Would This Help To Counter Cheating?
Soylent_green
Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">cut it off at the source</div> Multiplayer cheats are against VALVe's eula so they are not legal to use, but are they illegal to host?
What I wan't to ask is, would it help to nag until cheat-sites go underground and would this be possible to do? If cheat sites do go underground it would be a lot harder for your average cheater to get his/her hands on cheats because they are not close to the people who make the cheats, they would not know where to go and might give up the search if it proves too hard.
If those hosting the cheats is running their own web server the ISP might not take to lightly on the matter if it is reported to them. If those hosting the cheats are not running the actual web server which host the files but just rents some space then the web server operators might terminate their account or ask them to remove it if they get complaints(assuming it is not legal to host these files or that it is against their policy).
It should be better if several people complain than if just one individual does. So might it be possible to get a bunch of board members togheter(a dozen or so) to complain on each site found(without posting site adress or such on the board of course, keep it in PM's or such)? This might be a fun experiment to do assuming it is illegal to host those files or against some policy.
It is not too difficult to find sites, at least claiming to have cheats for download(took me about 2 minutes to google up one for NS), this is way to easy, wouldn't it help if it was a LOT harder?
Also, I am very glad VAC is getting put in, a lot of cheats for NS(and other slightly more obscure MODs) state that they are not VAC proof.
I do not think there is any fool-proof method to end cheating now, but cuting down the number of cheaters can only be a good thing.
PS. If you look at the steam forums you see a fair few posts like "OMG BANNED TILL 2008 WTH!!!!!111", containing things like "I NEVER CHEATERD EVAR; I AVE NOO HACKS ON MY PUTER, WHY WAS OI BANNET UNTIL 2008, WTH VALVE!!!!!!" or "My little brother/neighbour/best friend/pet installed some hacks and I am sorry, how to get uinbanned?". This is a good sign that VAC is working quite well as they seem to catch a bunch of cheaters every time they do a VAC update judging by the number of such posts that pop up after they do.
What I wan't to ask is, would it help to nag until cheat-sites go underground and would this be possible to do? If cheat sites do go underground it would be a lot harder for your average cheater to get his/her hands on cheats because they are not close to the people who make the cheats, they would not know where to go and might give up the search if it proves too hard.
If those hosting the cheats is running their own web server the ISP might not take to lightly on the matter if it is reported to them. If those hosting the cheats are not running the actual web server which host the files but just rents some space then the web server operators might terminate their account or ask them to remove it if they get complaints(assuming it is not legal to host these files or that it is against their policy).
It should be better if several people complain than if just one individual does. So might it be possible to get a bunch of board members togheter(a dozen or so) to complain on each site found(without posting site adress or such on the board of course, keep it in PM's or such)? This might be a fun experiment to do assuming it is illegal to host those files or against some policy.
It is not too difficult to find sites, at least claiming to have cheats for download(took me about 2 minutes to google up one for NS), this is way to easy, wouldn't it help if it was a LOT harder?
Also, I am very glad VAC is getting put in, a lot of cheats for NS(and other slightly more obscure MODs) state that they are not VAC proof.
I do not think there is any fool-proof method to end cheating now, but cuting down the number of cheaters can only be a good thing.
PS. If you look at the steam forums you see a fair few posts like "OMG BANNED TILL 2008 WTH!!!!!111", containing things like "I NEVER CHEATERD EVAR; I AVE NOO HACKS ON MY PUTER, WHY WAS OI BANNET UNTIL 2008, WTH VALVE!!!!!!" or "My little brother/neighbour/best friend/pet installed some hacks and I am sorry, how to get uinbanned?". This is a good sign that VAC is working quite well as they seem to catch a bunch of cheaters every time they do a VAC update judging by the number of such posts that pop up after they do.
Comments
If it were this easy, valve would have already done it.
Besides, you could probably get them on P2P networks if you wanted to. If they weren't available on the web, you could definately find them there.
For anyone to notice the cheats and have the site taken down (which could take months if the order is contested) the cheat would have to be released, that means some number of people already have it. Now... among that number of people there will be a percentage of them that are willing to share. Now we have private FTP servers, and IRC xdcc and fileserv bots, and don't forget the biggest favorite of the noobers out there: Kazaa. All of these things would make it nearly impossible to stop the distribution of these kinds of files.
I do not think it takes very much of a hassle to persuade most who are interested in starting to use cheats not to. And AFAIK(I do not use kazaa) you might not want to DL executables off kazaa due to the very high probabillity of them containing virii and other nasties since it is so easy for someone to write a malicious executable, name it after a cheat and distribute it over kazaa.
Private FTP servers and IRC are much harder to use than google. I think most just couldn't be bothered. And private FTPs are just that, private, they are much harder to find than spending 2 minutes with google.
Uhm, the use of cheats being a violation of the Half-Life license agreement by no means makes them illegal (modulo trade secret and reverse engineering discussions, which wouldn't apply to most). All it means is that if you run Half-Life with cheats you violated your license agreement and no longer have a legitimate copy (which VAC chooses to react to by yanking multi-player access).
