Friendly fire
Bill
Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1108Members
Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1108Members
<div class="IPBDescription">On vs. off, 2 go in 1 goes out</div>The issue of friendly fire has long been debated in the gaming community. Some are strongly for it, while others shudder at the thought. Personally, I think that at least for the time being it's a really bad idea.
First, I'll adress the arguments for friendly fire:
<b><i>Friendly fire adds an edge of realism, makes the game more strategical, and in turn ups the fun factor of the game</i></b>
I don't really agree with this, I don't think there is a single game out there that is remotely realistic enough for this to even matter. Videogames are an escape from reality, it's the concept of these things(fighting in a war, taking down a group of terrorist) not the reality of them. Honestly, what strategy does it add? Other than trying to figure out if that shadow 3 foot ball fields away is an enemy with a sniper rifle or a friend, and the occasional time a friend jumps in front of you and you have to stop(after shooting him 3 or 4 times, go realism!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--> only to #### him off to where he turns around and shoots you 4 or 5 times in the name of revenge(go realism go!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->.
Which leads me to the next complaint: the community. Let's face it, the current community just isn't prepared for friendly fire, will it ever? Maybe, if they come up with reasonable ways to suppress tk'ing. Currently every single way has enormous flaws:
Kicking after a few tk's: This works, but in the words of Yoda "Die easy, a llama does not." The really annoying people, of which there are many, will be back after simply typing retry.
Punishments: Punishments are a decent way, but simply bring a whole new edge to the world of tk'ing. A lot of people shoot you until they get you down to little or no health, and if you try to do anything about it they'll simply punish you when you kill them.
Temp. bans: This is way is probably the best, but still has flaws. People make mistakes, and a lot of games involve battles at close quarters, it's bound to happen. The best thing to do is set it up to no less than 4 TK's. Once again we go back to the llamas, there are people who will try and get you to TK them only to get you permanetly banned.
Erm, reverse FF: If there was a factory where bad ideas were made, that is definatly where this travesty was cooked up. If you accidently shoot your team...you get hurt. This idea is so painfully stupid and pointless I don't even feel like adressing the hypocrisy of it all.
When the community comes up with a decent, effective way of stopping it I think FF COULD be fun. Right now, there are just too many holes that scream for exploiting.
Anyways, what do you think?
First, I'll adress the arguments for friendly fire:
<b><i>Friendly fire adds an edge of realism, makes the game more strategical, and in turn ups the fun factor of the game</i></b>
I don't really agree with this, I don't think there is a single game out there that is remotely realistic enough for this to even matter. Videogames are an escape from reality, it's the concept of these things(fighting in a war, taking down a group of terrorist) not the reality of them. Honestly, what strategy does it add? Other than trying to figure out if that shadow 3 foot ball fields away is an enemy with a sniper rifle or a friend, and the occasional time a friend jumps in front of you and you have to stop(after shooting him 3 or 4 times, go realism!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--> only to #### him off to where he turns around and shoots you 4 or 5 times in the name of revenge(go realism go!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->.
Which leads me to the next complaint: the community. Let's face it, the current community just isn't prepared for friendly fire, will it ever? Maybe, if they come up with reasonable ways to suppress tk'ing. Currently every single way has enormous flaws:
Kicking after a few tk's: This works, but in the words of Yoda "Die easy, a llama does not." The really annoying people, of which there are many, will be back after simply typing retry.
Punishments: Punishments are a decent way, but simply bring a whole new edge to the world of tk'ing. A lot of people shoot you until they get you down to little or no health, and if you try to do anything about it they'll simply punish you when you kill them.
Temp. bans: This is way is probably the best, but still has flaws. People make mistakes, and a lot of games involve battles at close quarters, it's bound to happen. The best thing to do is set it up to no less than 4 TK's. Once again we go back to the llamas, there are people who will try and get you to TK them only to get you permanetly banned.
Erm, reverse FF: If there was a factory where bad ideas were made, that is definatly where this travesty was cooked up. If you accidently shoot your team...you get hurt. This idea is so painfully stupid and pointless I don't even feel like adressing the hypocrisy of it all.
When the community comes up with a decent, effective way of stopping it I think FF COULD be fun. Right now, there are just too many holes that scream for exploiting.
Anyways, what do you think?
Comments
However, during clan matches, I believe it excercises precision and tactics, which is what being in a competitive clan is all about.
Even with FF off however, someone will still find a way to be an #######,,, like blowing your own team off the cliff with a shotgun so they break their legs.
