Dropping Structs To Draw Oc Fire
Niteowl
Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">an exploit?</div> Trying to pound out some server rules with Lightening Blue et al for Lunixmonster, we are currently struggling with whether dropping structures to draw oc fire is bad. would appreciate insight and arguments about it.
one one hand, it seems unfair to nullify 50 rez worth of OCs with a 20 rez tfac (or is it 15) . on the other hand, you can completely obliterate it with a 20 rez GL.
opinions, thoughts?
one one hand, it seems unfair to nullify 50 rez worth of OCs with a 20 rez tfac (or is it 15) . on the other hand, you can completely obliterate it with a 20 rez GL.
opinions, thoughts?
Comments
Anyway, I say keep it because I like to do it as comm.
I think it should be considered an exploit as long as OCs are programmed to attack the closest object regardless of whether it's a HA Marine trying to knife it or a freshly-dropped CC, and is unable to "intelligently" select another target that is more threatening (like a GL-firing Marine, compared to a CC, in your example).
Maybe a solution to this problem is to make just-dropped, unbuilt structures untargetable by OCs. Better still, make them semi-solid to OC spikes, so that they can shoot right through them like they weren't there. Is it something difficult to code?
I never understood why buildings don't just start with 1% of their health(when unbuilt, duh)... would reduce a whole bunch of annoying things. For both sides.
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but in its current form, it's EEBIL eh?
yeah uranium, that makes the most sense, it wasn't MADE to do that, so it's bad.
and, if this is the wasted i've played with time to time since 1.00, HEYA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it should be considered an exploit as long as OCs are programmed to attack the closest object regardless of whether it's a HA Marine trying to knife it or a freshly-dropped CC, and is unable to "intelligently" select another target that is more threatening (like a GL-firing Marine, compared to a CC, in your example).
Maybe a solution to this problem is to make just-dropped, unbuilt structures untargetable by OCs. Better still, make them semi-solid to OC spikes, so that they can shoot right through them like they weren't there. Is it something difficult to code? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No , to make it more realistic give them the HL grunt AI so that they fight in squads and move around dropped CCs to reach marines... maybe flee if they see an HA ? Since it's really hax to weld a teammate's armor while he's knifing an OC...
Dropping a CC costs just as much as dropping a GL. This tactic might be effective , but it's expensive as well. Sounds like a very valid tactic.
I think it should be considered an exploit as long as OCs are programmed to attack the closest object regardless of whether it's a HA Marine trying to knife it or a freshly-dropped CC, and is unable to "intelligently" select another target that is more threatening (like a GL-firing Marine, compared to a CC, in your example).
Maybe a solution to this problem is to make just-dropped, unbuilt structures untargetable by OCs. Better still, make them semi-solid to OC spikes, so that they can shoot right through them like they weren't there. Is it something difficult to code? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No , to make it more realistic give them the HL grunt AI so that they fight in squads and move around dropped CCs to reach marines... maybe flee if they see an HA ? Since it's really hax to weld a teammate's armor while he's knifing an OC...
Dropping a CC costs just as much as dropping a GL. This tactic might be effective , but it's expensive as well. Sounds like a very valid tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
UNfortunately the reasoning of price sorta falls short, because keep in mind, 30 res from 3 res nodes can be acquired in seconds for a commander, but 100 res for a half-way decent defensive wall from 6 alien res nodes will still take about 5 minutes.
Not an exploit. And thats a terrible reason. Just because the game developers didn't forsee a different use for something doesn't make it an exploit.
However I will respect your demand IF you are the head admin of LM or that is the decided server policy.
I don't do it on any server that specifically says not to in the rules when connecting. I also don't do it if the admin says don't do it again. But that goes for any rule that the admins make on a server.
This is something admins have to decide on a per-server basis and make it blatantly clear how they feel about this issue so players know right as they are connecting.
80% res back in the beta
someone tell flay/max to test out some new oc target code
Why? I'd keep one marine hiding in each hive. As soon as an unwitting gorge runs in and drops a hive, *bam* one clip and the hive's down. Bye 40 res, and bye gorge as soon as that marine reloads.
Gorge rushes wouldn't be viable anymore. Heck, playing offensively as a gorge wouldn't be viable anymore. Wanna drop a DC and hide behind it while people shoot at you? Can't do it anymore. Wanna gorge rush base and have everyone drop OCs while you healspray everyone? Well, you can healspray, but those OCs are going to die right when you drop them. I know I thank my lucky stars when a marine runs into a room in which I'm building stuff as a gorge, because said stuff won't die immediately despite the fact that it's unbuilt (and I can kill the marine with spit while my structures are busy absorbing all his bullets)!
And what about me as a commander? Oh no! I can no longer drop CCs by OCs to protect my marines in a game I'm already obviously going to win because I've got tons of res to waste to do it. OH NOES f4!
