'forcing' Balance Isn't The Way
SuperTeflon
Join Date: 2003-12-31 Member: 24893Banned
Join Date: 2003-12-31 Member: 24893Banned
Thinking about another thread where we talked about tactics being 'stuck' because it works, I thought about the biggest example:
D - M - S
Why?
Defense will help you in the beginning the most. Arguably you could get away with movement, but generally:
1) Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY. Every upgrade can have a purpose in the game. There's really no justifying NOT taking at least one upgrade. Either by irritating the marines with a constant barrage of dissapearing onii (Which, to a non-turreted base, generally ends up REQUIRING at least one marine to stand around at base defending), soaking up the damage as a fade (Which IMO doesn't soak enough <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->), or becoming the regen tank-o-doom, you can do no wrong with a defence chamber.
2) Movement chambers are more limited. Celerity as a lerk? Adrenaline is MUCH more useful. The upgrades are more limited, only benefitting some lifeforms in some way. Silence as an onos can be fun, but face it, running 20 feet down a corridor only to die by a marine emptying and reloading his clip 12 times isn't funny. It's downright sad.
3) Sensory Chambers. Some swear by them, and some commanders laugh into voice comm as they drop a couple observatories and proceed to neutralize the network. Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great. In the early game, you dont need scent of fear: Marines will be toiling about their base like ants, or heading to res nodes. In maps like mineshaft, or Tanith, sense of fear is useless, because the map is so damned small or linear you can get around or predict movements. (It is, however, very useful in a map like eclipse).
So what does Flayra do to 'fix' the balance? Give sensory a great upgrade. Replace pheremones with a damage-increasnig attack that pretty much nerfs the alien when he faces anything that takes more then 2 bites to kill. (Think about it, reduced damage output over time due to reduced ROF means a non focus skulk can kill a level 3 armor marine faster then a focused one)
So what's this mean? This means that the build order will STILL be D - M - S. Except, like shotgun rushes, every few games will crop up a S first in an 'all or nothing' attack. I've read the testimonials about how focus completely DESTROYS early game marines, but I've not read anything that suggests it's even worth the time gestating to it in late game, which leads me to believe it's totally worthless.
Forcing balance by giving a 'great' upgrade to an otherwise super-specialized, easy to counter, crap-**** chamber isn't the way to do it. Focus will show up in a few early games to lead to wins, then when people realize that, just like old sensory chambers, the only upgrade worth having for high evolutions is SoF, you're back to the same ol' grind of D - M - S.
Hmph.
D - M - S
Why?
Defense will help you in the beginning the most. Arguably you could get away with movement, but generally:
1) Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY. Every upgrade can have a purpose in the game. There's really no justifying NOT taking at least one upgrade. Either by irritating the marines with a constant barrage of dissapearing onii (Which, to a non-turreted base, generally ends up REQUIRING at least one marine to stand around at base defending), soaking up the damage as a fade (Which IMO doesn't soak enough <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->), or becoming the regen tank-o-doom, you can do no wrong with a defence chamber.
2) Movement chambers are more limited. Celerity as a lerk? Adrenaline is MUCH more useful. The upgrades are more limited, only benefitting some lifeforms in some way. Silence as an onos can be fun, but face it, running 20 feet down a corridor only to die by a marine emptying and reloading his clip 12 times isn't funny. It's downright sad.
3) Sensory Chambers. Some swear by them, and some commanders laugh into voice comm as they drop a couple observatories and proceed to neutralize the network. Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great. In the early game, you dont need scent of fear: Marines will be toiling about their base like ants, or heading to res nodes. In maps like mineshaft, or Tanith, sense of fear is useless, because the map is so damned small or linear you can get around or predict movements. (It is, however, very useful in a map like eclipse).
So what does Flayra do to 'fix' the balance? Give sensory a great upgrade. Replace pheremones with a damage-increasnig attack that pretty much nerfs the alien when he faces anything that takes more then 2 bites to kill. (Think about it, reduced damage output over time due to reduced ROF means a non focus skulk can kill a level 3 armor marine faster then a focused one)
So what's this mean? This means that the build order will STILL be D - M - S. Except, like shotgun rushes, every few games will crop up a S first in an 'all or nothing' attack. I've read the testimonials about how focus completely DESTROYS early game marines, but I've not read anything that suggests it's even worth the time gestating to it in late game, which leads me to believe it's totally worthless.
