcing marines to choose armor lvl 1 and 2 just to get HA or JP and damage lvl 1 just to get shotgun, just hides how weak these upgrades are. Not counting upgrade requirements, armor upgrades past lvl 1 are unnecessary because of resupply and lack of welding (marines may get welders for the CC but they don't always weld each other). Getting new weapons and armor (HA/JP) is just better than upgrading damage and armor level.</li></ol>
I propose a new upgrade system that is simple and eliminates all of these problems:<ul><li><b>Solving problem #1:</b> Add a system that allows rechoosing of upgrades. Specifically, add an option to the popup menu that resets all upgrades on your next respawn so that you can respend your upgrade points. This combines all the advantages of the current system and Hambone mode's system.</li><li><b>Solving problem #2:</b> Remove the tree structure for alien lifeforms and marine weapons and armor types. These upgrades - gorge, lerk, fade, onos, HA, JP, SG, HMG, GL - would have no prerequisite. Increase costs to compensate. This allows you to get any upgrade you want assuming you have enough upgrade points to spend. Of course, removing the tree structure will just make problem #4 worse, but I'll address that later.</li><li><b>Solving problem #3:</b> This adds another requirement to my solution to problem #1: the "sell cost" of morphing from a more expensive lifeform to the gorge must be the same as the cost of morphing from the gorge to a more expensive lifeform. Basically, it would shouldn't cost anything to temporarily morph to the gorge and morph back. Actually, this requirement is already met: you can just reset your upgrades, morph into a gorge, reset again, and morph to whatever you want. However, it would be more convenient to allow morphing between any upgrade of the same class without dying and respawning, where class is: lifeform, weapon, or type.</li><li><b>Solving problem #4:</b> Increase the max level and adjust upgrade costs to compensate. Remove the names for each level (e.g. "captain", "ambusher"), so new ones don't have to be made (after all, nobody calls a lvl 10 marine "general"). This makes it much easier to balance upgrades.</li></ul>
Suggested specifics:<ul><li>Max level: 30, for a total of 29 UP (upgrade points)</li><li>Remove level names (e.g. "captain")</li><li>Increase experience rate by 200% to compensate</li><li>Add an option to the popup menu that resets all upgrades on your next respawn so that you can respend your upgrade points</li><li>Chamber upgrades now come in levels as in NS classic</li><li>Chamber upgrades: costs 1 UP per upgrade level</li><li>2nd hive ability: costs 3 UP</li><li>3rd hive ability: costs 3 UP, requires 2nd hive ability</li><li>Skulk: costs 0 UP; class: lifeform (default)</li><li>Gorge: costs 3 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Lerk: costs 6 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Fade: costs 7 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Onos: costs 12 UP; class: lifeform</li><li>Armor level upgrades: costs 2 UP per upgrade level</li><li>Damage level upgrades: costs 2 UP per upgrade level</li><li>LMG: costs 0 UP; class: weapon (default)</li><li>SG: costs 7 UP; class: weapon</li><li>HMG: costs 10 UP; class: weapon</li><li>GL: costs 12 UP; class: weapon</li><li>LA (light armor): costs 0 UP; class: armor (default)</li><li>HA: costs 10 UP; class: armor</li><li>JP: costs 11 UP; class: armor</li><li>Resupply: costs 5 UP</li><li>Catalyst: costs 2 UP (more if it's improved)</li><li>Motion tracking: costs 3 UP</li><li>Scannar sweep: costs 3 UP</li><li>Mines: costs 3 UP</li><li>Hand grenade: costs 2 UP (since it's now easier to switch from GL to another weapon and vice versa)</li><li>Welder: costs 3 UP</li></ul>
Comments
Care to elaborate? Disregarding the added ability to reset upgrades, simplifying parts of the tree sure seems to simplify the system. Increasing max levels and adjusting costs is not complicated, but it requires a lot of specific changes.
While I kinda like this idea, it's not something that could be done in a public beta. We'd have to go back to closed beta to test this. (there would have to be constant patches and a lot of imbalance)
As for:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The upgrade system seems to assume that certain upgrades are better than others.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is incorrect. It assumes that these upgrades are <i>more advanced</i> than others, and that access to them should be held until later in the game. This assumption allows for the game to build naturally. There are several branches people must foll in order to stay alive, and I believe your proposed system would cause people (moreso marines) to stockpile their first 10 or 12 levels and just buy a big gun earlier in the game. As the system stands now, I generally get armor 1 and weapons 1 before I spring for a big gun. I might even get Resupply first if i'm doing well.
The system as it stands now is certainly not perfect. That is no reason to switch it for a significantly more complex, probably just as flawed system. This is the debugging process of the game. You don't take a product in the debugging phase and start completely over with it unless it is completely infeasible.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Why would players want to stockpile upgrades if they can just rechoose their ugprades?