Co_angst

Immacolata · January 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Map feedback thread</div> Hi guys, I'm trying to start some map feedback discussions so that our hard work mappers can get some feedback in case they'd like to.

Try to focus on gameplay and less on aesthetitcs. The mappers are a lot better at mapping than you are, and their vision of the map is their own. However it IS hard to design a fair map without people playing it for them. But valid critique of anything is always welcome. The mappers decide what to listen to and what to ignore.

Please feel free to include screenshots of 400x300 or smaller to make your point. JPGs only.

<b>Mini-lecture in feedback courtesy</b>
Now please bear this in mind for when you give feedback

Critique is incomplete without praise.
Praise without critique is flatter and it won't help the mapper to make the map better. Save it for the "OMG I Love <ns_whatever> threads" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Now lets discuss CO_Angst

I have included a screenshot to remind people of which map I am talking about.

Ahnteis · January 2004

It's hard to get around certain parts of the hive (mostly on the left side facing out of hive). The hive is easily shot from the small doorway in the back. Anything wanting to counter must go through that small doorway or use the vent to get behind. Basically, 2 people can easily hit the hive AND watch all approach routes to their location.

Marine start gets pretty cramped when it's under attack. Makes it a bit too easy for aliens to spawn camp sometimes.

Over all though, I've always enjoyed this map.

sawce · January 2004

Two things I'm not fond of in this map, the rest of it I love.

* All the doors, they make stealth attacks next to impossible.
* The little "pit" in the hive room which is in the engine, in that small area below/behind the hive. It's too easy for a marine to hide in there, and use the complete darkness to avoid most of the attacks coming at it. An HMG marine can basically steady fire, and damage the hive along with kill any aliens which happen to run into the little pit to try to kill the marine.

Other than that, I love the map.

Sizer · January 2004

I like it, though the area included in your pic and the similar room next to it are deathtraps for the aliens. The black alcove under the hive is easily exploited by a shotty or hmg.

I'm a bit irritated because I just finished dealing with two blatant aimbotters on this very map <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' />

Jezpuh · January 2004

I like the gameplay, but some areas look a bit.. ugly. I'd say retexture or extra detail. And also, marines always take the Bridge > Observatory route if you know what I mean. The other route is somehow unattractive, I think it's because it's dark..

MrMojo · January 2004

One main thing : Change the Marine start.

An alien rush has a really good chance of succeding because the MS is so small and it looks like a track. A skulk can just bounce around the pillar biting everyone and it will take a while until someone kills him.

Also : Perhaps making some areas below ( leading to the hive) a bit lighter would help. Especially the "main room".

Both hive entrances seem to be very "hallway" like, which leads to marines killing a lot while they're in them, but dying a lot faster when they're at the hive. Perhaps another more open entrances or at least another vent ( nothing you can shoot the hive from) would help.

BreakfastSausages · January 2004

please change the alien spawn point that makes you point straight at a solid black corner , I think there may even be 2 that do that, it is disorienting and annoying.

marine start is a little bit too small.

I like that it has a good amount of complexity in the layout for a small map, there are lots of different paths you can choose the vents make for fun flanking moves and sneaking around.

Status_Quo · January 2004

As mentioned, increasing the size of marine start wouldn't hurt...

ZiGGY · January 2004

well the epic games work on map design by firstly making the rooms & boxes of cover they want first and playtesting them without any trimmings or decoration. Then when theyre happy with the layout they come up with a design and tart it up.

Narfwak · January 2004

The only fault I can think of is that the marine start is a bit cramped; it can make for some rather devastating alien rushes. However, marines tend to blast their way out anyway, so I don't think it's a big issue.

In every beta build I've played since 2.1m, this has always been my favorite co_ map. Slick textures and sound, excellent architecture, and recognizable areas that are very fun to play in are all over this map. The hive isn't so small that marines can't get in (daimos), but isn't so huge that jet packers can destroy it with little effort (rebirth). There are some medium-sized rooms and hallways that give marines a bit of an edge, but no absurdly huge areas that allow for marine domination. All in all, it's a great map, and I'd like to see it stay just the way it is.

FoolishOne9k · January 2004

This is a very well done map except for the bugs already mentioned (rine spawn, spot behind hive, and the anti cloaker doors).

Though it could use a little work considering one xeno skulk can clear an entire room and the bridge is rine camper central.

Ive played this map many times and have noticed that if the aliens can get a quick footing in the rine spawn teh rines will lose hands down (spawn cmaping and such)

If the rines make a strong offensive early on they might win but may still lose cause the hive is very easily defended.

(evil doors <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> )

Jezpuh · January 2004

Well, I'd say the doors are the aliens biggest weakness. Since they mostly have no idea what's behind it. Anyone agree?

Hyperion · January 2004

This is my second favorite map after kestrel
Admitidly there are sections (landing gear) which are dark, but in certain situations that can be useful, like when skulks run right by you. I think that the places which the aliens spawn in are too dark, it sometimes takes me 2-3 seconds to orient myself, therefore maybe put more of them in lighted areas

Stakhanov · January 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JezPuh @ Jan 31 2004, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well, I'd say the doors are the aliens biggest weakness. Since they mostly have no idea what's behind it. Anyone agree?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Doors make Scent of Fear more useful , so they're not a terrible issue.

