Elec Tf Or 3 Point Sentry Defense
CplDavis
I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">marine starting options.</div> So guys, what does the rest of the NS community think is better at start.
(this is for those comms who use the "stack everything around the TF strat at start" strat.
1. Stash stuff around TF and electrify it
2. Stash stuff around TF and put 3 Sentries in a 3 point triangle defense.
Its not too much of a cost difference and people say that the 3 sentries basically gives you the same defense options as elec but with range.
i saw 2 very good and expirienced comms debating this earlier and I was just curious as to what everyone else does.
(this is for those comms who use the "stack everything around the TF strat at start" strat.
1. Stash stuff around TF and electrify it
2. Stash stuff around TF and put 3 Sentries in a 3 point triangle defense.
Its not too much of a cost difference and people say that the 3 sentries basically gives you the same defense options as elec but with range.
i saw 2 very good and expirienced comms debating this earlier and I was just curious as to what everyone else does.
Comments
seconded.
though if i sense my team formation is pretty hopeless from start, i put 2 turrets (1 at either side of base) and hope aliens arent clever enough to seek blindspots.
1 pack of mines should be enough to keep your base alive for a while unless the skulks just dominate, in which case it doesn't matter because you will probably lose anyway. And then you have enough left over for some res nodes, or *gasp* even upgrades!
With regard to the actual question: electricity vs. 3 turrets, electricity wins the prize, sleeps with the prom queen, and kicks sand in 3 turrets' faces. Against 3 turrets, assuming you spaced them out to cover everything, 1 or 2 skulks can easily get in on the tf in a blind spot, or even a spot where only 1 turret hits them, and take out the tf. It is much more tricky to out-skill electricity.
Now, I would say forego even the mines and build the basic tech buildings you want. Then place mines if you are getting harassed a lot. Most of the time on a pub they won't come even close to the base if you're putting any pressure on them.
Ooo good point. Gonna keep that in mind. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1 Mine=Dead <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
BUT! Sometimes a blown mine will set off other mines around it.
2 Meter is about the blast radius. I wouldn't drop any mines or turrets at all. Well maybe I could make an exception for mines, but definitely no turrets. All you really need is an Electrified Turret factory, then build your base around that, maybe mine of the base entrances or around the base a bit.
2 Meter is about the blast radius. I wouldn't drop any mines or turrets at all. Well maybe I could make an exception for mines, but definitely no turrets. All you really need is an Electrified Turret factory, then build your base around that, maybe mine of the base entrances or around the base a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A Regen fade would have no problem with that. Any marine that spawns will also meet a swift end. Unless you can get your marines to return sharpish, or plaster the ips with shotguns, you've lost already.
TF electification is ok for the first 5 minutes. After that, AT LEAST 3 turrets is essential IMO. Mine traps around the tf work, but light mining the entrances will only slow a fade; he will take a mine hit, retreat, regen, then just continue.
Mines will, however, blow holes in mass-skulk rushes.
I jsut played a game where 10 (yes, 10,) skulks rushed a marine base after 15mins of play. Rines had 6 rts, and we had lost our second hive. Things did not look good.
No marines in base, and only 2 skulks died before the tf went down. (It was elec.) The remaining 8 made short work of the Ips, pg, armoury...
The morale of this story? Mines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
True, but it is the most reliable and quick to set up base defense in pubs. Mines are nice, but you can't guarantee that the people who pick them up will drop them in logical places (if you know 2 good people, this is not necessarily true). Also, you have to drop an armory immediately, so if you have 4+ humper types on your team, this will slow getting RT's. Many people might say "well if your team is half nubs, you've lost anyway." Not necessarily true - the alien team could be the same way - once you get 4 nodes capped immediately, the scales tip in favor of the rines. eTF at the beginning really does stop a skulk rush - if they spawn camp, then the rest of your team has free reign to roam the map and attack their hive. Once the PG at base goes up, 2-3 turrets and one pack of mines should be added.
3 Sentries works alright for skulks, assuming a clever one doesnt find a blindspot - but Fades will shrug those off like theyre nothing. At least electricity hurts him somewhat.
