Commanding
Johny_Cage
Join Date: 2003-02-06 Member: 13191Members
Join Date: 2003-02-06 Member: 13191Members
Okay first off, I am not the best comm, I lose and win and always learn. I am not looking for fame, I am not trying to impress anyone, I am not looking for flames. I am just trying to share* what I've learned about commanding. The following best represents public server matches not* clan play. The skill level of the players should be average and below. There are hundreds of strategies, hundreds of servers, thousands of players, everyone plays however they like, and do whatever they can to win. This post is about how I comm. You can ask questions about what I've written only. Dont flame about spelling errors etc. Dont ask "what if", dont say "you're a noob", dont say you dont like it, or "you suck", or anything bad please. Also please dont post other strategies, you can just make your own thread.
First as a comm I start with 1 ip, a tf and 2 turrets (covering 3 sides of the tf against the wall, and the ip).
I dont electrify the tf to cover the ips (instead of turrets) because it costs 10 more res than 2 turrets, it lets aliens run around in marine start and camp the ips, overall invites the entire alien team in marine base, makes the marine base a big pile of crap since the electricity has to cover all other structures creating confusion among rine ranks, turrets scare aliens away and are just as much as effective of defending base.
I immediately tell people to spread out and go for res. Believe it or not, if aliens are not complete noobs, they are going to report marine movement. As in if an alien sees a marine near a rt or whatever, he's gonna tell his team that and the aliens, either for kills or team spirit are going to focus on whatever the guy reported. Thus if I had my whole team in one place ( some may be noobs ) that is bound to be a slaughter. So having people spread out gives me a chance to sneak up rts, electrify ( I have enough res from the start ), prevent slaughters ( res for aliens) and a spawn line on my starting ip.
Then I try to get as many rts as possible and soon I either find we control most of the map or we are starting to lose ground. If our advance is stopped I drop a second ip, armory, arms lab and start upgrading.
If you think ammo is a problem you're wrong. If my marines get slaughtered without killing anything then I dont think they need more ammo. If they do kill, I always drop them meds and ammo. Good players are rewarded just like aliens get res. No armory at the start of the game also means more res for rts, no humping, and I also get to know right off the bat who is noob and who isnt ( noobs start whining for armory ).
Also if I find I control 6 res on the map and have lvl1 ups I usually tell everyone on my team to come back to base or kill themselves wherever they would be. I drop them all shottys and thats game.
Most of the time I dont take a hive. I have lost many games because of this but have won more for the same reason. The motive behind it is, hives cost res and people to defend. A hive takes a considerable amount of res consisting in a tf, turrets, pg, and people to defend. What happens most often in a game is marines take a hive, secure it and think they have a chance in winning. In reality I think marines with a hive but no res are as good as dead. Aliens obviously keep pressuring the last hive and it is very hard to beat the alien team who has control of the entire map -- lots of rts, means lots of onos, fades, lerk, o tower wol's.
In a game I usually just take the rt in a certain hive and move on. I spend the res on upgrades and rts.
I usually reconsider if we can take two hives. If the alien's starting hive is in a corner of the map, get the hive closest to the alien hive first. You can take over the hive furthest from the alien starting hive after since alien backup takes alot longer to get there. If you get two hives and aliens have d towers for first hive, the onos will be slow without movement, and shottys will kill it easily. If they have any other tower, onos are gonna fall like nothing against upgraded marines.
Also be careful though, and dont think that if you have two hives you've won the game. If you dont have at least 4 rts you will not be able to win. 2 hives take alot more res to defend if you dont have a choke point (discussed below) since the entire alien team is just pouring in (they dont have anything better to do than to get a second hive).
Also I'd like to say a few things about choke points. Probably the* most important part of marine strat are choke points.
A choke point doesnt necessarily mean you have to build something in a important spot and you shouldnt confuse it with taking double res spots on the map. What I understand by choke points is a front. A place where you pressure the alien team and engage them in combat for the purpose of not gaining ground but for keeping them busy. Why would you want to waste manpower and res to keep the aliens busy with no motive to advance ? Pressuring the alien team to defend a spot gives you the chance to take control of everything behind that point. It is a concept a bit hard to understand, hard to master and probably the most annoying thing when you're on alien team.
