Israel Pulling Out?
MonsieurEvil
Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">This just in...</div> <a href='http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=425276§ion=news' target='_blank'>http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticl...76§ion=news</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sharon vows steps if peace plan fails
Thu 18 December, 2003 18:35
HERZLIYA, Israel (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said in a major policy address that Israel will take unilateral steps for separation from the Palestinians if a U.S.-backed peace plan fails.
Sharon said on Thursday the "road map" was the best path to peace, but Israel would act in months if the Palestinians did not follow it.
He said that a "separation plan" would involve the redeployment of Israeli forces and changing the distribution of settlements to reduce the number of Israelis near centres of Palestinian population.
"If within a number of months the Palestinians will continue not carrying out their part of the road map, then Israel will initiate a unilateral security measure of separation," Sharon said.
He said any measures would be coordinated with the United States, Israel's main ally<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/transcripts/2003/dec/031217.gradstein.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/transcript....gradstein.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert dropped a political bombshell earlier this month when he called for Israel to take unilateral steps, including a pullback from some Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. Yesterday in a speech at a national security conference, Olmert went even further, saying he expects dozens of settlements and tens of thousands of settlers will have to be uprooted. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is tomorrow scheduled to give a speech at the same conference outlining his vision of unilateral steps.
Olmert, one of the young prices in the Likud and clearly angling for Sharon's job, explains his change of heart.
Deputy Prime Minister EHUD OLMERT (Israel): Reality brought me to this. I look at the territories and I see that the ever-growing number of Palestinians is creating a major threat to the majority of the Jewish people and the Jewish nature of the state of Israel.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow! Pretty unprecendented stuff. This (almost) amounts to the creation of a separate palestinian state. Well, if they got out of the west bank entirely, it would - the palestinian's often follow the 'all or nothing, cut off your nose to spite your face' approach to diplomacy. What do you think will come of this, and what would happen in the area if the Israelis gave back all that territory? Would we see peace, or simply a shifting of demands from 'give us back Gaza' to 'give us back all the other Israeli land ceded by the Balfour Agreement'? My opinion has always been that arab governments and the palestinian leadership do not want that conflict to be resolved - it gives them a bogieman that they can direct their people's anger against instead of allowing them to look at their own corrupt dictatorships and monarchies. But that's just my opinion, what's yours?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sharon vows steps if peace plan fails
Thu 18 December, 2003 18:35
HERZLIYA, Israel (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said in a major policy address that Israel will take unilateral steps for separation from the Palestinians if a U.S.-backed peace plan fails.
Sharon said on Thursday the "road map" was the best path to peace, but Israel would act in months if the Palestinians did not follow it.
He said that a "separation plan" would involve the redeployment of Israeli forces and changing the distribution of settlements to reduce the number of Israelis near centres of Palestinian population.
"If within a number of months the Palestinians will continue not carrying out their part of the road map, then Israel will initiate a unilateral security measure of separation," Sharon said.
He said any measures would be coordinated with the United States, Israel's main ally<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/transcripts/2003/dec/031217.gradstein.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/transcript....gradstein.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert dropped a political bombshell earlier this month when he called for Israel to take unilateral steps, including a pullback from some Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. Yesterday in a speech at a national security conference, Olmert went even further, saying he expects dozens of settlements and tens of thousands of settlers will have to be uprooted. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is tomorrow scheduled to give a speech at the same conference outlining his vision of unilateral steps.
Olmert, one of the young prices in the Likud and clearly angling for Sharon's job, explains his change of heart.
