The Shotgun
CommunistWithAGun
Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Usefulness and lack thereof</div> Seems to me, that for 10 res, your getting little bit too much of a good deal. The grenade launcher does impressive amounts of damage, however difficult to use alone, or against a moving target. The shotgun has become the new all-around weapon. Its cheap, its effective, and devastating. HMG's, I feel, are best used against Fades and Oni, because you can lay down the law without chasing too far risking yourself. The shotgun however, is best for hive takedowns much like 1.04's HMG. The GL has become such a utility weapon I frequently hear "Why waste resources on it when the shotgun does the same thing" Well, I have to agree. The Shotgun can devastate any alien quite quickly, and it dosen't require any support. A level 1 shotgunner can take down a hive, solo, with some medpacks maybe, in 38 seconds. My point to this is the grenade launcher isn't used enough, and is not viable in a public play situation. The shotgun, is the clear choice when you need buildings *and* aliens to die, quickly, with little to no support, whereas a GL'er is dead in a 1v1 fight with a skulk.
Thats all! Thanks for taking the time to read it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thats all! Thanks for taking the time to read it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Though Focus could be good for 1 on 1, but if their are two or more witha shotgun, you will still die even with taking down 1 marine, and the marine who kills you will almost get back half the cost of the shotgun lost with RFK
Without it a couple of the bigger aliens can hide behind a corner, and take "potshots" at you wearing you down, the GL pushes them back.
I have seen a single onos wit skulk backup halt many a HA train in its tracks, simply by hiding and stomping, letting skulks finish off the helpless HA. A single Gl would have totally prevented this.
But I do have to agree with it being a little bit too powerful :/ Just thank Flayra that he turned it down to 8 shells per gun instead of 10 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Too bad an HA GL train is more effective than an HA SG train
agree, from my experience, there is no point in using anything but a shotgun unless their is an onos. In certain hives, where you can't put Ocs on top of them, a lone JP/Shotgun marine can kill a hive solo, trust me, I have done it. I always thought the Grenade Launcher was THE building killer, now its only used to turtle in your base. I can kill an OC easier with a shotgun then i can a grenade launcher. and in 2.1 with the lerk spikes gone, I can see shotgun rushes being used to much, becuase spores is easily countered by medspam. and that just makes Defense as a first chamber even more appealing.
Though Focus could be good for 1 on 1, but if their are two or more witha shotgun, you will still die even with taking down 1 marine, and the marine who kills you will almost get back half the cost of the shotgun lost with RFK
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w0rd
While it deals a tremendous amount of damage, its severe range restrictions can be a problem.
The grenade launcher is a critical tool to marine success in many cases. It keeps those annoying lerks out of your vents. :-p It is one of the best methods to deal with WOLS's and finally, with a GL and motion tracking you can do some serious damage.
"The shotgun- usefulness and lack therof"? That makes it sound like you think the shotty is underpowered.
Anyways, I agree with all of the above, specifically that the GL doesn't get enough use since a shotty pretty much does the same job.
I would suggest giving the shotty it's own damage, much like the HMG has piercing. No extra damage vs anything, (it doesn't need it) but less against chambers.
How does this fit in with the story? Who cares. Does it make the game less fun? I doubt it. I personally like being the one with the big shooty GL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Does it unbalance the game? Well not really since you can get a GL for 15 more damage. Sure it gimps the shotty a bit, but i've always felt it needed a <i>little</i> nerfing.
"The shotgun- usefulness and lack therof"? That makes it sound like you think the shotty is underpowered.
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Use<b>FUL</b>ness not use<b>LESS</b>ness. And the lack therof would be referring to the grenade launcher as it seems abit lacking in usefulness.
I agree. Every weapon deserves its niche and I hardly see the GL having one. Maybe give the shotgun 1/4 less damage or 1/2 less damage to structures would do the trick? That would mean HMG = Long range and upper lifeform killer, Shotgun = Close Range and lower lifeform killing machine like it is now, and GL = Building killer.
I think the aliens having only one hive (and hence no stomp) made a lot of difference. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"The shotgun- usefulness and lack therof"? That makes it sound like you think the shotty is underpowered.
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Use<b>FUL</b>ness not use<b>LESS</b>ness. And the lack therof would be referring to the grenade launcher as it seems abit lacking in usefulness.
I agree. Every weapon deserves its niche and I hardly see the GL having one. Maybe give the shotgun 1/4 less damage or 1/2 less damage to structures would do the trick? That would mean HMG = Long range and upper lifeform killer, Shotgun = Close Range and lower lifeform killing machine like it is now, and GL = Building killer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL I was just reading topics and thoughy WHAT? Shottie useless! I'll give him a piece of my mind!
I agree on most points, I disagree that the GL is useless though, it definately has its uses. It will be better when its reload type is changed to shottie style. If anything is lacking I think its the HMG. I don't think it should do full damage to structures, but it needs beefing up a bit, perhaps 2/3 damage.