Its like the front line in a war. That is where everyone is dying but each team controls everything behind their front. If you create a choke point at key places of the map you can control most of it. When you're on alien team you see the marine team making a choke point and you just know they are now taking over all the rts on the map but if the marines are pressuring your hive and the aliens are losing ground, then you dont have a choice and you have to try to save your hive before you can destroy the marines rts.
The choke points range from map to map and game to game but are critical to a successful marine game.
An example would be processing on ns_hera. If aliens have either data core or archiving you can go through cargo to top of processing. Siege double, move to processing and pressure data core (first or second hive). This will give you proc, cargo, maint and vent rts, and holoroom alien rts down.
Also you have to be aware that hitting the aliens head on is not the way to win a game. A good comm has to be aware of alien upgrades especially in the beginning of the game. If the aliens have defence towers than I usually consider that as an offensive alien strat. That means the aliens have to* advance. Defence towers give aliens the ability to play more individually, since they can each take head on marines wondering around. It is best* not to play a defensive game as marines now. Since aliens are playing offensively and you are defending, only one team can win -- aliens. Sneak up any res you can, gather most of your team and send them to make a choke point.
If the aliens team build sensory, you should* play defensively since they are as well. What I mean by this is you cant attack what you cant see. Get upgrades as soon as possible, make a choke point, block the aliens from the rest of the map, take all the res you can (cloaking doesnt really help against electrified res) and the game is yours. Dont send your marines attacking cloaked stuff without upgrades and scans.
Always be aware of your marines position, warn them of incoming and hiding aliens, and always be open minded to opportunities that may arise.
A small tip is that when you get marines in a hive or double node (early game, no pg), I usually drop the rt(s) first then (if I want) secure it tf and turrets. Some comms drop tf and turrets first. I think if the marines cant hold it for a few seconds longer, turrets arent gonna help them that much and if I get the rts first, I have more res to build the tf and turrets than doing tf, turrets than rts.
Uh I'm probably going to add some more stuff later. Dont criticize me because I elec the rts, I know... I've played on good server too and if your marines are good enough they can pressure the aliens enough and rebuild rts fast enough that you dont have to electrify.
First as a comm I start with 1 ip, a tf and 2 turrets (covering 3 sides of the tf against the wall, and the ip).
I dont electrify the tf to cover the ips (instead of turrets) because it costs 10 more res than 2 turrets, it lets aliens run around in marine start and camp the ips, overall invites the entire alien team in marine base, makes the marine base a big pile of crap since the electricity has to cover all other structures creating confusion among rine ranks, turrets scare aliens away and are just as much as effective of defending base.
I immediately tell people to spread out and go for res. Believe it or not, if aliens are not complete noobs, they are going to report marine movement. As in if an alien sees a marine near a rt or whatever, he's gonna tell his team that and the aliens, either for kills or team spirit are going to focus on whatever the guy reported. Thus if I had my whole team in one place ( some may be noobs ) that is bound to be a slaughter. So having people spread out gives me a chance to sneak up rts, electrify ( I have enough res from the start ), prevent slaughters ( res for aliens) and a spawn line on my starting ip.
Then I try to get as many rts as possible and soon I either find we control most of the map or we are starting to lose ground. If our advance is stopped I drop a second ip, armory, arms lab and start upgrading.
If you think ammo is a problem you're wrong. If my marines get slaughtered without killing anything then I dont think they need more ammo. If they do kill, I always drop them meds and ammo. Good players are rewarded just like aliens get res. No armory at the start of the game also means more res for rts, no humping, and I also get to know right off the bat who is noob and who isnt ( noobs start whining for armory ).
Also if I find I control 6 res on the map and have lvl1 ups I usually tell everyone on my team to come back to base or kill themselves wherever they would be. I drop them all shottys and thats game.
Most of the time I dont take a hive. I have lost many games because of this but have won more for the same reason. The motive behind it is, hives cost res and people to defend. A hive takes a considerable amount of res consisting in a tf, turrets, pg, and people to defend. What happens most often in a game is marines take a hive, secure it and think they have a chance in winning. In reality I think marines with a hive but no res are as good as dead. Aliens obviously keep pressuring the last hive and it is very hard to beat the alien team who has control of the entire map -- lots of rts, means lots of onos, fades, lerk, o tower wol's.
In a game I usually just take the rt in a certain hive and move on. I spend the res on upgrades and rts.