Deputy Prime Minister EHUD OLMERT (Israel): Reality brought me to this. I look at the territories and I see that the ever-growing number of Palestinians is creating a major threat to the majority of the Jewish people and the Jewish nature of the state of Israel.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow! Pretty unprecendented stuff. This (almost) amounts to the creation of a separate palestinian state. Well, if they got out of the west bank entirely, it would - the palestinian's often follow the 'all or nothing, cut off your nose to spite your face' approach to diplomacy. What do you think will come of this, and what would happen in the area if the Israelis gave back all that territory? Would we see peace, or simply a shifting of demands from 'give us back Gaza' to 'give us back all the other Israeli land ceded by the Balfour Agreement'? My opinion has always been that arab governments and the palestinian leadership do not want that conflict to be resolved - it gives them a bogieman that they can direct their people's anger against instead of allowing them to look at their own corrupt dictatorships and monarchies. But that's just my opinion, what's yours?
Comments
Well, if you are right then Israel at least has a good reason to smack them Plaestinians. That would make the Israels more of the 'good guys'. Though you got a point there that through all times, people have needed scapegoats to blame everything on them. Middle Ages witchhunts, USSR cleanings, Nazi reign and Jews, USA communist/terrorist witchhunts etc. The list goes on and it has probably happened in every country.
Anyway, this is ofcourse a very good thing. I hope it all goes well like it's supposed to. One just has to wonder why they didn't do this earlier?
Because of these statements by Sharon, it seems to me they don't beleive the Palestinians will be able to follow the roadmap. This could also, however, show the Palestinians what Israel is willing to do to come to some sort of peace. I'm here thinking that if the Palestinians continue to negotiate some form of peace with Israel, they'd be able to get all the land that Israel is willing to give up should the roadmap fail.... Perhaps even more.
Israel has never wanted the Palestinians to return, because they would become the majority in their country. Instead, they have refused the right to return, and then committed more human rights injustices by segregating Palestinians within their borders.
The situation has become so bad, that the hate between Palestinians and Jews in the region will never be healed. A real trajedy, is all I can describe it as.
I'm unclear on how it's not about land. It might be injustice, but it's injustice <i>about land</i>. If Gaza and the West Bank were given back to the palestinians and they had their own government, laws, religions, etc. and they became a sovereign state of Palestine, what's left to argue over?
Its also part of the Universal Declairation of Human Rights, which was one of the 3 post-WWII pillars upon which the modern world was established.
Now, everyone knows about these methods, was it a conscious choice of Arrafat and Co. to go down the hard road instead? Their way almost never works, but it surely kept them in power for decades...
thats a good point! (every powerful man looks out for their own **** first)
but I think that peaceful protest is very risky, it takes years to turn world favour, maybe even decades, and even then, theres no guarantee anything will happen (especially when the other side is backed by the self proclaimed most powerful nation on earth).
it would probably work in the long run (how long is anybodies guess) but what to do about the people who are homeless today?
Peaceful protest villainizes your opponent in a way that nothng else can. The entire world will turn in your favor and put pressure on the people you're protesting. It's almost irresistable; if the entire earth said 'My god, these harmless palestinians are protesting peacefully and getting hit with sticks and shot at. These Israelis are monsters - let's have a complete trade embargo and brand them an outlaw nation until they cave under the pressure!'
It worked in South Africa only a few years ago, to add to my list of things palestinian leaders never noticed in the newspapers.
Israel has always been in conflict with it's neighbours and vice versa (Canaan?, Philistines? Phoenecians? Babylonians? Egyptians? Not sure on middle eastern history I was never versed in it anymore then what I've read in the bible, and no, I am not a religious person).
Even if this singular conflict is resolved, they will find something else to wrangle over, such as compensation from israel for atrocities or continued suicide bombings to get any land the israelies didnt relinquish.
Of course thats my opinion. I could be dearly wrong and the Israelies and Palestinians could live in peace for ever and ever and I hope I am dearly wrong.
Does anyone really believe that if Isreal gives back to the lands obtained after the partition by the U.N. that the Palestinians will be satisified? Nothing short of the destruction of Isreal will make the Arabs happy. Don't believe me, take a look at <a href='http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html' target='_blank'>this</a>.
Here is another source on the history of Isreal. <a href='http://www.adl.org/ISRAEL/Record/conflicts.asp' target='_blank'>History</a>.
Yes, it is the Anti-Defamtion League, which is primarily a Jewish group.