As for Friendly Fire, I believe in the right circumstances it can add to a game. Does NS have the correct circumstances? Only time will tell....
maybe to stop greifers someone should make a program addon for admin-mod or something that looks at every player and who they just shot/blew up/etc. and it would be customizable to do something like:
-- Look process --
Player shoots Maveric for 10 damage
Player shoots Bill for 23 damage
Player shoots Fam for 68 damage
Player kills Fam w/ LMG
Player kills Insane w/ LMG
-- Search text process --
Player has not said sorry; sorry must've been said 3 times to avoid review process
-- Review process --
Player violated no tk 2
Player violated no ta 3 (ta=team attack)
-- Action Phase ---
Ban Player in 5 seconds for 40 minutes for 2 tk's and 3 ta's; no sorries.
-- Taunt Phase -- (set by admin of server (in game or console befor/after kick/ban))
Player, you have been banned for 40 minutes for tking 2 times, ta 3 times. If you recive this message once more, you are banned forever from this server.
Have A Nice Day. :-)
um, somthing like that. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
If only dreams could come true... <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Anyways, i am for FF on pub servers, as long as there are procedures in place.
I would play a FF pub game and use voice communication heavily if I can't find my way in to a clan <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
When you Tk somebody you have 10 seconds to say /sorrytk, once you do it, a menu appears at the dead player with this options:
1.Kill Him!!
2.Slap To death
3.Forgive
4.Kick Him
-------------------
So people usually don´t tk and its really cool with FF because you got to aim carefully, and you gotta check who´s the one you are going to shoot.
oh true, if you never say /sorrytk, you get kicked instantly and it plays a cool sound: heh.... censored <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
do u really think we gonna shoot ourselves in the back for nothing?the only reason i tk'd once is cuz i saw 2 many monsters n it was in a dark place n i shot my teammate...
to make a long story short
FF ON <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Btw...i just realized what i sed at the last line and i know theres gonna b plenty of nightmares for marines...but dont worry we're all cool people here and if i tk u,ur gonna get a sorry from me!
Marine Briefing:
Head Sci. Officer Lupe: Marines, I present to you the smart gun. It simply takes your standard IFF generator and a little device I added to the gun to make your weapon not shot while aiming at an enemy. Also, we added an alloy to all armour creating imvunrability to all standard Terran weapons. But dont be fooled me, gernades and other explosives cannot be calcualated.
Alien Briefing:
Hive collective mind: My breathren, feel deep within. You know your friend and foe. When you are chomping a fellow alien, your reflexes will take over and stop your insanity.
The only FF on servers I can enjoy are the ones that allow you to choose punishment for the teammember that killed you including the options of slay and temporary ban (2 minutes) for every kill. The last one is important, as it is the only way to protect a server against teamkilling for fun.
All servers which have a kick as worst punishment are regularly infested by idiots and not enjoyable.
As FF on requires much more concentration, I seldom play it; FF off is better for casual play.
maybe to stop greifers someone should make a program addon for admin-mod or something that looks at every player and who they just shot/blew up/etc. and it would be customizable to do something like:
-- Look process --
Player shoots Maveric for 10 damage
Player shoots Bill for 23 damage
Player shoots Fam for 68 damage
Player kills Fam w/ LMG
Player kills Insane w/ LMG
-- Search text process --
Player has not said sorry; sorry must've been said 3 times to avoid review process
-- Review process --
Player violated no tk 2
Player violated no ta 3 (ta=team attack)
-- Action Phase ---
Ban Player in 5 seconds for 40 minutes for 2 tk's and 3 ta's; no sorries.
-- Taunt Phase -- (set by admin of server (in game or console befor/after kick/ban))
Player, you have been banned for 40 minutes for tking 2 times, ta 3 times. If you recive this message once more, you are banned forever from this server.
Have A Nice Day. :-)
um, somthing like that. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
If only dreams could come true... <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Anyways, i am for FF on pub servers, as long as there are procedures in place.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or you could just do what AHL did <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Err...might as well not wait for someone to say, "What did AHL do?" <b>Assuming you people are talking about NS and not FF in general <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo--> </b>, In Action Half-Life, a key is bound to forgive the player for the TK, at their discretion. If they reach the TK limit chosen by the server (default: 3) They lose their weapons for a couple rounds and have an image over their heads that reads, "Shoot me!" There is also a second TK limit chosen by the server (default: 5) in which the player will automatically be kicked (or banned). Taking away their weapons wouldn't work for the NS gameplay, but the second should work fine. All built into NS. No admin mod needed. Maverick, you complicate things way too much <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
well... that "KILL ME" sign over the head of the TKer would work good and be friggin halarious! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
uh, yeah i think i did complexify the whole situation, i tend to do that sometimes. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
like CollateralDamage said, ff off for casual play, ff on for more concentrated gameplay
Yeah on the NERD servers if you do so much damage to people on your owne team and they type "forgive ta" to forgive you, you will be kicked and if you come back and keep doing it it somehow does a 30 minute ban.
