The only problem with that is the commchair has a crapload of health, even when unbuilt. It will last much longer than 2 offensive chambers will. Also, marines can attack offense chambers from far away when the commchair is closer to the OCs. The aliens don't have that option when attacking turrets. And given that offensive chamber placement and turret placement differ GREATLY, commchairs are more effective at distracting grouped OC fire than a few alien structures would be distracting turret fire.
Well, the same argument can be made against having TF's, let's face it...both types of static defense are pretty different (aside from the fact that they attack stuff within their LoS), and as such the tactics aren't really comparable
A while ago I had the luck to play a game with Flayra on some obscure server. Of course, people asked all sorts of questions, but I remember this one in particular: Its legal if its in the game and doesn't require a console command until such a time that we take it out or change it (well, thats the gist of it). So CC dropping is legal until it is taken out.
On a side note, in the second game we played, I devoured Flayra after we destroyed his CC. Because he had someone else alive, he had to sit the whole time until he died staring at the nice digestion sprite <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
(I wonder if Flayra is going to ban me for that? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
you can say its not an exploit cause flyra hasnt taken it out yet, but it doesnt change anything.
heres an idea, next time relocate to siege room, build a cc wall, and build a pg through the geomitry so the aliens definately cant win!!! none of this require a console command.
meh edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why should marines be held to a double standard. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont hold the double standard. its just as cheap to drop 3-4 hives in marine start. dont do that either <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--deaincaelo+Nov 18 2003, 11:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (deaincaelo @ Nov 18 2003, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i dont hold the double standard. its just as cheap to drop 3-4 hives in marine start. dont do that either <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That'd be AWESOME to have 4 hives at marine start. think how quickly you could spawn!!!
but that isn't possible in the game so <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and yes I do know that you probably meant to say OCs, since that is possible.
Specific severs may ban CC dropping and walling, but some also ban non-english speakers. It may be lame, but it is legal (until an angry admin bans you, that is).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> we're talking about using the unbuilt structure to advance/win the game, not to hole up in MS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dropping CC walls can be a very effective way of advancing/winning the game, because you can block off whole areas from aliens for a considerable length of time. IMHO it sits alongside structures blocking OC fire...
<!--QuoteBegin--deaincaelo+Nov 18 2003, 11:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (deaincaelo @ Nov 18 2003, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> heres an idea, next time relocate to siege room, build a cc wall, and build a pg through the geomitry so the aliens definately cant win!!! none of this require a console command. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> deaincaelo, I don't even understand what you mean by that.
Marines start with 100 res. If they can successfully pull off a relocation while building a CC wall, you've got some pretty crappy aliens. 100 res is 4 CCs, not even including an IP or a RT at the new site. Building a minimum of 1 IP and 1 RT you've got enough res left for one extra CC. Yes! A 2-CC wall! That'll be effective at blocking off aliens!! Especially since one of them is the 'real' CC (that the commander sits in...)
As for dropping OCs at marine start, that's a perfectly valid tactic as well -- it's an integral part of the gorge rush.
Anyway, while I've been a major supporter for the concept, I have to admit that I actually never really use CCs to block OCs. It's not that I'm a particularly nice guy. It just doesn't work practically in game, for all the reasons stated above. Seriously, if the comm can afford to drop CCs to block your OCs, you've probably already lost the game as it is, and he's doing you a service by ending it quicker so that you can get a fresh start.
yes, i think LB has decided this is not allowed, because CCs weren't designed for it. i'm kinda split on the subject. but overall, id ont' think i've ever done this for two reasons -it makes me feel icky -i never have that much money unless it's end game, and my rines have full ups and full toys, in that case, they can just gl it to heck
no, this is in NO way an exploit ... unless you consider walls of lame an exploit.
actually, the only way that a commander can TRULY exploit this is if they drop a COMMAND CHAIR in front of an oc "rose of death."
This is because the comm chair is VERY cost effective (what like 20-25 res) and it comes packed with 10,000 hitpoints and it doesn't even need building. so i suppose that if you spam comm chairs to block oc fire, then that should be considered exploiting. however, ANYTHING else is NOT.
if you drop a tf in front of an oc wall, a tf doesn't have that much hit points. 5 oc's and one or two skulks chomping at it will kill it in 2 seconds tops. Since most other structures have around the same hitpoint as an unbuilt tf, they also apply (as in it ain't exploiting to draw oc fire).
For those of you who want to argue against me ... consider this: 1) marines siege a hive, gorge spams mc's or whatever chambers and draws the siege's fire, giving gorges time to heal the hives ... same principle there 2) gorges dropping oc's in front of turrets to attract turret fire, thus letting skulks/fades/lerks/whatever fly/leap by without MUCH harm
Also, I've seen the alien team block off ENTIRE hallways with a HUGE wall of lame. DC on bottom, OC's stacked on top, so OC can still fire, and sensories in the back. This is EXTREMELY prevalent on custom maps, but it occurs somewhat frequently on normal maps. I mean sure building weren't "meant" to draw oc fire in hallways or whatever ... but i think that chambers also weren't "meant" to totally block off access in a hallway.