Forcing balance by giving a 'great' upgrade to an otherwise super-specialized, easy to counter, crap-**** chamber isn't the way to do it. Focus will show up in a few early games to lead to wins, then when people realize that, just like old sensory chambers, the only upgrade worth having for high evolutions is SoF, you're back to the same ol' grind of D - M - S.
Hmph.
Comments
I'd have to see it to believe it (In fact the first revision said 'celerity lerk? Please') but my point still stands: Movement chamber is a 'special' chamber that only a couple upgrades are useful to a couple lifeforms, and sensory is like the 'elite' chamber: Cloaking is rediculous for anything but a skulk (or possibly a gorge. In fact it can be great fun to a gorge if you have the balls to take advantage of it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Although, keep in mind movement chambers will soon get another boost. I'm fairly sure (don't quote me) this will happen:
- Movement chambers can now warp to building hives even when not under attack
No, and you can't make me stop. I have just as much a right to comment on 3.0 as anyone, unless you want to throw your demands to shut up into the '3.0 sounds awesome' threads and say "There's a huge chance it'll suck."
After 2.0 I don't trust ANY tester to 'do his job' on NS.
focus onos is not very fun... at all, everything is pretty accurate
sensory still is virtually no help in late games <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> though focus was a better upgrade, but sensory needs a diff upgrade to help later on
- Movement chambers can now warp to building hives even when not under attack<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm...interesting. This would be perfect for fast expanding (getting 2nd hive fast). Still, it's riskier than just going defense.
Aliens draw so much strength but are seriously hindered without dc and regen capability, onos/fade especially (then this probably stems from the whole meelee vs ranged thing, marines can inflict a lot of damage on an alien before it can even attack). the only way to change the build orders would be to spread the defensive power accross all the chambers (like i suggested a long time ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) and drop these stupid nomenclature
No, and you can't make me stop. I have just as much a right to comment on 3.0 as anyone, unless you want to throw your demands to shut up into the '3.0 sounds awesome' threads and say "There's a huge chance it'll suck."
After 2.0 I don't trust ANY tester to 'do his job' on NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, you are right, we can't make you stop, but the mods can.
What right do you have to comment on 3.0? As much as everybody else. agreed.
What right does everybody else have to comment on 3.0? <b>Absolutely b****r all!</b> NS is a game created by 1 guy, released to the public for free. He can do what he bloody well likes with it. <b>It's his game for pete's sake.</b> If you don't like it, don't play it. Now maybe if you had had a hand in it's development, you may just be justified in saying "I don't think this is working" but, AFAIK, you are just some guy who d/l this game from fileplanet, found the forums and stated flaming the guy who created it. Sorry, but that's not right.
Yes, 2.0 had some issues. However, <b>NEWSFLASH!</b> This is 3.0, not 2.0. The nuimber of testers is over 10 times as many as there were in 2.0. There are dedicated forums and IRC channels. We already have enough lamers saying "OMG this is overpowered!!" Please, the devs don't need any more, especially completely unjustified ones.
2) I can easily see focus winning games. Focus makes unupgraded marines fall to skulks way too easy. Seriously, two focused skulks often times take out squads of marines in an ambush. With an upgrade like this, taking control of a second hive is simple. That's when you get your other upgrades.
3) I really never understood the point of defense chambers first. What good do they do at the start of a match when everyone is a skulk? The winner is typically decided by who spotted who first in skulk vs. LA/LMG marine combat, it's not worth spending two res every time you spawn to get carapace as a skulk since you either finish the fight at full health or no health. Regen? That's a joke - might get 8hp in the middle of a fight. Redemption is absolutely worthless for skulks. The only real purpose I saw for early DC was for the chambers' capability; I always preferred going as celerity skulk and living twice as long simply because I move so fast.
I personally like sc games, both as marine and as alien, because its fun.
SC is also very effective given a decent amount of teamwork.
I can see the emense potential in the new focus ability in combination
with a quickly established sensory network done by some buisy gorges.
But the major disadvantage of SC as first chamber remains.
It is not usefull to destroy marine outposts. So if the team does not manage to
trap the marines in their base and scure the hives,the game is blasted. Period.
Focus will not change this from all I heard.
So IMO, the only way to break the D-M-S strat, is to unchain the upgrades from the
Hives like it was done with the evolutions.
