3.0: Balanced Res
curlydave
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21855Members
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21855Members
<div class="IPBDescription">balance for large and small games?</div> I think it's common knowledge that aliens have a significant resource advantage in small games, and marines in large games. Sure there are exceptions, but generally speaking, this needs to be fixed.
The problem comes from the fact that one person with 100 resources is alot stronger than 5 with 20 resources. It has to do with some principle in life that applies to this game.
I think this issue is something much more important than most of the things added in the change log. In small games, aliends can drop OCs non stop, and go onos before the marines can have any technology available to stop them. Also, resource flow to aliens is extremely slow when divided among 12+ people.
I'm not sure exactly how to fix this, but perhaps implement a change in resource click speed for the aliens, so that they actually acculate less resources per tower in small games, and more res per tower in larger games. I think this might help balance it.
The problem comes from the fact that one person with 100 resources is alot stronger than 5 with 20 resources. It has to do with some principle in life that applies to this game.
I think this issue is something much more important than most of the things added in the change log. In small games, aliends can drop OCs non stop, and go onos before the marines can have any technology available to stop them. Also, resource flow to aliens is extremely slow when divided among 12+ people.
I'm not sure exactly how to fix this, but perhaps implement a change in resource click speed for the aliens, so that they actually acculate less resources per tower in small games, and more res per tower in larger games. I think this might help balance it.
Comments
Someone told me once that the phenomenon was a "figment of my imagination" lol. Anyway, no sorry, its still the same.
I believe it was tried because of that insane res bug, where aliens could easily get res because individually, they would all get 1 res per tick. Yes ALL of them. Throw in a few more RTs and the bug is reproduced. Unfortunately it didn't work as well as planned (or it could be a wrongly deleted line of code)
In small games maybe. Every played a 9v9 or larger game? All the comm needs to say is, ok, everybody out and hunt rts. The aliens would barely stand a chance.
I believe it was tried because of that insane res bug, where aliens could easily get res because individually, they would all get 1 res per tick. Yes ALL of them. Throw in a few more RTs and the bug is reproduced. Unfortunately it didn't work as well as planned (or it could be a wrongly deleted line of code) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just a matter of having a good formula for it no?
Aliens now barely have a chance against the fast tech of the marines in 8+ games.
Now the res each alien gets is divided by the number of aliens there are which can be between 1 and 10 on most servers. Perhaps this should be limited, so they get it on a scale devided between 5 and 8...
<span style='color:yellow'><span style='color:gray'>....</span>1<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>2<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>3<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>4<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>5<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>6<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>7<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>8<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>9<span style='color:gray'>....</span>10<span style='color:gray'>...</span>11<span style='color:gray'>...</span>12<span style='color:gray'>...</span>13</span>
<span style='color:yellow'><span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.3<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.6<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.9<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.2<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.5<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.8<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.1<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.4<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.7<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span></span>
It;s just a rough idea, and would need tweaking, but imo this would balance it quite a bit for larger and smaller game...
Right now the total res for each team is the same per RT. An example of the fallacy in this would be one alien with 15 resources compared to 3 with 5 resources each. The one with 15 could drop a resource tower, and continue progress with the game, while teh 3 with 5 would continue gaining resources slowly, and wouldn't be able to do anything for a while. United things in general, wheather it be military troops, workers on a project, or accumulated income, eg res is more useful than dived things, and this is where the problem originates.
I personally think that dealing with this problem is much more important than adding goodies such as hand grenades, catpacks etc.
Besides , on pub games the veterans really should join the disadvantaged team , to keep the game challenging for the other one.
Wouldn't that give the alien team more players? Which would divide the res out further?
While your idea has its merits, and would give the dev team more team to create a better resource model, we can't just sidestep this problem stakhanov, sooner or later something has to be developed that works as well for large as it does small teams.
The res system is perhaps the #1 reason why right now in 2.01 you see aliens lose to marines who turtle in a hive. Aliens get res so slowly and marines have cheap cheap upgrades that are super effective in the mass quantities of firepower.
This is what I proposed in the beta forum to solve this huge issue:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets say, for arguments sake, the most balanced size of an NS game is 6v6. This is clan standard.
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
On larger games(8v8 or more), the arms lab is more than worth it’s cost. You upgrade all of your marines for a fraction of the cost of what buying them all equipment would be, and it’s much more effective as there are more guns that get the upgrades. In smaller games(4v4 or less), the arms lab is crap compared to outfitting your 3-4 marines with some good equipment. Arms lab will still be important in small games, however, it comes second to equipment. And the opposite is true in large games.
The Arms Lab, believe it or not, is what causes a lot of unbalancing on large and small games right now, it’s either too good or too bad. On large games, you see stalemates quite often because aliens can’t hope to compete with marines that come out of spawn that shred them to pieces easily, even with an LMG, as there is such a high volume of it all. That is why large games almost never end early, as marines get their arms lab upgrades for too good of a cost, and they get them all very quickly, resulting in marines that generally cannot do well on attack, but pretty much own on defense, forcing aliens to get their third hive for some uber powerful abilities (or if the aliens chose sensory first so they can get Def or Move chambers).