Dropping structures to disctract OC fire is NO different than getting gorgs to heal skulks attacking an electrified RT,or gorgs healing skulks biting turrets,or gorgs dropping OCs to distract turret fire/electrification.
Since those arent considered exploits,why should dropping structures be?
You could say CCs last forever...well guess what....a gorg healing an OC lasts forever(literally) against turret fire too.....and they cost the same.
Guys, no matter how much you argue that "it is still in the game" doesn't change the fact that it wasn't an intended use of the cc. If they wanted a barricade they would have put one in. In 2.1 buildings will be unstackable, so that fixes one problem. The only way to fix the cc problem is to make it start with a tiny amount of health so that it buys the cc like 10 seconds of oc fire. Overall though, this is an exploit, as it has not been said to be acceptable by the creators.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hunty+Nov 19 2003, 10:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 19 2003, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dropping structures to disctract OC fire is NO different than getting gorgs to heal skulks attacking an electrified RT,or gorgs healing skulks biting turrets,or gorgs dropping OCs to distract turret fire/electrification.
Since those arent considered exploits,why should dropping structures be?
You could say CCs last forever...well guess what....a gorg healing an OC lasts forever(literally) against turret fire too.....and they cost the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two Things:
1) Gorg healing skulks requires the full use of one gorg. CC distraction requires the full use of no player activity. It will take a minimum of two people to destroy an electrified RT, assuming that the Comm doesn't care about the RT. (Might take more if the comm does) You could use a DC instead of a gorg, but would this become an exploit? Is healing in general an exploit? You could use healing spray with a skulk on a marine to keep the skulk alive and drain the marine. Is THIS an exploit? Not only that, but even with adrenline (Which usually people have at hive 2), a gorg's heal spray WILL run out quite fast. Will a CC's heal spray run out quite fast? If the CC didn't have 40,000,000,000 HP from being unbuilt, then yes it would not be an exploit any more than it would be to drop an armory to distract the OCs.
2) Gorges run out of healing spray. That and three marines shooting an OC will drain the HP faster than a gorg can restore it. 3 OCs shooting at a CC.... we're talking about 8 OCs shooting at a CC here. And marines are free. OCs aren't. Neither are gorges. Bullets are free after a small investment in an armory. Shotties cost 10 res. Dropping a CC on an onos to trap it? Priceless.
--- Solution ---
Reduce CC HP. WHY does it have so much HP anyway? If the aliens can even reach it, then the humans are probably screwed anyway. If your worried about skulks running up to it and eating it, slap an electrified TF next to it. Or even better, have electrified CCs. *Shrug*
Question: Can electrified buildings shock OTHER buildings?
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 21 2003, 03:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 21 2003, 03:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A thousand scholars of logic and reasoning turn in their graves at the sight of this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> rather than make fun of our apparent lack of knowledge, could you point at a thread that discusses/settles this issue? or offer input of your own?
<!--QuoteBegin--Niteowl+Nov 24 2003, 12:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Niteowl @ Nov 24 2003, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> rather than make fun of our apparent lack of knowledge, could you point at a thread that discusses/settles this issue? or offer input of your own? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I could, but that would involve breaking character ;)
Although i should point out that every thread that ever contained in its topic "Is x an exploit?" went to hell in a hand basket.
yeah, not sure if this topic has actually gone to hell in a handbasket, or even to a slightly dingy side of hades in an eggcart even <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
seemed quite useful to me. great input <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
On a side note, in the second game we played, I devoured Flayra after we destroyed his CC. Because he had someone else alive, he had to sit the whole time until he died staring at the nice digestion sprite <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
(I wonder if Flayra is going to ban me for that? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
you can say its not an exploit cause flyra hasnt taken it out yet, but it doesnt change anything.
heres an idea, next time relocate to siege room, build a cc wall, and build a pg through the geomitry so the aliens definately cant win!!! none of this require a console command.
meh
edit:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why should marines be held to a double standard. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont hold the double standard. its just as cheap to drop 3-4 hives in marine start. dont do that either <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That'd be AWESOME to have 4 hives at marine start. think how quickly you could spawn!!!
but that isn't possible in the game so <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and yes I do know that you probably meant to say OCs, since that is possible.
we're talking about using the unbuilt structure to advance/win the game, not to hole up in MS
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dropping CC walls can be a very effective way of advancing/winning the game, because you can block off whole areas from aliens for a considerable length of time. IMHO it sits alongside structures blocking OC fire...
