Marines Getting Raped By Kharaa
MistenTH
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">anyone else feel the same?</div> The servers I play on are usually filled to 80% capacity with regulars. Practically everyone knows what to do, what does what, what has to be done, responds to calls and knows how to fight with a lmg, skulk, fade etc.
The fast elect-rt route is a fairly surefire way to win a game, if there's a lack of teamwork on the kharaa side, and savers. But, since the players i play with are experienced, in virtually all games, the hive is up by latest 4 minutes, and a fade and/or lerk with 3dcs by 3-5 minutes. A single fade will singlehandedly own all the elect-rts, and marines are screwed without income. Sometimes, there are even gorge gangs that plop OCs to knock down these RTs within the 1st minute.
It takes nearly 4 minutes for an elect-rt to turn a profit, and fades negate that easily.
The naked-rt route doesn't work well either, since it only takes 1-2 dedicated skulk patrollers to put an end to your RTs. Marines can patrol yes, but if you're trying to siege a hive or clear a place out, patrolling tends to be neglected. So, this way is a big no-no too.
Turtling is obviously a deathtrap, given the speed the 2nd hive is upped, and the 3-4 rts that are built.
Lerk sporing totally prevents marines from holding any outpost for long, negates L1 armour, screws up marines and makes them easy meat. They also counter shotguns.
Fades make short work of marines, since the range is negated. At hive 2, skulks with leap can charge into the marine ranks, and easily take out even upgraded marines.
I'm an experienced comm, and I've tried every style ranging from liberal to conservative. Some games I've gone out aggressively, very aggressively, but the game is lost because of a single failed attack. Whereas the kharaa have it easy and can afford multiple failures, marines need to be on the ball every single step of the way. There is no room for failure for marines if both teams are good.
Marines have roughly a -3- minute window of dominance at the start, then they have to start defending, or sneak to attack, else be torn apart by fades and lerks.
Then, by the 5 minute mark, if they haven't begun to take down a hive, any elect-rts will be dying from fades, if not earlier from gorges. Naked rts will be gone a long time ago.
By 8 minutes, the marines will be down to pretty much their own base and whatever tech they managed to obtain. If they haven't knocked out enough aliens rts and a hive by then, it's gg.
A single fade can rape marines and elect RTs.
A single skulk can rape RTs and marines if ambushed.
A single lerk can turn marines into pulp.
Marines take teamwork to win, which is right. They are strong, very strong, if they keep the targets at range. Fade blink, lerk spores, hive2 skulkleap negates all that. Armour or no armour. Until HA or jets are achieved (which takes a damn long time and loads of res), marines are easy prey.
Some of these imbalances are being fixed in 3.0.
The lerk is now killable with the new hitbox.
The lerkbite, which i consider a NERF, gives marines a chance to kill the lerk without dying in 5 lerk spikes (a single skulk bite reduces marine to 75hp and 0 armour).
The fade costs 60 res. (although he ends up useless in late game if marines can tech up).
I always thought more marine starting res would do much more than changing 101 variables but that's just me. At any rate, barring balance changes aside, does anyone have any viable tactics that I have not thought of.
Keep in mind the players I'm with are all experienced. Shotgun rushes tend to be noticed the moment it leaves base due to parasite. Siege attempts are usually stopped by a lerk or a fade. PG attack bases end up being spawn camped etc etc. And in case you don't realise it, whatever strat that must work has to work before the 8 minute mark, and must be easily carried out before the 3 minute mark.
Thanks.
The fast elect-rt route is a fairly surefire way to win a game, if there's a lack of teamwork on the kharaa side, and savers. But, since the players i play with are experienced, in virtually all games, the hive is up by latest 4 minutes, and a fade and/or lerk with 3dcs by 3-5 minutes. A single fade will singlehandedly own all the elect-rts, and marines are screwed without income. Sometimes, there are even gorge gangs that plop OCs to knock down these RTs within the 1st minute.
It takes nearly 4 minutes for an elect-rt to turn a profit, and fades negate that easily.