I suggest to allow all upgrade chambers to be build by any gorge at any given time
in any area.
The chambers are fully functional, with teh exeption, that any alien may only choose ONE
upgrade per hive.
This way, everybody may choose his preferred way to play, and the team is not bound on
one strategy after the first chamber has been chosen.
No one may ruin the other ones day by choosing a chamber no one likes or whatever,
and , the most important thing, the game would become less predictable.
Although im not sure focus' use on fades will be very beneficial as missing your hit is quite common? perhaps it will become too strong in good hands and desperatly weak in nubbeh's?
Oh yeh and gorge spit is pretty hard to hit people with atm and with focus doesnt it make it twice as hard? Seems to be an species specific upgrade.
And doesnt focus help mid game skulks with leap and bite?
The removal of spikes meant that adren wasnt a necessity.
I never understood why the MC lost the celerity boost it had in 2.0.
Oh yeh and another downside to SC is the fact to get full use, it is often quite expensive to cover a map in SC.
I havent played 3.0 and am just using logic and info i have read to make the basis of my reply <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- RD
.... are you stupid?
there is more to a game than just coding you know..
LOL, remember when 2.00 came out? Everybody got flamed and told that they should come back 2 months later.
Of course, you were here when 2.0 was released to know that what DID come out was not what the playtesters balanced. What they had created was deemed PERFECTLY balanced, but too slow and not fun. Basically, the balance in 2.0 was a rush job done in a matter of days once that was realised. Thus 2.0 was not balanced, and it was not the fault of the playtesters. In fact, we can go on to blame the release date, for it forced the game to come out when the balance was not ready.
ps: While we are waiting for 3.0, Id actually like to see how the original slow and perfectly balanced 2.0 is like. It would be a good, yet cheap way of keeping the community busy while they keep building 3.0 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When you drop sensory chamber first, you will realize that, with some teamwork, it will be possible to make res way quicker than with defense. If you just lock down all hallways going to marine start with a couple of cloaked skulks in the ceilings, the marines have no chance at all to expand in the first couple of minutes.
And during that time, gorges can put up another hive, cap all the res nodes and drop more sensory chambers all over the map so that all aliens can benefit from them even if they didnt choose cloaking.
Because I think that skulk is the most fun alien class, I love to drop sensory first. But movement would be great too, with silence or celerity skulks.
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From my experience so far, I find that most of the times the people who favor defense chambers as the first chambers are those who will go fade first (a.k.a. as res 'hoarders').
When you drop sensory chamber first, you will realize that, with some teamwork, it will be possible to make res way quicker than with defense. If you just lock down all hallways going to marine start with a couple of cloaked skulks in the ceilings, the marines have no chance at all to expand in the first couple of minutes.
And during that time, gorges can put up another hive, cap all the res nodes and drop more sensory chambers all over the map so that all aliens can benefit from them even if they didnt choose cloaking.
Because I think that skulk is the most fun alien class, I love to drop sensory first. But movement would be great too, with silence or celerity skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But what happens when they successfully relocate to a hive and then lock down a second one before your team can pull together? Or the Elec res node with obs next to it tactic? or aliens arn't willing to invest money to get a sense chain?
Too many factors to rely on... at least with def chambers you get the ability to fight not sick back and defend with cloak. Def means hoarders with large lifeforms live longer. Plus you can attack electric res nodes with one fade rather than a fade and a gorge. It is far cheaper as people dont need DC's everywhere.
Oops this is not a which chamber is better thread.
Ah well seems like DC will win again due to above reasons and the latest factor, the learning curve for SC's will greatly escalate due to having to learn to time attacks for focus.
- RD
Agreed. Unfortunately veterans and cms believe it is their duty to remind us that we don't know what we are talking about and they do (because they have played the beta and we haven't). He has some good points, and we should discuss 3.0. People were told 2.0 would be perfectly balanced by veterans and playtesters, they were wrong. It's only natural that people have their doubts.
bite 1-2 : focus better
bite 3-13: non-focus better
bite 13+: focus better
this means that focus is great against unarmoured 'rines AND many structures. also note that these stats are without having celerity applied in which all attacks are better with focus as the time penalty is basically erased. This may not be the upgrade in the long game for support lerks, fades, and oni (as they already do plenty of damage and they usually need adren) but is great for skulks and biting lerks as long as they stick with celerity.