I usually reconsider if we can take two hives. If the alien's starting hive is in a corner of the map, get the hive closest to the alien hive first. You can take over the hive furthest from the alien starting hive after since alien backup takes alot longer to get there. If you get two hives and aliens have d towers for first hive, the onos will be slow without movement, and shottys will kill it easily. If they have any other tower, onos are gonna fall like nothing against upgraded marines.
Also be careful though, and dont think that if you have two hives you've won the game. If you dont have at least 4 rts you will not be able to win. 2 hives take alot more res to defend if you dont have a choke point (discussed below) since the entire alien team is just pouring in (they dont have anything better to do than to get a second hive).
Also I'd like to say a few things about choke points. Probably the* most important part of marine strat are choke points.
A choke point doesnt necessarily mean you have to build something in a important spot and you shouldnt confuse it with taking double res spots on the map. What I understand by choke points is a front. A place where you pressure the alien team and engage them in combat for the purpose of not gaining ground but for keeping them busy. Why would you want to waste manpower and res to keep the aliens busy with no motive to advance ? Pressuring the alien team to defend a spot gives you the chance to take control of everything behind that point. It is a concept a bit hard to understand, hard to master and probably the most annoying thing when you're on alien team.
Its like the front line in a war. That is where everyone is dying but each team controls everything behind their front. If you create a choke point at key places of the map you can control most of it. When you're on alien team you see the marine team making a choke point and you just know they are now taking over all the rts on the map but if the marines are pressuring your hive and the aliens are losing ground, then you dont have a choice and you have to try to save your hive before you can destroy the marines rts.
The choke points range from map to map and game to game but are critical to a successful marine game.
An example would be processing on ns_hera. If aliens have either data core or archiving you can go through cargo to top of processing. Siege double, move to processing and pressure data core (first or second hive). This will give you proc, cargo, maint and vent rts, and holoroom alien rts down.
Also you have to be aware that hitting the aliens head on is not the way to win a game. A good comm has to be aware of alien upgrades especially in the beginning of the game. If the aliens have defence towers than I usually consider that as an offensive alien strat. That means the aliens have to* advance. Defence towers give aliens the ability to play more individually, since they can each take head on marines wondering around. It is best* not to play a defensive game as marines now. Since aliens are playing offensively and you are defending, only one team can win -- aliens. Sneak up any res you can, gather most of your team and send them to make a choke point.
If the aliens team build sensory, you should* play defensively since they are as well. What I mean by this is you cant attack what you cant see. Get upgrades as soon as possible, make a choke point, block the aliens from the rest of the map, take all the res you can (cloaking doesnt really help against electrified res) and the game is yours. Dont send your marines attacking cloaked stuff without upgrades and scans.
Always be aware of your marines position, warn them of incoming and hiding aliens, and always be open minded to opportunities that may arise.
A small tip is that when you get marines in a hive or double node (early game, no pg), I usually drop the rt(s) first then (if I want) secure it tf and turrets. Some comms drop tf and turrets first. I think if the marines cant hold it for a few seconds longer, turrets arent gonna help them that much and if I get the rts first, I have more res to build the tf and turrets than doing tf, turrets than rts.
Uh I'm probably going to add some more stuff later. Dont criticize me because I elec the rts, I know... I've played on good server too and if your marines are good enough they can pressure the aliens enough and rebuild rts fast enough that you dont have to electrify.
Comments
I agree to some extent. However, sending marines out to randomly take res, will sooner or later result in 2 hives and adren/regen fades killing all your res, without a possible counter. Even more so, the aliens will kill marines far more than marines will kill aliens if you dont get uppgrades fast.
3 hives can get up within a few minutes if you allow aliens to have 4 RTs.
Rember: Marines never ever aim as good when it is important.
As for electrifications, I generally electrify hives and RTs close to the enemy hive. I tend to leave the double res unelectrified and indeed, unguarded -- what I do then is if one is under attack I electrify the other. Once the skulk's done with the first the other one's already electrified (and I can just send a marine back later to rebuild the RT)
As for getting everyone to come back to base to pass out shotties, I find that it's a lot faster (and keeps your marines in the field) to drop an armory wherever my group of marines are and then spam shotguns around them there. It's my way of 'rewarding' them for actually having teamwork and staying in a group!