But they weaken Cloaking , especially if the marines are camping. The "alien route" (dark rooms and lift) should have no doors , or at least not at the marine start (so that campers need to buy scan and MT to not be killed by cloakwalking or silent aliens)

Oh , and the map terribly needs weldables. Theses empty doors could be welded open to give access to an armory , like in Faceoff.

douchebagatron · January 2004

i also have a problem when im an alien and i spawn looking at straight black. also marines exploit those areas by hiding there. ive seen a shotgunner and a skulk run into one and neither died cause they couldnt see. i just heard alot of biting and shooting then they both came out.

SuperTeflon · January 2004

The 'lower level' is WAY too dark. It's really more of a detriment to marines, and aliens almost never use it because most marines are too smart to go down there, and find it much more useful to just camp the exit ladder/lift.

Maian · February 2004

Overall:

I like the contrast of the map between its upper and lower layers. The upper layer is bright. The lower layer of the map is dark - motion tracking and scent of fear are very useful here. Whether this was accidental or note, I think this is an interesting map concept. Don't brighten the lower layer.

Marine start:

The marine start could use improvement. Although it makes nade spam more effective, there's no room to spread out to minimize damage. I do like how the marine start is near a "cliff" (the elevator area) so that xenocide can result in some worldspawn kills XD

I don't like the double doors near marine spawn on the upper layer, but I can live with it.

Hive:

The little hole behind the hive should be revamped into a vent that JPers can take advantage of. That would bring an interesting twist to gameplay like the weldpoint on co_rebirth.

The narrow corridors to the hive and the ladders in the hive really disadvantage the marines. Replace the ladders with ramps.

The vent in the hive, that leads either to the "blue room" or back entrance of the hive, is rarely used since the area under its entrance is so dark. It's also disorienting when spawning in this area.

RuBy · February 2004

very nice map on the whole, the marine start could use a redo though, it is awefully easy to spawn camp as a focused skulk. My suggestion would be to remove the center pole and put the cc at one end of the room while keeping the armory sort of centered.

aaarrrgh · February 2004

Honestly not a big fan of this map, visually.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the room with the ladder, you have to cross if you choose to stick to the main route. The architecture is plain, and the ladder seems like a rushed solution. Likewise, I think that bits of the underground corridor, and the marine start are both a bit too plain. Could do with some more details.

Immacolata · February 2004

If you cannot be bothered to comply with the map feedback etiquette that I stated above, please do not participate at all. If you have only criticism to share we can't use it for much.

My own feedback is merely related to the sounds that you make near marine spawn. It sounds as marines wear rubber boots and is completely unfitting for NS. The computer room makes for some excellent fighting between aliens and marines, this is the Fun Spot on the map over them all.

To the rest of you: thanks for your feedback. I will contact ChromeAngel with a resume of the feedback and give him the link to this thread.

ChromeAngel · February 2004

Firstly i'd like to thank you all for contributing you feedback to this thread and Immacolata for organizing it. Your feedback is very much appreciated.

The most common issues, the void behind the hive, dark alien spawns and the cramped MS will be dealt with very soon. As for the rest we'll see how it goes <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

gopher · February 2004

I like that map a lot, and don't have anything to add to the "negative" aspects that have been posted already. But I've got one question, that bothered <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> me from the beginning: Is the map intended to look like a small version of bast?

Immacolata · February 2004

I got this from the beta bug forum:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psyke)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you walk into the sides of the first ladder in co_angst (out the first door, then to the far left through that door, to an oddly thick ladder) you can climb it's sides, and if you're ont he part where this is no wall behind, you end up going into it...

I know this is true for marines, and i have easily been able to replicate it.

I believe all that needs to be done to fix it is to just make the ladder a little thinner to be like the other ladders in the map.

edit: removed other half, i think it is already well known. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

ChromeAngel · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gopher @ Feb 3 2004, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I like that map a lot, and don't have anything to add to the "negative" aspects that have been posted already. But I've got one question, that bothered <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> me from the beginning: Is the map intended to look like a small version of bast?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Both maps were inspired by the same film and the hive room was conciously copied from Bast. So any likenesses are definitly not co-incidental <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

Iced_Eagle · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 31 2004, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The 'lower level' is WAY too dark. It's really more of a detriment to marines, and aliens almost never use it because most marines are too smart to go down there, and find it much more useful to just camp the exit ladder/lift.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
TOTALLY disagree... This is the way smart rines get into the hive most of the team w/ HA Trains.. not by the front door

Angst is definetely one of the top ONE (which for the nubs means its #1) Personally, Cloak + Focus + Silence + Carapace= teh pwn...... 54 kills, 13 deaths is my best record

rines need a ladder again in the back IMHO because most of the time now they just fall down and take damage and not take elevator :\

the hive needs to be a bit more lerk friendly cause of those pesky JPers that fly in the pipes and lerks are hard to control near pipes... Just a little cleanup <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

i love this map!

Immacolata · February 2004

I am closing this thread, since ChromeAngel has submitted a new revision to Flayra, and you can all check it out in beta 3.<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/downloads.html' target='_blank'>beta 3</a>.

<span style='color:red'>**** LOCKED ****</span>

Co_angst

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