So in addition to the earlier-mentioned holes, I see absolutely no reason for an ISP to worry about hosting them. I would assume most would cooperatively yank them if Valve/Sierra complained, but as we ain't the copyright holders...
And any kiddie that can't find cheats other than Google will probably get banned within the first fifteen "1 R 50 |33+, | @0+ H@><!!!11!11!1!1" anyway <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Chris
[edit] Can't spell when sleepy [/edit]
and if you dont like the ads and spyware in kazaa, get kazaa lite.
Hasn't Kazaa already cracked down on Kazaa Lite and stopped any sites from allowing the dl? I could've sworn I've seen that news somewhere....
Well if it's true, it's ironic. A program that lets people steal all kinds of software and music gets **** off when their program is hacked and stolen. I used to be Kazaa nubby, dl'ing everything I could get my hands on, but that evil called conscience had to show up and take it all away. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
i like yours better hehe
Hasn't Kazaa already cracked down on Kazaa Lite and stopped any sites from allowing the dl? I could've sworn I've seen that news somewhere....
Well if it's true, it's ironic. A program that lets people steal all kinds of software and music gets **** off when their program is hacked and stolen. I used to be Kazaa nubby, dl'ing everything I could get my hands on, but that evil called conscience had to show up and take it all away. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Search for Kazaa Lite on google, and read the complaint filed by Shaman Networks on the bottom of the results page. Funny stuff <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
To the thread starter, if you want a real example of this 'solution', Blizzard and the StarCraft community has tried something similar a while back. That didnt work out, they were only able to yank 2-3 sites I believe. And that was the community AND Blizzard backing them (sort of). What could we, a community that is a tiny fraction of the size of StarCraft's do?
The only counter-measure that works against cheats/cheaters is a car filled to the max on gas, a map, and a really good baseball bat. maybe some friends with other melee weapons if you can get them into the posse, too.
"Do this again and i'll break your f***ing legs." Mob style. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I, under penalties of perjury solemnly declare and affirm the following:
1. I am not visiting this site to steal material (including Information, Snapshots and Source-Codes) to use against the Webmaster, Site Operator or Host or any person in any conceivable manner.
2. I will not modify any material for personal use, unless I have permission by the creator or copyright holder.
3. I am not affiliated with any anti-cheating organizations or PunkBuster/CSHP/UTPure/CheatingDeath/CS-Guard/Paladin/CAC/CSBlacklist; or I am seeking out evidence which may serve as a medium for any charge of violating federal, state or local laws.
4. If you are from VAC/PunkBuster/CS-Guard/CheatingDeath/Paladin/CSHP/UTPure/CAC/CSBlacklist or any other anti-cheating organization, or something similar, and you enter this site. You are in violation of violating code 431.322.12 of the Internet Privacy Act.
5. <b>Everything that is downloaded is for educational purposes only.</b>
9. By entering UnKnoWnCheaTs.CoM-Sites you declare the above. The ontract will have the same rights as a legal agreement, a legal act. By abusing the contract you are suspect of a criminal charge (forgery).<b>The creator of this page or the ISP(s) hosting any content on this site take no responsibility for the way you use the information provided on this site.</b> These files and anything else on this site are here for private purposes only and should not be downloaded or viewed whatsoever! If you are affiliated with any government, or ANTI-Piracy group or any other related group or were formally a worker of one you cannot enter this web site, cannot access any of its files and you cannot view any of the HTML files. All the objects on this site are private property and are not meant for viewing or any other purposes other then bandwidth space. Do not enter whatsoever!<b> If you enter this site you are not agreeing to these terms and you are violating code 431.322.12 of the Internet Privacy Act signed by Bill Clinton in 1995 and that means that you cannot + threaten our ISP(s) or any person(s) or company storing these files, cannot prosecute any person(s) affiliated with this page</b> which includes family, friends or individuals who run or enter this web site.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So pretty much, you can't touch them.. you need evidence, but you can't enter it to get evidence.. so you don't really have much to go on. And if you enter anyway, you can't use anything you saw against them..
Besides game cheats are in no way against any U.S. law.. that I know of
any newb can go and compile it and he has his completely legal cheat that doesnt break the eula
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I, under penalties of perjury solemnly declare and affirm the following:
1. I am not visiting this site to steal material (including Information, Snapshots and Source-Codes) to use against the Webmaster, Site Operator or Host or any person in any conceivable manner.
2. I will not modify any material for personal use, unless I have permission by the creator or copyright holder.
3. I am not affiliated with any anti-cheating organizations or PunkBuster/CSHP/UTPure/CheatingDeath/CS-Guard/Paladin/CAC/CSBlacklist; or I am seeking out evidence which may serve as a medium for any charge of violating federal, state or local laws.
4. If you are from VAC/PunkBuster/CS-Guard/CheatingDeath/Paladin/CSHP/UTPure/CAC/CSBlacklist or any other anti-cheating organization, or something similar, and you enter this site. You are in violation of violating code 431.322.12 of the Internet Privacy Act.