Personally, I'd prefer it if they made structures start at 1%, but maybe you alien players should be more careful about what you wish for. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Rhuadin
EDIT: Sorry, I guess I should've made my underlying point more apparent: What I meant was that instead of saying "Oh no, the 8 OCs I built in one big clump are now rendered obsolete by one 25 res CC" you should think about building your chambers in patterns that don't 1) Get killed easily by siege 2) Get killed easily by grenade launchers and 3) Block the onos on your team from getting past. If you did build them correctly (intelligently) and the marine commander has to drop a CC for each one of the 8 OCs that you put down, you should be congratulating yourself -- you just spent 80 res to make the marines waste 200.
Also consider the expenditure of res: It's the commander's job to spend res to keep his soldiers alive long enough to accomplish their mission. Medpacks and Ammopacks are the standard way of doing this, but dropping buildings to "prevent" damage is also a 'spend res for survival' idea. Think about it this way -- for the 200 res that the commander spent nullifying your 8 OCs, he could've just dropped 100 medpacks. <b>One hundred medpacks.</b> And then none of his marines would die in that location again. <b>Evar.</b>
And let's face it: Gorges drop OCs to divert turret fire while they bilebomb outposts. Should this be considered an exploit too? No. Turrets are dumb. OCs are dumb. They're supposed to track and fire on the closest target.
But what if they have 200+ res for every 80 that you have? Then get to work killing their RTs. You're missing the strategic picture. And count yourself lucky that the comm didn't spend that 200 res on outfitting his team with HAs and big guns.
So to sum up:
Instead of considering buildings providing cover from OC fire an exploit, ask yourself these questions first:
1) Why did I drop enough OCs in one location in a layout so inferior as to make it cost effective for the commander to drop one building to nullify them all.
2) Why did I waste a huge amount of res on dropping a lot of OCs? Couldn't I instead have done other things to help the team like dropped hives, or upgrade chambers, or going onos? Why must I insist on the alien counterpart to turret farming?
3) Why does the comm have enough res to do such a thing in the first place?
4) Would having unbuilt buildings start at 1% hurt me more than it would help me?
I guess my Edit's longer than my original post... oops. Anyway, I hope that all made sense, and remember -- turret/OC farming is bad!
Rhuadin
You would NEVER be able to recycle anything. Think about that.
Those OCs already die so incredibly fast in front of 4+ upgraded marines. No big loss.
And hiding marines are so much easier to ferret out than hiding Skulks. I don't think you've thought this through. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That 8 CC for 8 OC scenario is pretty far-fetched you know. And wouldn't it be nice if the aliens had a structure that could withstand an attack from 8 turrets while unbuilt for a decent amount of time? Too bad they don't have one.
No more 100% recycling of unbuilt structures? Peachy Keen!
I suppose my playing style just meshes better with having structures start at 1% then. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't recycle anything anyway -- I prefer to let the aliens waste their time chomping on it while my marines do their work, and then I just send someone over to rebuild it later.
I would have to agree with you that it's easier to ferret out a hiding marine than a hiding skulk; however, I have more success hiding as a marine than as a skulk. Why? 1) No one expects hiding marines (they're supposed to be in a group!) 2) People expect hiding skulks. I suppose, if 1% unbuilt structures got implemented, people would *eventually* start checking before they dropped the hive, but it'd work for a while -- and I know that it's rare that anybody checks past a casual glance to see if a room's occupied or not before dropping the hive.
I agree that the 8CC to 8OC scenario was ridiculous. It was in response, however, to the original post that mentioned that you could nullify 50 res worth of OCs with a building. What I was trying to say was that no one drops 5 OCs in the same room, and if they do they should seriously think about their res priority, OR at least not place them in a clump where they'd all die at the same time under GL fire.
In practice, the average I see in a room is 2, and if they have to drop a CC to deal with 2 OCs, you've done your job, since it cost you 20 res and it cost them 25.
But this is sort of like dropping tons of CCs to drag the game out and give the Onos something to do for 20 minutes.
I don't know about "exploit" but I agree its pretty lame.
I would say that if a server bans dropping structures over IPs or using them to jam lifts, then they should ban structures from being used to block OCs/corridors.
Turnabout is fair play.
Instead of considering buildings providing cover from OC fire an exploit, ask yourself these questions first:
1) Why did I drop enough OCs in one location in a layout so inferior as to make it cost effective for the commander to drop one building to nullify them all.
2) Why did I waste a huge amount of res on dropping a lot of OCs? Couldn't I instead have done other things to help the team like dropped hives, or upgrade chambers, or going onos? Why must I insist on the alien counterpart to turret farming?
3) Why does the comm have enough res to do such a thing in the first place?
4) Would having unbuilt buildings start at 1% hurt me more than it would help me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh oh, here we go with the 'You're a stupid little **** and it's your fault' reasonings again...
That clearly wasn't the intention of his post, but if it had been, then you just proved him right.
and necrosis, we're talking about using the unbuilt structure to advance/win the game, not to hole up in MS. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Funny tho, me and some of the evo crew were bouncing servers as NSPlayer back in March, one of us dropped 20 CC's in Fusion, made all the OC's go nuts and crashed the server <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
What about tournamentmode? Clans have no problems with exploits, and some commanders simply drop a CC on top of the alien hive so any OCs will shoot the hive(Friendly Fire in tourny mode...). That's pretty hard to avoid, unless you put all your buildings outside your hive area- and there might not be space to do so. Plus you would lose the hive 20 hp heal bonus.