The problem is, the Palestinians are fed unbelieveable amounts of propaganda, and have to access to the other sides story.
Am I the only one who interprets this as moving the centers of Pal. population, not the Israeli settlements? They'll decrease the numbers of israelis living near palestinians by eliminating the palestinians. I would not expect less from Sharon.
And about peaceful protest, I'm equally bewildered as to why nothing has been done yet. But I think it has to do something with the Praetorian nature of palestinian officials. If they don't deliver as soon as they rise to power, out they go. And peaceful protest isn't something you can do right off the bat... so there.
Yes it did indeed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Although things came dangerously close to a civil-war.
Thats interesting <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> South Africans do make good stuff... except cheap pens <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The palestinians and surrounding countries want the destruction of israel. The land is what they get afterwards. So yeah, it is about the land- all of it.
Even before israel occupied the debated locations, the palestinians and surrounding countries were hostile to israel. It's not about giving back the newly occupied land, because they were fighting before the land was occupied. The hostility is deeper.
The only thing that will satisfy them is the destruction, or at least the removal, of israel.
Here are just a few quotes from 1967
Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nasser:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Iraqi President (at the time) Rahman Aref:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What israel is doing now is to be expected.
Remember when they put up the big fence a few months ago? Seperation is what they were trying to do- then america said no, don't do that, lets try for more peace negotiations. So they stopped. But they're fed up (I would be too, long ago). So, if the latest peace talks don't work, they're just going to reorganize so that there is more space between the palestinians and israelis. They'll probably build another fence or wall too, to make it easier to guard against insurgents. (<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->redeployment of Israeli forces and changing the distribution of settlements to reduce the number of Israelis near centres of Palestinian population.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->) kinda describes this action.
The suicide bombings and attacks won't stop. The extremists are not looking for peace and do not, to me, represent the palestinian people. They give a bad name to them all. So what now? Israel has a wall, seperation, and isolation, but the attacks continue?
I think that a withdrawl would kill a lot of the support for the various terrorist groups, especially in the field of recruitment. It's harder to whip up a frenzy of anger against Israel if Israel has retreated and isn't building armed settlements in the middle of Palestinian cities any more. Some groups will still want to attack israel, no question there, but I think there will be a defenite decrease in attacks and numbers of people willing to join such causes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The palestinians and surrounding countries want the destruction of israel. The land is what they get afterwards. So yeah, it is about the land- all of it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps. For all their blustering a rhetoric, the facts speak for themselves: no invasion of Israel has succeeded, most of the Arab nations these days dislike one another too much to form a union against Israel, and now that Israel has nukes any potential invasion is just pointless: it can never succeed. So like Monse says, Israel will continue to be used as a scapegoat, with Arabic leaders saying "It's all Israel's fault that you people are all poor and uneducated and by the way please don't take notice of our BMWs and palaces, because as you can see from scientific studies these luxuries are essential to the health and well-being of despotic leaders. I personally do not like them.", but in terms of actually attacking Israel, that's in the past.
I'm quite interested in seeing how this pans out. It could be a way to break the cycle of violence and support for extreamists on both sides (yes, there are extreamist Jews as well, just like there are Palistinians that want peace).
Israel has never wanted the Palestinians to return, because they would become the majority in their country. Instead, they have refused the right to return, and then committed more human rights injustices by segregating Palestinians within their borders.
The situation has become so bad, that the hate between Palestinians and Jews in the region will never be healed. A real trajedy, is all I can describe it as. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I understand it, the Israeli's wanted the Palestinians to return after the 1948 war, and they refused. Their leaders let them rot in camps to keep the hate alive. Their "Muslim brothers" in the surrounding countries did nothing to help them - the Palestinians were serving their purpose as homeless whiners to the UN and the world. If the situation has changed between now and then with regards to the Israeli's wishing the Palestinians to return, then I say tough luck Palestinians.
They had their chance to return, and instead they sulked in camps and sent fedayeen to attack Israel. They missed the boat, frankly.