I like the idea of not building the armory to prevent humping, but i think that would require you to have at least 2 ips since your marines are going to die very often... What is the size of teams on the servers you play? About 10 on 10?
What do these choke points look like? Is it just a phasegate with some defences and marines constantly comming out of it? I would think that you have to have a phasegate to quickly send in marines without taking the long walk to the chokepoint. It's a risky tactic since a fade can take down the small outpost you have created by blinking in, slashing on the PG, blinking out.
How and when do you use/give-out welders? I believe that welders are very underused by comms, maybe because few marines use them effectively. A welder costs just 5 rez and one person could save huge amount of structures, especially turrets and RTs, by welding them all. [Even when i tell the comm to drop a welder to weld a red ellectrified RT it takes too much time and is too late. Good people, who can survive for a long time should always have a welder to weld structures and teammates with 100hp and 0 armor. Or have a noob be a proffessional welder to just run around and weld stuff...]
I have rarely seen commanders place armories near "choke points" in the past. [I remember protecting an entrance to a built hive as HA with other 2 HAs and we kept getting low on ammo. In the end we got killed because we ran out of HMG ammo and the comm had other things to do rather than constantly suppliing us wtih ammo. An armory could have easily saved us. Now that i think of it, 3 HAs with welders and 2 HMGs and 1 GL could hold off an area for quite a while... They'll just have to pisition themselves so that an onos wont be able to stomp them.]
Anyway, those are some effective deffensive methods i'd want commanders to use, but you play very offensively. You rely a lot on your marine's skill. I still like to have the comm build a 2nd base near a hive with a PG so that marines could get to an RT under attack quickly. A base will not be destroyed while there is a PG and marines constantly phasing into it. So if you have a well protected phasegate, this gives your marines another quick way to get into a front lines and attack those alien RTs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A small tip is that when you get marines in a hive or double node (early game, no pg), I usually drop the rt(s) first then (if I want) secure it tf and turrets. Some comms drop tf and turrets first. I think if the marines cant hold it for a few seconds longer, turrets arent gonna help them that much and if I get the rts first, I have more res to build the tf and turrets than doing tf, turrets than rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That tip didn't make sense at first, but now i'm starting to get it. You basically wait for the aliens to try getting the area back and if they don't attack for a while or fail attacking, THEN you will build deffences. That would save a lot of rez, which could have been lost due to placing too many turrets and then losing them without getting them built.
I have tried to comment on tactics you have use or to explore in the areas you haven't covered. I didn't try to bring in any of my one strategies... The time i spent reading the post was worth it in the end, thanks.
it's definitely something to take into consideration. that of alien communication and coordination. the more you attack on multiple fronts, the more likely youare to succeed. i mean, everyoone knows how difficult it can be to get aliens grouped and moveing together. doubly so if you are attacking at the same time diff targets.
servers are around 8v8 but it does get to 10 v 10 , and yes people do die, but since my marines spread out right from the start of the game, I get 2 rts up and I can then drop a second ip.
Marines moving out in all directions means a third of them will meet up with a third of the alien team which is rushing straight from their hive to marine start. Another third of aliens are probably dropping rts from the start and the other third are probably spreading out all over the map to come around to marine start from other direction, which means they will meet with my other marines but because there's few aliens there, they are not a threat and they will camp around corners etc. The marines that meet up with the alien main rush are going to take a few down, and most are going to die. The respawning guys know who's coming, can take positions and the main alien rush is now useless since the aliens are not going to regroup.
I dont know if you got any of that, kinda hard to explain the dynamics of the game.
Choke points must not be outposts necessarily. An outpost means you are defending something, but there is nothing to defend as i sayd in my first post, you must be offensive. A choke point can be for example 4 marines camping out a main corridor, blocking the aliens from the rest of the map, moving towards their hive, and killing all rts on the way. A pg and an outpost should be behind a choke point. On hera you can make a pg in cargo, tf ,turrets, and siege double and you can send your men into processing to force the aliens to defend data core. Aliens are not attacking your outpost in cargo, and your res on the right side of the map is more protected. The aliens will have to* fight your marines into processing if you threaten to siege data, while you control holoroom with sieges, and you can also take the rts in double while you're fighting the aliens in processing. The key points to this whole thing is that res is rolling in, you can upgrade, you are offensive, you take alien res down, you can push for victory easily.