The naked-rt route doesn't work well either, since it only takes 1-2 dedicated skulk patrollers to put an end to your RTs. Marines can patrol yes, but if you're trying to siege a hive or clear a place out, patrolling tends to be neglected. So, this way is a big no-no too.
Turtling is obviously a deathtrap, given the speed the 2nd hive is upped, and the 3-4 rts that are built.
Lerk sporing totally prevents marines from holding any outpost for long, negates L1 armour, screws up marines and makes them easy meat. They also counter shotguns.
Fades make short work of marines, since the range is negated. At hive 2, skulks with leap can charge into the marine ranks, and easily take out even upgraded marines.
I'm an experienced comm, and I've tried every style ranging from liberal to conservative. Some games I've gone out aggressively, very aggressively, but the game is lost because of a single failed attack. Whereas the kharaa have it easy and can afford multiple failures, marines need to be on the ball every single step of the way. There is no room for failure for marines if both teams are good.
Marines have roughly a -3- minute window of dominance at the start, then they have to start defending, or sneak to attack, else be torn apart by fades and lerks.
Then, by the 5 minute mark, if they haven't begun to take down a hive, any elect-rts will be dying from fades, if not earlier from gorges. Naked rts will be gone a long time ago.
By 8 minutes, the marines will be down to pretty much their own base and whatever tech they managed to obtain. If they haven't knocked out enough aliens rts and a hive by then, it's gg.
A single fade can rape marines and elect RTs.
A single skulk can rape RTs and marines if ambushed.
A single lerk can turn marines into pulp.
Marines take teamwork to win, which is right. They are strong, very strong, if they keep the targets at range. Fade blink, lerk spores, hive2 skulkleap negates all that. Armour or no armour. Until HA or jets are achieved (which takes a damn long time and loads of res), marines are easy prey.
Some of these imbalances are being fixed in 3.0.
The lerk is now killable with the new hitbox.
The lerkbite, which i consider a NERF, gives marines a chance to kill the lerk without dying in 5 lerk spikes (a single skulk bite reduces marine to 75hp and 0 armour).
The fade costs 60 res. (although he ends up useless in late game if marines can tech up).
I always thought more marine starting res would do much more than changing 101 variables but that's just me. At any rate, barring balance changes aside, does anyone have any viable tactics that I have not thought of.
Keep in mind the players I'm with are all experienced. Shotgun rushes tend to be noticed the moment it leaves base due to parasite. Siege attempts are usually stopped by a lerk or a fade. PG attack bases end up being spawn camped etc etc. And in case you don't realise it, whatever strat that must work has to work before the 8 minute mark, and must be easily carried out before the 3 minute mark.
Thanks.
Comments
don't elec rt's so you can get fast upgrades.
dont put down turrets in stupid places.
always put pressure on their hives and res. Remember, their res towers are "naked" too.
Drop shotties for the pesky fades, if your rines are truly expericenced, they should take out a fade or two. Also minestacks do really well at killin' fades.
Also, lerks usually don't do much damage. Yes, they do annoy the marines but 2 good shotgun shots would take one out easy.
The kharaa can afford multiple failures? Where'd you come up with that idea?
I've actually been noticing rines are winning a lot more lately.. Maybe it's just the servers i play on?
Hope this helps. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
offensive is the key to defence <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
tech up when ur member go distract them, medding them when necessary
oh ya, u may wan to try this method, when a hive is building at 4th mins+, u should have lvl 1 armour, get ur marine back to base and give shotty and rush the nearest hive near ur base.
either, good marines. I've come to realize how easy marines truly are. You just hold down a mouse button and follow a target. It's very simple really. good marines will own anything
or
Kill the alien res nodes. Without res, you won't see fades, and of course won't see onos. Also by taking out their nodes, your nodes won't be hit either, elec or not
Of course, it works better if you have both.