So, the fix for the arms lab is to make it proportional to the amount of marines playing.
For 6 marines, the cost is 20/30/40.
For 12 marines, you have double the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 40/60/80.
For 3 marines, you have half the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 10/15/20.
However, just by looking at the numbers presented here I’m sure all the commanders must be dropping their Jaw’s onto the floor screaming: “NO WAY! 40 res for the first set of upgrades? TOO MUCH!” Or… “10 res on a 3 man server? It’s practically free ffs!” And, for the most part, they are right.
So, a small modification to the above said proposal: Only add/subtract 50% additional cost for every 100% increase/decrease in marines.
12 marines: 30/45/60
3 marines: 15/23/30
This is a formula that needs to be calculated, one that figures out the cost of the arms labs upgrades based on how many marines there are.
An easy way to calculate the costs of these upgrades if you are without a calculator is:
For every 3 marines lost/gained over 6, add/subtract 5 res for the first upgrade, add/subtract 7 res for the second upgrade, and add/subtract 10 res for the third upgrade.
Very simple, and this would balance out the arms lab completely, no matter the teamsize.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, just for the record, ever see those people who scream "NS ISN'T BALANCED FOR PUBS!!"
Well, this is why NS isn't balanced for pubs. It's less to do with anything other than the fact that marines get upgrades too easily. The pub atmosphere itself doesn't need to be fixed, the fact is pubs are on large games (10v10 on average) which leaves the marines with dirt cheap upgrades for lots of marines and aliens who get income at a snails pace.
Remember folks, don't say NS isn't balanced for pubs, the real issue are the teamsizes.
Even if their res increase is proportional to the number of players, they lose more in big size games.
It is true they can have Onos without waiting longer time even in big size games if res model is fixed.
But the real reason why aliens lose more in big size games is not numbers of Onos.
The real reason is numbers of Heavy Armor that marines can throw in combat.
If team size is 6 on each team, Aliens will never have to fight against more than 5 HAs.
But if team size is 12 on each team, Aliens will have to fight against max 11 HAs (it is not difficult in 2.01 for cheap cost of HA).
5 Onos vs 5 HAs = Aliens win
6 Onos vs 6 HAs = Aliens win maybe
But how about 10 Onos vs 10 HAs ? How about 12 Onos vs 12 HAs ?
The bigger team size is the more effective HA squad is.
It is possible that 10 HAs stick together. But it is impossible that 10 Onos stick together.
There are no such vast places in NS maps.
This is why in big size games Onos die more often even if Alien res model is fixed.
My conclusion:
Alien Resource model is not essentially a problem.
The best way to keep balance is setting max players around 18. Over 20 players is not acceptable.
*chuckle*
Scaling of resources for both teams would be nice, but it would take an insane amount of playtesting and altering to get it to a point where neither team has the advantage.
The problem with the 1.04 system is that more gorges = slower expansion, something that didn't really make sense.
Even if their res increase is proportional to the number of players, they lose more in big size games.
It is true they can have Onos without waiting longer time even in big size games if res model is fixed.
But the real reason why aliens lose more in big size games is not numbers of Onos.
The real reason is numbers of Heavy Armor that marines can throw in combat.
If team size is 6 on each team, Aliens will never have to fight against more than 5 HAs.
But if team size is 12 on each team, Aliens will have to fight against max 11 HAs (it is not difficult in 2.01 for cheap cost of HA).
5 Onos vs 5 HAs = Aliens win
6 Onos vs 6 HAs = Aliens win maybe
But how about 10 Onos vs 10 HAs ? How about 12 Onos vs 12 HAs ?
The bigger team size is the more effective HA squad is.
It is possible that 10 HAs stick together. But it is impossible that 10 Onos stick together.
There are no such vast places in NS maps.
This is why in big size games Onos die more often even if Alien res model is fixed.
My conclusion:
Alien Resource model is not essentially a problem.
The best way to keep balance is setting max players around 18. Over 20 players is not acceptable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are pretty stupid aliens then. Marines are the brute force and ranged race. You aren't supposed to engage the enemy when the enemy has the advantage. Those onos would be better off assaulting some point where the HA are not at, or surprising the HA. Lerks and gorges would be most helpful.
The problem with the 1.04 system is that more gorges = slower expansion, something that didn't really make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant by the res-flow system. As in 1.04 your team would get a larger res flow if you had many guys on your team. But that lead to the marines getting insane amount of res during large games, just as it is now. I meant that they didn't fix the problem, but they covered it up behind a new res-system that doesn't work either.
That's supposed to give the aliens an advantage with all the chambers, healing, and fast reinforcements.
That's supposed to give the aliens an advantage with all the chambers, healing, and fast reinforcements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine, but right outside the hive (in a normal sieging position), marines will put up a pg. They now have matched fast reinforcements, and aliens don't have chambers/healing to help them.