Its good that the shottie is used more, it was barely ever used in 1.04.
So ya shotguns are an all around tool but HMG's are better than shotguns for killing aliens, and grenade launchers are better than shotguns for killing mass structures and keeping lerks back. HMG's are great for holding areas. You can have a lone jp/hmg keep the 3rd hive clear while you work on holding your res and sieging one of the other hives. HMG's are better at chasing down fades/lerks/onos and better at covering. The best way to clear out a OC infested hive is 2 hmg's covering a grenade launcher, then maybe have a few jp/shotgunners come in from behind once its clean.
I would really hate to see any nerf to the shotgun as marines have a hard enough time dealing wih fades and random OC's. Shotguns are what keep marines in the game vs decent aliens (anything works against stupid aliens). Although that may change with 2.1 because the hitboxes are "fixed" <------ blatent sarcasm
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=53107' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=21&t=53107</a>
But really, from a balance standpoint there shouldn't be any 'one way' that dominates so completely that using other weapons are unnecessary - especially with the shottie so low down on the tech tree. The theoretical advantage of the HMG and grenade launcher's range over the shotguns close range force rarely comes into play - since most NS engagements are designed to be literal knife edge battles (especially with almost all of the aliens being made into some varation of the skulk. Running walk climbing skulks, teleporting oversized skulks, flying skulks, tank skulks) the aliens are doing a poor job if you're allowed to use the best aspects of the higher weapons against them. The shottie, on the other hand, is perfectly suited to where almost all combat takes place in NS - it gets more effective the closer you get to the enemy, and since up until hive 3 there are no more effective ranged alien attacks, its almost always going to be melee.
So having the shotgun turned into something other than a swiss army knife would be a nice thing - perhaps a bit of specialization is in order so it doesn't become the all purpose counter.
Heh..
Do you KNOW how many HA's I've taken out, SOLO, as a gorgie with only web and focus spit? IIRC, Focus spit does ~60 damage or so. All I gotta do is keep that **** webbed, and it's gg 15 res + weapon. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is a moot point in vanilla NS, but it's evil in NS:C.
I still say that 90% of the arguments on the general discussion board about balance and crap are solved by 2.1. If you don't believe me, fork out 20 bucks and find out.
Furthermore, Ludic, the range restriction is a problem when...
1) Fighting lerks.
2) Fighting Onos.
3) Fighting Hive 3 Fade.
Considering a shotgun is available 10 seconds into the game and not every map is ideal for lerking...
I comm all the time and the only time I EVER drop a GL is after the ping of death has started and it's time to dig that one last gorge out of his DC fortress or because we are so filthy stinking rich that i can drop whatever my marines ask for without worrying about our res.
Shotguns are so much more effective at taking down structures. If there is really that big of a fortification that I can't knock it down with a shotgun (6+ OC and lots of DC) I'll siege it out, it's more reliable and I don't take any of my marines out of the game by making them not able to kill skulks.
1 game about 7 heavies walked into comp core, and I stomped them all... because they had no GLs, they couldn't do jack **** to me. It took the skulks about a min to finish off the helpless heavies, and we ended up winning the game because of it. You guys truly underestimate the power of the GL.
thats good then, seems in 2.1 the shotgun is better balanced, hope it stays that way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
A charging 2.1 skulk has only half the hit surface compared to a 2.0 skulk, so it's really hard to land ALL those shotgun pellets in it. OTOH, a Fade or Onos has at least twice the hit surface as compared to 2.0 ... so yea, there are some balance problems needing to be sorted out.
I want to see more JP GLs in 2.1 !
I comm all the time and the only time I EVER drop a GL is after the ping of death has started and it's time to dig that one last gorge out of his DC fortress or because we are so filthy stinking rich that i can drop whatever my marines ask for without worrying about our res.
Shotguns are so much more effective at taking down structures. If there is really that big of a fortification that I can't knock it down with a shotgun (6+ OC and lots of DC) I'll siege it out, it's more reliable and I don't take any of my marines out of the game by making them not able to kill skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So your saying, your commanding a bunch of rambo's. Well, Congrats.
GL is a projectile weapon, most effective taking out vent DC's, WOL's , and keeping higher lifeforms away, like Onos's. Someone made a good point how GL is a valiable counter to stomping Onos.
Shotgun has a short range, but it deals massive damage. Which means if you want to make the most damage, you have to get pretty darn close. And by doing so you are letting yourself in high danger. Sure there are ways to keep you alive like medspam, but their all accessible to other "gun-holders" too, so it doesnt make any difference.
Someone said that you can take out a hive/chambers with SG easily, yeah so what? You can do it with any weapon, (expect with mines, Res-wise. not worth it ;P) if your not having any counter attack from aliens when your taking the hive/chambers down. You are obviously playing against some way less skilled players. In which case shotguns specifics(<-- how is this word spelled again..) doesnt come into play.
So in all short i dont see anything wrong with SG & GL in 2.01, cant say anything about 2.1 since i havent had the change to play it.