So in large games, I like the elctrified TF surrounded by buildings. In smaller, a pack or two of mines is best. Of course when 3.0 comes out, and mines get RFK, with an average of 2 res per kill, theyre going to pay for themselves while defending the base... so I think they'll become a LOT more popular.
But then again, what are upgrades good for? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though, for early defence, a pack of mines or two is more than enough.
A skulk rush is easily counterd by a few mines and/or some half decent shots; remember, bullets are faster than skulks.
The smart thing to do is save your res for upgrades and nodes.
(this is for those comms who use the "stack everything around the TF strat at start" strat.
1. Stash stuff around TF and electrify it
2. Stash stuff around TF and put 3 Sentries in a 3 point triangle defense.
Its not too much of a cost difference and people say that the 3 sentries basically gives you the same defense options as elec but with range.
i saw 2 very good and expirienced comms debating this earlier and I was just curious as to what everyone else does. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
neither
The tf + turrets is too expensive if you want to cover all blindspots.
Get a marine to put 2 pack of mines around the buildings and you have a nice defense for maybe a half round, since in public games people don't rush the base very often at all.
Another idea i got,but never tested would be one tf,one pack of mines,and one turret to keep the parasiters away/early warning.
Now 2 mines at the turret and the rest somwhere in base.
Maybe another pack-o-mines.
This way u can elec rt,have a small cover and still mines in base,costs 45 to 55 res.
Tf and 3 turrets are 55.
Elec tf the same.
Any ideas?
mines are risky in a pub situation, as you have no idea if the rines will place then in good spots.. or just on the wall :S in clan scrims, mines seem to be the key though.
elec tfac are nice in that they scare away bigger lifeforms who have no support, but are not guarantteed to cover all you important assets.
so for range, ease of use, late game position holding, early warning, i prefer turrets to anything else for pub marine base defense.
either that.. or.. if i'm pressuring hard, just upgrades with one marine base guard <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So now what do we do for a reliable and easy base defence? All signs point to mines - but if you want to electrify RTs, it makes things a bit sticky. PLUS - on pubs, especially with the influx of noobs, I wouldn't drop mines on people's heads. It doesn't autoswitch to them anymore, so it's possible somebody would never even notice they received them. Drop them on the ground and manually instruct them to mine the base. As far as electrification now, a slightly risky but useful strat is to drop 1 IP + armory + 1 pack of mines at start, and have the whole team - 1 guard head off in the opposite direction of the hive. Find an objective you want to lock down (hive or double res, or maybe important central location ie. Temperature Control), and head towards it, capping all the nodes on the way. When you get there, finally drop the TF + 3-4 turrets, and electrify it. I know, that's 75-85 res, but at this point you already have 4-5 RTs and have only spent 10 res on base defense. After this you can pour your money into upgrades and phase tech, and possibly electrifying some res nodes if you think it will be worth it.
This sucks if your team gets ambushed and slaughtered before they make it, but if that happens just make another IP and start upgrading. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but it can really help control the map. Just last night on caged aliens had Vent hive - had my rines take Stability and Aux Gen, <i>then</i> head to double. The alien team expected an earlier rush to double, thought it was clear and started to build there. The marines rushed in and quickly set up the defenses in Central and took down the counterattack without problem. From there, all that was necessary was harassing Shipping Tunnels and Purification and gg.
And comms dont realise that if they plunk down a TF in a area that leads to another part of the level, your taking time from the aliens as they have to avoid/take down the TF, which helps your marines respond to attacks. Find one marine thats any good and give him a welder and mines whenever he asks for them and your defense is set for a good portion of the game.
Summery of thread: Mines are great for instant Defenses, Turrets are good long term investments and/or long range areas (hive rooms, long hallways, farms), Elec TFs/RTs are the middle man
- theres plenty of noobs who walk off half a mile with them, then place them somewhere stupid
- theres STILL plenty of skilled people who plant them at entrances rather than structures
i imagine a skulk seeing the mines, getting on the ceiling, going by the mines, eat ip, and say gg mines
...but hey, theyre still better than turrets <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mines: The best solution, for clans. Not the best solution on pubs. Intelligent aliens + stupid marines = gg. Why? Mines are excellent at killing skulks, in fact the most reliable way, they provide instant kills. As an additional bonus, if a late-game alien raid attacks you, your mines are there to weaken up a fade or onos. You also save 20 res (that's another RT early game!)