Maybe marine buildings shouldn't be allowed to be placed near alien buildings, 10 feet or so. Preferably without the "red glow" you get when trying to place it outside the map or somethingsuch, as it would be really easy to detect cloaked buildings then.
I swear to god if I have to read 'but the commander obviously has enough res to crush you to waste it' I'm going to go ballistic, because it's <b>not freaking true</b>
Res for marines to get 1 unupgraded HMG: 65
Res for one skulk to go lerk to kill that 1 unupgraded HMG/LA: 5
Res for marines to get HA: 105
I don't see your point.
Res for marines to get 1 unupgraded HMG: 65
Res for one skulk to go lerk to kill that 1 unupgraded HMG/LA: 5
Res for marines to get HA: 105
I don't see your point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Congratulations, you've managed to completely and utterly overlook a fundamental part of NS. I'll give you fifteen minutes to figure out what that is.
Uranium:
I think it's funny that you mention that RFK benefits marines. Actually, RFK benefits aliens (as very well written in an earlier post, I'll find it when I have the time)
Basically what it said is, the marine commander gets 1res per 1RT every 6 seconds. Each alien gets (1/N)res per 1RT every 6 seconds, where N is the number of aliens on the team. Let us call these the 'base' res per second for each entity.
Now, as you said below, a kill equals 3 res via RFK (it's actually 2, but I'll use your number).
This means the marines get 3 ''base' res rate' res points, or basically, 6*3 = 18 seconds of what it would take for an RT to contribute the same thing.
This also means that an alien gets 3*N ''base' res rate' res points, or basically, 6*3*N = 18N seconds of what it would take for an RT to contribute the same to that alien.
On a typical 6v6 game, that means per kill the marines get 18 seconds worth of res, but an alien gets 216 (two hundred and sixteen) seconds (or more than three minutes!) worth of res.
Compound this with the fact that it's usually the same 'elite' alien that keeps making all the kills (the guy at the top of the team) and you've got fades in no time while the comm is struggling with upgrades. Trust me, 25 res is an investment for a marine team for a building that does absolutely nothing but stall a couple OCs. If it truly is the case that 25 res is <b>nothing</b> to the marines, then you've let them keep too many RTs and are losing <b>anyway</b>.
NiteOwl:
Thanks for reading. If you want any clarifications or further observations I'd be happy to provide it.
Rhuadin
This also means that an alien gets 3*N ''base' res rate' res points, or basically, 6*3*N = 18N seconds of what it would take for an RT to contribute the same to that alien.
On a typical 6v6 game, that means per kill the marines get 18 seconds worth of res, but an alien gets 216 (two hundred and sixteen) seconds (or more than three minutes!) worth of res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to get into hypothetical situations, this conversation is doomed. Guessing at what the 'leet' player will get for kills isn't helping. I divided it among all the aliens on a 10 alien team makes the most sense. Furthermore, your logic of 216 res 'ticks' a second is flawed simply by the fact that the entire resource system in this game is flawed. You could easilly 'prove' your point by showing how screwed up the game is in a 3 vs 3, or a 12 vs 12.
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I don't count marine starting res because it is usually spent on the following: 2 ip's, some base defense, and resource towers. Yes, I realize you can get HMG's real easy, with starting res, but let's face the facts. You can't do jack with an HMG and no spawn portal. You have to match alien expansion, or deny it, and that costs res. The reason I listed the amount for a single skulk is that that single skulk doesn't need to help the team expand, the rest of the team can do it instead.
*edit srry for doubleposting*
You say Whee overlook's a fundamental aspect of NS, but then you go on to say that? I hope you realize how absurd you are sounding. According to your logic, you could make the conclusion that resources are more valuable to the marine team, because it only cost 2 res to get a level 3 upgrade, but yet it cost 20 res to get a marine upgrade. OMG! It only cost 2 res for an alien to upgrade and 20 for marines to upgrade!!11? WTH! 2 res for the alien team is NOTHING!
That's the whole POINT. Aliens use their resources individually, while the marine's resources are drawn from a larger pool.
10 marines get a kill. That's 20 res gained for the pool.
10 aliens get a kill. That's 20 res gained (2 for each alien)
10 aliens get an upgrade. That's 20 res lost (2 for each alien)
marines get an upgrade which affects 10 marines. 20 res lost.
I know there obvious balance problems with that, such as marines keeping upgrades after death, but I'm merely addressing your argument that alien res is important than marine res.
Then realize that not everyone thinks the same way as you do. You think dropping CCs is wrong. Some people agree with you, some don't. Whatever your reason thats the way people think about the issue.
If you have admin rights on a server then you enforce the rules of that server regardless of your feelings about an issue. So if the server policy is that dropping structures is wrong then you can ban people for it. If server policy is that it's ok then suck it up and play through it, or go start your own server and you can make the rules then.
<b>IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION</b>
If you say it is wrong for the comm to drop a structure to draw OC fire then isn't it also wrong to drop an alien chamber to draw turret or marine fire. This seems to be a perfectly valid strategy that is accepted by everyone. Why should marines be held to a double standard.