5. <b>Everything that is downloaded is for educational purposes only.</b>
9. By entering UnKnoWnCheaTs.CoM-Sites you declare the above. The ontract will have the same rights as a legal agreement, a legal act. By abusing the contract you are suspect of a criminal charge (forgery).<b>The creator of this page or the ISP(s) hosting any content on this site take no responsibility for the way you use the information provided on this site.</b> These files and anything else on this site are here for private purposes only and should not be downloaded or viewed whatsoever! If you are affiliated with any government, or ANTI-Piracy group or any other related group or were formally a worker of one you cannot enter this web site, cannot access any of its files and you cannot view any of the HTML files. All the objects on this site are private property and are not meant for viewing or any other purposes other then bandwidth space. Do not enter whatsoever!<b> If you enter this site you are not agreeing to these terms and you are violating code 431.322.12 of the Internet Privacy Act signed by Bill Clinton in 1995 and that means that you cannot + threaten our ISP(s) or any person(s) or company storing these files, cannot prosecute any person(s) affiliated with this page</b> which includes family, friends or individuals who run or enter this web site.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So pretty much, you can't touch them.. you need evidence, but you can't enter it to get evidence.. so you don't really have much to go on. And if you enter anyway, you can't use anything you saw against them..
Besides game cheats are in no way against any U.S. law.. that I know of <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont care. Slap down all the legal s*** they want on my forehead; if they're doing something that is illegal in the game's rules, they're gonna pay any way i can make em'. ::super-evil smiley face of d00m:: and if that involves destroying their hard drive with 4 pounds of thermite then so be it.
[edit]"legal cheat" is a oximoron; in school atleast. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> [/edit]
The sites were hosted elsewhere within a few days though, so its only a temporary solution.
Also I heard of some people who found the biggest file on their web site then got all their friends to download it constantly thereby putting the web site over its bandwidth limit and closing it down for the month. Of course I wouldn't promote such a thing. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway whatever you do they'll just move somewhere else, its a constant battle that most people can't be bothered with. Also eventually they'll probably find some east european porn hosting company that couldn't care less what they host on their site.
Script kiddies with DDOS power.
Of course, one could argue that snopes released this as a counter to the fact that there is indeed a law, and they want websites to be fooled into thinking there isnt. Damn conspiracies.
Nice idea. That would be legal though if not stated otherwise in the cheat sites 'license agreement'?
Yet I have seen 5 people aimbot in NS so this is apparently not the case(and yes they where absolutely 99.999% certainly aimbotting, real people do not 'snap to target'(repeatedly not just once, that could be luck), turn 180 degrees in one frame and shoot at a skulk peeking it's head out of a vent and hit every single shot or stand and aim at aliens when they are AFKing in marine spawn without firing). I suspect that I have stumbled into a lot more less obvious aimbotters and just taken them for good players(I would not accuse anyone until I have at least specced them in first person and seen some of those tell tale signs, and I would record a demo or team_say things to the admin instead of getting into a futile discussion with the cheater).
VAC support should help alot, insecure servers not running Hlguard, C-D or any other anti-cheat are not at all protected from cheaters other than by admins, and most servers do not have admins present most of the time. If they get banned from one server they can just go to another. So right now all you can rely on is good admins or cheating-death or LAN parties, this severely limits the number of servers you can play on without worrying about cheaters, especially if there are few servers in your area allready.
Ah.. but heres the thing (and no, I don't cheat, or host a cheat site, or condone cheats; I'm trying to show you the other side of your logic)
I *never* had to sign, click, accept.. whatever, a thing that said "You are not allowed to modify this game, or alter memory values" sure.. when I connect to *some* servers I see, "We do not allow cheaters" but... you don't even see this anymore, for lack of a consgreet due to steam.
Half life has no rules.. its a game.. it has hard coded stuff that prevent you from doing things, but these are not "rules" and before you go into.. well monopoly is a game so it has rules.. you can sit down at a computer running half life, and begin playing without reading anything about the game.. you may not do well, but you will be able to play.. monopoly you have to read the rules to learn to play, you can't just sit down and start playing (the corrrect way at least)
The only seeming rule I can see in half life is "enjoy yourself" and if the people who download cheats find cheating to be a way to enjoy yourself, then I don't see a thing wrong, as long as they don't bother me. If they are playing somewhere where the server wants to continue the enjoyment of everyone, then they probably will get kicked and banned. However, if they are running a server and *you* join, you may not even know the server operator is cheating, but they run the server for <u>their</u> enjoyment, not yours.
Now, VAC.. VAC is optional, its not even supported in ns currently.. but this is something that at least tries to make sure everyone is on the same level. It may not do its job perfectly, but it works.
So really, unless their ISP has rules against hosting cheats, you can't do anything..
<b>Note:</b> Thank you all, you have not once called the cheaters hackers, hacking implies skill.. cheating does not, good job
<b>Note 2:</b> No matter where you go, people will be obsessed with winning, and will cheat.. its a fact of life
And cheating isn't funny to most people. It's like walking in on a game of 4 people playing Monopoly then just kicking over the whole board then giggling to yourself. You may of thought it was amusing but no one else does and you deserve to get your **** kicked for it. Feel free to kick over other people's games on a server of your own but keep it away from those who want a fair game.
but cheats are only ok if everyone agrees to messaround.