Also I never focus my entire team in choke points because its not good. You need at least a third of the team sweeping the map behind a choke point, taking down alien rts, building yours and killing any aliens that are wondering around. Also these people are useful to attack aliens on another part of the map. If a choke point is keeping the aliens busy you need to attack them somewhere else. You will see that if you threaten a hive for too long, the aliens are* going to start coordinating themselves on that particular point and you will lose ground and fast. Hit them hard someplace else to spread out their forces and keep the alien team unorganized. As an alien if I go attack a marine and I die, chances are im going to go after that **** again when I respawn. This is how you keep aliens off where your real interest is at.
I only give out welders if I need to open a door like cargo, or something like a pg or a tf needs welding. I defenately do not give out welders to alot of people. Giving people welders makes them 'welding happy' and they run around searching for vents to weld or stand in base or outposts welding. This
would mean less people fighting and more people helping defend stuff. Giving good people welders is not such a good idea since they are good players and are better off having their pistol, killing things instead of staying behind and welding stuff.
I usually dont drop an armory in choke points. Since this is a choke point the marines here are under attack constantly. You dont want them to start building an armory and then humping. I just drop them meds and ammo (spam). It keeps them fighting, no distractions.
Cheers
Plugging aside, several things. I start with TF, 2 turrets, armoury, ip. I have everyone cap res, but spread out while i do so. This allows me to get a wealth of info. Usually i know the hive within 30 seconds, and i cap everything on the OTHER side of the map. Once they cap 4+ res, i get obs and phase tech.
Note on hives: As long as i have Rts in front, and a continually moving group of marines, elec and PG is enough. The aliens are guaranteed to chew on anything unelec, even if they intended to go for the hive. The scattered marines usually phase into a hive, then run past all my rts anyway, so is like a patrol.
About this time i start teching. Also, i advance my aroury anywhere from 3-7 minutes, usually right after armour 1. Very often, i will destroy an alien res, capp it, and move on, LETTING them rebuild it. 9 times out of ten, i come back with my gang of marines and discover a gorge, 2 OCs, and a res ready to be pulverized... Amazing how persistent some aliens are.
Also, once i see fades, i end the scattered marines.. nothing good lasts forever. they just feed fades res. Form gourps 4-10 large, drop the good rhines shotties, and just beat the snot outta stuff.. usually thier res. So long as they keep moving, and i drop them med//ammo, they can create an amazing amount of havoc. The key is to keep them moving, because it takes time to react and get to a place, especially for aliens, who are usually scattereed everywhere. Keeping them moving (and not dieing) allows me to capp, and occasionally elec, not to mention afford those annoying upgrades.
Last notes: Locking down locations: There is a time TO lock stuff down, and more times when its UNWISE. In the start of the game, i **might** lock RR, or a hive, if i feel i am losing. Midgame is a BAD time to spend 100+ res building something that a few fades to take out. Many people dont understand, but after 5 minutes the balance of the game is established.. everyone has a few res, and it becomes a race to tech and destroy RTs. Spending 2 minutes building up 2 res is useless, because the aliens will go destroy 2 more in that time. So, my conclusion is that midgame is NOT a good time to lock things down. Late game isnt much better, with all the onoses. The only time i bother is when im seiging things, like hive sor locations.
also, i let 1 -2 guys rambo.. its all important, but only good rhines.. they sneak to a hive, and set up PG.. you know what happens next.
Jhonny, one more thing. The center of the map is all important. Whether double res or not, it allows fast acess to every other important site on the map. Usually, the center of the map has short paths to all three hives, and a slightly more roundabout one to marines spawn. Examples are eclipse, tanith, origin.. Its ok NOt to have it, but be prepared to take necessary adjustments to strats if you dont.
comments?
At the outset of the game drop the ip and armory in the base, this serves a purpose. Your marines will begin the hump and you will be given time to listen for the aliens hive. Set up an arms lab too for those all important upgrades.
Now, you obviously have a few rambos on your team who have taken it upon themselves to get to the closest res tower outside your base. Group the rest of your non-rambos, have them drop a few mines in the base and set them as squad 5.
Now all you have to do is order your squad wherever you hear alien rts. Your rambos can safetly hop around the map building rts because all the aliens are distracted by squad 5.
Thats it, thats the strategy.