(one big run on sentence <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo--> )
Only non-explosives count towards the limit. However, you <i>still</i> lose a frag/score every time... oh wait, there is no scoreboard in NS... Well erm... your name will be labeled with "Llama" if you kill a couple with explosives. Explosives are sometimes annoying on FF when teammates purposely jump on them when mirror damage is on (GOOD LORD this happened to me on a TFC Server. it sucked).
Mirror damage sucks, people. Let's face it. FF makes things more realistic, but mirror damage is just rediculous. Sure, it stops TK, but it also promotes whining.
My thoughts are that FF is good. It makes the majority of people watch their fire. And TK'ers? Well, that can be solved with an admin or kick system. You see, TK'ers are <b>more rare</b> than you think.... well, if you're thinking a lot of people are TK'ers, then they're more rare than you think. But there usually aren't too many.
And there certainly won't be many if all the members on this forum play games together... possibly passworded ones or something.
I think FF is good, once again. It increases realism (even though the game itself isn't realistic), forces mates to think twice (even though I find it hard to believe a man could mistake a hulking quadruped for another human; "Hey Joel? Is that you? Oh good, I was- <i>*snap*</i>"), and um... erm... I just find it more fun.
It really comes in handy when your enemy is grenade spamming or something.
Or wait! I have an idea! Max explosive TKs could be around 5 to 7, while bullet ones could be 3-4 before kick.... that sounds kind of okay... does it?
That's my two-cents. I'm sick of going to non-FF CS servers. I want some FF so people wouldn't spam so much, and think twice. Not enough FF on the internet, I think. I like how the Rainbow Six series forced Friendly fire. IT r0xx0r3d....
So you're probably going to see me shouting "Turn on the mode with FF!" or something when playing NS...
This becomes even more important when you consider the fact that a SINGLE bite from a skulk will kill another skulk, and two will kill a Lerk.
Turrets then need to be considered as well... an alien leading a turret so that it hits a marine filling up on ammo is going to be really frustrating for the marine, and vice versa.
As for the melee... hmm.... well, then I'll guess you'd have to watch where you're aiming. As long as you don't flail about, or the or the melee attack arc isn't <i>super</i> wide, then you should be okay.
Besides, a marine filling up on ammo whilst an alien is attacking them is probably gonna get killed anyway. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
ok Llama strats:
1) kill you (if there is no punish)
2) shoot you till you are real low so that you either:
A) kill em and thus get punsihed
B) get thwaked real fast by the nme
3) Run in you LoF (works for both punish and mirror dmg)
4) Spawn killing
ok now to think about this in terms of NS
1) marine/Alien takes out the CC/portal/hive, there goes the game whoo fn hoo, that was fun
2) playing with stupid turets (look if they know friend VS foe they would be able to shut off if a friend is in the way, however that is a S load of coading)
3) this is so hvly a team play mod (not to mention aparently rather faced pace with death and such), this aint like CS where if the TK kills his entire team it is one 3 min (tops) round that you get Fed for, instead you have an entire long game screwed up 4 you (look at DoD when you get a griefer)
4) as Coil pointed out, FF in close combat just dosn't work
ok, for those of yalls that say it 'adds' to the realisim
so FN WHAT?
next up I fail to see how it adds to the fun of the game, all I see is griefers/newbs just FN up the game
look, in CS, DoD, or GW it might make some sense, however this is NS, it realy just dosn't seem to fit in at all
oh well, I just hope no admin is stupidenough to make FF servers
You ever notice how in some games, the scale of models is bigger or smaller? Well, Half-Life's "scale" is larger than AvP2's. Also, the hitboxes aren't just cylinders around the player. I don't think it'll be so easy to hit your mate... I think.
A simple solution, even though it favors the aliens a lot, is to just make the aliens' melee attacks not harm enemies... or at least do hardly any damage or something.
more realism is always a nice thing
now then as for telling the diff between players, well yes an onos and a marine look diff however a fade is about the same size, and also in a game like this marines are going to have VERY itchyt trigger fingers due to the psychotic nature of aliens
oh well, I fail to see how it can make it more fun, I only see it being anoying when you accidently get shot/bit or when you do the same, and ****** agravating when you get a griefer
JUST MAKE WEAPONS STOP SHOOTING WHEN POINTING AT TEAMMATES
This is easy to do too. They are supposed to be smart guns aren't they?
Then, the concept of friendly fire as realistic measure will become irrelevant.
<b>YOU'RE ON AN ABANDONED SPACESHIP FIGHTING ALIENS FROM ANOTHER GALAXY</b>
My poor topic. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
p.s. Surge, you seem to be ignoring any facts brought up in others debates, the ability to harm other people on your team may be an important part of realism to you but when you're dealing with a community of less than mature people in the end it ends up detracting from the realism. You go play a game of Counter-Strike and accidently shoot a teammate then watch as he whines for 3 hours straight and blasts you in the face for revenge. Yeah, that's realism at it's finest.(that was a big p.s.)