The main thing is the RTs. If you can get the RTs; the aliens are just screwed. Be sure to <b>GIVE WAYPOINTS</b>. Not everybody on your team has their speakers turned way up or is wearing headphones; they can't always hear you over the voice thing. Sometimes when they do hear you, they don't know what the hell you mean. If you say "take down the RT at overlook" and they are not familiar with that map, that means absolutely nothing to them.
if marine is coordinated and evenly matched(NO NEWBIE PLS), marine would have the advantage <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
A good skulk can take out multi SG rines at lvl0 armour, given a good ambush postion. A good fade can OWN as many SG rines you can throw at it, it doesn't even need a good jumpoff position. Not to mention multiple lerks softening up rines at MS... this is of course a DC first situation. You're screwed with a MC first situation... lerks never stop sporing, silenced skulk/fade, cel skulks... fun stuff.
If you have 2 evenly matched teams, 50%+ of the time, aliens win.
Aliens are the ones that get their butt kicked much more than the marines.
About pressuring> If even 1 skulk ignores marine pressure and goes after res nodes, marines are screwed. Marines kill res nodes, aliens still have a reserve. Aliens kill res nodes, marines have low reserve, since they need to spend to counter the dreaded alien midgame.
If the RTs are electrified, the fade can clean up the marine attack, then take out a res node, which still screws marines.
As to why I say kharaa can afford failures, is this. Viable early marine attacks are shotguns, or sieges. That's 30 res for shotties, and minimum 60 res for a siege. Marines or sieges can't run very fast, so if you fail, that's a lot of res down the drain at the start.
A good fade will attack, if its chased away, it will heal. Then round 2. And 3. Or suicide skulks, which works very well against barely moving or not moving targets. If the fade is good, it shouldn't die, and even if it does, usually another player can fade.
Shotgun hunting packs are indeed great for fade killing, and a nice bonus is rt, chamber and hive killing. But honestly, with lerks, parasite and ambushing skulks, those are very dead shotgunners. After the threat is cleared away, the fade can be the king once again.
It takes less kharaa players to have the same effect than a greater number of marine players. The equiliser is tech, but tech=res, and marines=poor res flow.
It may seem that I'm pessimistic or just plain not sure what to do, but I'm not. I've just commed a few games, and granted the caliber of the aliens weren't as good as they were last night. Victories basically went 2 ways. One was fast shotgun/siege style attacks. These succeeded on the first attempt. Had they failed, fades and bilebomb would have decided the game. The other was teching up, saving up, then going for broke with a HA or jet/sg train. It's basically a 1-shot affair again.
For those who don't know, the current 2.0x lerk can fly into the ceiling, which blocks the entire hitbox. Basically, it's invulnerable. That's why it's damn hard to kill.
To the people who responded : Some of you said "dont elect".Excuse me,the original poster explained that not electrifying rts means you lose them.Some of you said "elect".The original poster explained fades make electrified rts dissapear.Yet,you still went ahead and suggested those strategies.Did you guys read?
In my experience, ever since 2.01, the game is the most balanced it has ever been.
Also, I think comms panic and give up hope early on if they see a fade. I never give up hope, i just give a sg to my best rine, make him go hunt the fade down, and make sure when he meets up with the fade, give medspam and most of the time the fade runs away, or dies.
Also, you say that a fade rapes a elecnode. Well actually it takes a good while for the fade to kill the node, and if the fade is going to do it as quickly as possible, he is going to be at low hp for parts of it. Typically, you can send rines to the node once it starts going down. And they go and scare the fade away. and by that time you have sgs going after the fade.
Lerks are no problem as long as you give med spam.
I would say that med spam is the best thing in NS for rine. A good medding comm can make a rine unkillable, especially with sg. You wouldn't believe the amount of aliens that get mad at my med spam when I comm. (its perfectly legal in cal)
But overall, SG should be the best thing. And good aiming rines can hold key spots on maps, no matter the alien. especially since you should have lvl1 armor, and lvl2 lmg by the time fades come anyway.
Try playing on Hamptons, most of the time, good rines are there.
Personally, I always go for upgrades as comm; I'd rather have everyone with weapons 3 and armour 1 than have w1 a1 and a few shotties.