The Arab leaders sacraficed innocent Palestinians in the name of hate against the "zionists". It is probably one of the most terrible examples of tragedy in human history. Only a change of attitude and ideology on the part of the Palestinian people and their leadership will bring peace to that region. I pray for that day to come for the sake of Arab and Jew.
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/p1.093002.herzl.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...3002.herzl.html</a>
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/p-two.10-01-02.mandate.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...02.mandate.html</a>
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...n-20021002.html</a>
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/6day-p4.100302.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...-p4.100302.html</a>
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/10042002-friday_yom.kippur.war.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...kippur.war.html</a>
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/num.6-from_intifada-2002-10-07.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...2002-10-07.html</a>
<a href='http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/7th-part.100802.2_nd-intifada.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/h...d-intifada.html</a>
NOTE: you can also listen to audio versions of these transcripts, if you are unfortunate enough to use Real Player. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since I am the first to respond to this... The answer to your question is a resounding "Yes".
Come back to reality please.
<a href='http://www.fff.org/comment/com0305o.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.fff.org/comment/com0305o.asp</a>
Claims the Arab nations wouldn't allow the Palestinian refugees to return at first to use them as a political tool. The site then goes on to condemn the current Israeli stance forbiding return.
<a href='http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm</a>
This site gives a detailed account of most of the Israeli history in the mideast dating back to the Roman era. I didn't even see mention of a Palestinian refusal in it.
<a href='http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1741.shtml' target='_blank'>http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1741.shtml</a>
Now, this one is the most interesting. It hints at a Palestinian refusal years ago but never actually says it. Also, it cites a recent pole of Palestinians where only 10% want the Right of Return now. I find that pole interesting as a lot of people make it out to seem like the majority of Palestinians are wanting the Right of Return.
I am not sayying one way or another about if the Palestinians denied the Right of Return before because I couldn't find a definitive source about it. If anyone has one I would love to see it.
Just curious Jamil, putting aside Isreal, what do you think about the actions of groups like the PLO and hezzbullah(sp?) etc?
I don't know enough about the PLO to comment on it.
Regardless, you say you support terrorism. Here is how I define a terrorist or a terrorist group. A group of petty criminals who strike undefended targets because they are too weak and pathetic to take on a real fight.
They are too stupid and ignorant to solve disputes in a civil manner, so they pick up their ak-47's and blow away civilians at wedding parties.
Seriously Jamil, I can't believe you would in anyway defend the actions of a terrorist organization. The PLO IS a terrorist organization as well. I am absolutely shocked and dissapointed by what you said.
Am I wrong here, or is this just insane???
Regardless, you say you support terrorism. Here is how I define a terrorist or a terrorist group. A group of petty criminals who strike undefended targets because they are too weak and pathetic to take on a real fight.
They are too stupid and ignorant to solve disputes in a civil manner, so they pick up their ak-47's and blow away civilians at wedding parties.
Seriously Jamil, I can't believe you would in anyway defend the actions of a terrorist organization. The PLO IS a terrorist organization as well. I am absolutely shocked and dissapointed by what you said.
Am I wrong here, or is this just insane??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa whoa whoa, I'm finding myself disagreeing with Jamil on heaps of things, but he said "I do not support terrorism against non-combatants". That means he doesnt support their actions when they blow up Israeli civilians. He acknowledges that they do some good, but condemns (very softly albeit) the attacking of civilians.
I remember seeing this story on the news once.
Essentially, this Palestinian women was saying that she is having as many children as she can so that they can grow up and blow themeselves up. Her husband and herself would train these children from birth just to blow themeselves up. I am pretty sure I vomited after seeing this. Hezzbollah probably gave them some nice cash for their children's "sacrafice". Maybe $500 a pop. Yup, they help needy families alright.
supporting terrorism even against military targets
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even going by your own definition of terrorism, there is no such thing as <i>terrorism against military targets</i>...
Yes...
Worked brilliantly in Tianmen Square.