You guys seem to neglect the fact that dropping a CC costs the same res as 10 medpacks, more than enough for a marine to kill a mid-size (~3 OCs) WoL.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
deaincaelo, I don't even understand what you mean by that.
Marines start with 100 res. If they can successfully pull off a relocation while building a CC wall, you've got some pretty crappy aliens. 100 res is 4 CCs, not even including an IP or a RT at the new site. Building a minimum of 1 IP and 1 RT you've got enough res left for one extra CC. Yes! A 2-CC wall! That'll be effective at blocking off aliens!! Especially since one of them is the 'real' CC (that the commander sits in...)
As for dropping OCs at marine start, that's a perfectly valid tactic as well -- it's an integral part of the gorge rush.
Anyway, while I've been a major supporter for the concept, I have to admit that I actually never really use CCs to block OCs. It's not that I'm a particularly nice guy. It just doesn't work practically in game, for all the reasons stated above. Seriously, if the comm can afford to drop CCs to block your OCs, you've probably already lost the game as it is, and he's doing you a service by ending it quicker so that you can get a fresh start.
Rhuadin
-it makes me feel icky
-i never have that much money unless it's end game, and my rines have full ups and full toys, in that case, they can just gl it to heck
actually, the only way that a commander can TRULY exploit this is if they drop a COMMAND CHAIR in front of an oc "rose of death."
This is because the comm chair is VERY cost effective (what like 20-25 res) and it comes packed with 10,000 hitpoints and it doesn't even need building. so i suppose that if you spam comm chairs to block oc fire, then that should be considered exploiting. however, ANYTHING else is NOT.
if you drop a tf in front of an oc wall, a tf doesn't have that much hit points. 5 oc's and one or two skulks chomping at it will kill it in 2 seconds tops. Since most other structures have around the same hitpoint as an unbuilt tf, they also apply (as in it ain't exploiting to draw oc fire).
For those of you who want to argue against me ... consider this:
1) marines siege a hive, gorge spams mc's or whatever chambers and draws the siege's fire, giving gorges time to heal the hives ... same principle there
2) gorges dropping oc's in front of turrets to attract turret fire, thus letting skulks/fades/lerks/whatever fly/leap by without MUCH harm
Also, I've seen the alien team block off ENTIRE hallways with a HUGE wall of lame. DC on bottom, OC's stacked on top, so OC can still fire, and sensories in the back. This is EXTREMELY prevalent on custom maps, but it occurs somewhat frequently on normal maps. I mean sure building weren't "meant" to draw oc fire in hallways or whatever ... but i think that chambers also weren't "meant" to totally block off access in a hallway.
Since those arent considered exploits,why should dropping structures be?
You could say CCs last forever...well guess what....a gorg healing an OC lasts forever(literally) against turret fire too.....and they cost the same.
One unattended OC kills how much unattended turrets?
Try it,u will be surprised
Since those arent considered exploits,why should dropping structures be?
You could say CCs last forever...well guess what....a gorg healing an OC lasts forever(literally) against turret fire too.....and they cost the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two Things:
1) Gorg healing skulks requires the full use of one gorg. CC distraction requires the full use of no player activity. It will take a minimum of two people to destroy an electrified RT, assuming that the Comm doesn't care about the RT. (Might take more if the comm does) You could use a DC instead of a gorg, but would this become an exploit? Is healing in general an exploit? You could use healing spray with a skulk on a marine to keep the skulk alive and drain the marine. Is THIS an exploit? Not only that, but even with adrenline (Which usually people have at hive 2), a gorg's heal spray WILL run out quite fast. Will a CC's heal spray run out quite fast? If the CC didn't have 40,000,000,000 HP from being unbuilt, then yes it would not be an exploit any more than it would be to drop an armory to distract the OCs.
2) Gorges run out of healing spray. That and three marines shooting an OC will drain the HP faster than a gorg can restore it. 3 OCs shooting at a CC.... we're talking about 8 OCs shooting at a CC here. And marines are free. OCs aren't. Neither are gorges. Bullets are free after a small investment in an armory. Shotties cost 10 res. Dropping a CC on an onos to trap it? Priceless.
--- Solution ---
Reduce CC HP. WHY does it have so much HP anyway? If the aliens can even reach it, then the humans are probably screwed anyway. If your worried about skulks running up to it and eating it, slap an electrified TF next to it. Or even better, have electrified CCs. *Shrug*
Question: Can electrified buildings shock OTHER buildings?
rather than make fun of our apparent lack of knowledge, could you point at a thread that discusses/settles this issue? or offer input of your own?
your post is rather throw away, as is.
Even more so, how are you supposed to heal them? or cloak?
Defending a hive/keyhole with OCs is rendered completely worthless with CCs.
Yes they can
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could, but that would involve breaking character ;)
Although i should point out that every thread that ever contained in its topic "Is x an exploit?" went to hell in a hand basket.
seemed quite useful to me. great input <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->