Personally, I always go for upgrades as comm; I'd rather have everyone with weapons 3 and armour 1 than have w1 a1 and a few shotties. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends on server size; in a 6v6 or smaller, the cost of upgrading compared to the cost of giving out shotties are pretty much even. In larger games, upgrades are much more cost effective.
What I don't understand is commanders that go weapons 1 before armor 1 ... armor one makes marines take 3 bites instead of two to go down, which means you live 1.5 seconds instead of 0.75 seconds vs a skulk. That's a 100% more firepower delivered .. far better than a measly 10%...
Even if he doesnt hear them coming,he will have more than ample time to blink away.
The entire point of lerks sproing your marines is to force you to med-spam.When you med-spam you get less res to spend on upgrades.And lerks who fly near the ceiling might as well have godmode enabled on them.Theres just no point trying to shoot them when they are doing it.
<span style='color:white'>Defending the game is not an excuse for flaming.</span>
Neither team is "unbalanced." It depends on server size, the general skill of the server...and the Marine comm. NS is a wildly variable game. You can't just take one situation and say "this is unbalanced." In the big picture both teams are quite balanced, but it really depends on what's going on during the game you're playing that determines who is victorious.
by 4th mins+, both team have a fade and hive up
by 6 mins, another fade come up, hive up
by 8 mins, onos appear
marine have like 2/2. hoho, rush base wif fade, onos, 10 mins plus end game.
really wish to see marine balanced in TOURNAMENT
by 4th mins+, both team have a fade and hive up
by 6 mins, another fade come up, hive up
by 8 mins, onos appear
marine have like 2/2. hoho, rush base wif fade, onos, 10 mins plus end game.
really wish to see marine balanced in TOURNAMENT <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would help if you guys stopped playing 6 vs 6 that give aliens fast res and marines less manpower.
I mean,its simple maths.Aliens can easily get 4,maybe 5 rts by 2 minutes in clan matches with 6 vs 6.What does that mean?
It means aliens are getting 1 res almost 5 seconds....by 2 minutes.By 3 minutes max,3 DCs would have appeared.A little after that,the first fade.
By 4 minutes i would be very surprised if marines could even take and hold 2 rts excluding marine start...especially with the fade.
It will take a little over 4 minutes for the aliens who gorged at start,to gain back 50 res to fade.Im not even factoring in RFK which will eliminate at least 30 seconds off the time.
By 8 minutes,i would be very surprised if the marines could even get anywhere close to a RT without being butchered.By 8 minutes,the aliens could potentially have 5 fades up.
Simple maths.5 fades vs 5 marines by 8 minutes.Without factoring in RFK.
I just do not see how aliens could possibly lose in a clanmatch in 6 vs 6....unless the skill levels are incredibly far apart.
flayra said one.. we follow his order
:X
I'd also point out that the marines have a by far more efficient system for their resource management which means that their two RTs can equal the aliens.
4 min hive plus 8 min onos = gg rines
That depends. Shotties are actually decent vs lerk at long range, mostly because the spread is tighter than it was before.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For those who don't know, the current 2.0x lerk can fly into the ceiling, which blocks the entire hitbox. Basically, it's invulnerable. That's why it's damn hard to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh. Sounds like BS, since I've killed many lerks that were, as you said, "into the ceiling" <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
P.S. make sure to take 2 of your guys to the other two hives the some gorg doesn't start building a hive
I'd also point out that the marines have a by far more efficient system for their resource management which means that their two RTs can equal the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes simple maths isnt the full picture,but the maths certaintly favour the aliens.
Oh lets try this btw.Marines get 2 rts,while aliens get 4(in total) on a 6 vs 6.
All sit and see who techs up faster.
-if you think that you'll kill all the elec-rts, do you think the marines will stand looking at you?
-they will be owning some rt of your's at the same time or even worse...taking over some hives.
-i think both races are balanced enoguh...all you need is good players(good com for marines).
-used to put some defense for every rt i get(in marines) i'll drop tf at every rt so i'll never lose it.but that doesn't happen anymore...