Disadvantages: on a pub, newbs tend to make mine defences a lot less effective. In addition, with the new abilities to kill mines, they are somewhat less effective. They are also a need-to-replace defence, meaning if 3 or so skulks blow the mines, you effectively need to drop another pack (although now that you get res credited to rines for it, it offsets this cost.) Does not allow electrification of RTs.
2) Sentires: 3 sentries usually still have one blind spot, OR only one sentry can fire on a skulk approaching at the proper angle, meaning that if two skulks do they, can chew up the sentry... and you (The comm) will probably have to get out, pray you don't get owned!
Advantages: Long range, can shoot targets incoming, prevents spawn camping, may help a bit late game (although sentries are still very very weak vs. larger lifeforms, by the simple amt of HP they have). Allows electrifications of RTs
Disadvantages: Easily destroyed by more than 1 skulk (or even 1 skulk, assuming no rines in base of course). If destroyed, they will cost you ten res, rines need time to build the 3 sentries. Any fewer will leave a blind spot for sure; if not placed properly may leave a blind spot.
Electrification: Advantages: Can cover up to 6 buildings around it, effective against skulks, even with the elec damage nerf (2 electric blasts still come out). Destroying electrifed TF as a skulk is nearly impossible (esp. with new range). Allows electrification of RTs
Disadvantages: Provides no protection against higher lifeforms. Allows aliens to spawn camp.
Summary: Against a consorted skulk rush (read: 5+), mines are the only effective way to stop them, and even then, after the first 2 or 3 skulks blow, the other 2 are left pretty much to tramp your IP(s). Sentries will be bitten apart in a few seconds, and electrification can be easily defeated (if a gorge is present), and until then aliens will spawn camp. However, this type of coordination is rare, and marines are USUALLY somewhere near your base. Ideally (for me at least), you don't want to jump out of the comm chair (if you get killed... well oh ****).
So now for the part we've all been waiting for: My opinion =p. My favorite solution on pubs is: electrified TF. Why? 1) it discourages even groups of skulks from attacking (unless they are HIGHLY cooridinated and haev a gorge with them). The spawn camping problem: after a few electrification zaps, they will either be dead or very close to dying, so they cannot spawn camp for very long. If the aliens are that well coordinated (to have 3 skulks + a gorge rush base) anyway, they are likely to have all 3 hives up asap, and ambushing your marines in teams and killing them off. So maybe you've lost anyway =), but usually this is not an issue.
The problem later in the game with higher lifeforms being able to take out an electrifed TF is valid. But by then, I hope you have PGs and an obs. Worse comes to worse, Beacon you men back, and at least force the alien to run (best case, your rines kill it, maybe you had a hand in that by ordering your rines to chase it =) ) I almost never build sentries anywhere, as they are ineffective against anythimng except for skulks, and possible lurks. The damage they use is so minimal, especailly against the new fade and onos hp/armor, they deal a truely insignificant amount of damage, and anything killed by them (other than a skulk) is merely pure luck. Not enough aliens die to sentries to justify the cost of sentries.
I stop electrifying Rts after the first fades begin to appear (as it's useless after that), with the exception of electrifying the hive RT, which I put a PG near. I like to play as an agressive comm though (yeah yeah, whatever, they can have that hive [read: my pg there just went down], but I'm taking this one, right NOW [and the obvious advantage to that is they need to wait the 2 minutes it takes to put the new hive up, and that's a long time for onos to not have stomp, and a long time for a fade not to have metabolize). Also, I don't believe in electrifying EVERY res nodes, only those close to probable areas on conflict, which vary from map to map, and even from game to game [sometimes]. universal rine upgrades > sentries > electrifying all. Trust thy marines commanders, even in a pub they will server you better than any defense ever will.