Why Is Youth Attracted To Socialism?
Jammer
Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
in Discussions
First, PLEASE don't turn this into "Socialism sucks, NO! Capitalism sucks!"
Now then...
I run a little blog, <a href='http://www.anti-anti-flag.com' target='_blank'>Anti-Anti-Flag.com</a> with my ramblings and some specific issues with the lyrics of the radical punk band, Anti-Flag. I've gotten lots of mail from stupid highschoolers and middleschoolers calling me everything from a Facist to a Nazi to a redneck. A also get a lot of mail saying "Hey y do u hate Anti-Flag? I don't know alot about stuff cuz I'm 15, but...".
Now, I'm curious. I used to be a big fan of AF when I was younger, but I've grown up since then. How does it come to pass that, when a kid turns 13, his first political experience is fundamentally against his upbringing?
I imagine its a number of factors.
1. Shock
Some kids want attention so they'll find an idea contray to what has been taught.
2. Rebellion
You're supposed to follow a certain mindset, a certain number of kids will want to go against it. Alternative political ideas + stuff you're not suppsoed to do. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Revolutionary. How are your socks?
3. Naivete
For a certain number of people, they see the injustice in the world and they see that "The Man" hasn't done anything to fix it. They see a counter culture with the right idea ("Solving the world's problems through oppressive statism") and cling to it without really know everything about it.
This isn't intended to call CWAG a stupid kid, but I'm curious he (and other young statists) got involved with the idea when it seems so ridiculous to latch onto.
In my personal experience, I found it was mainly naivete. Radical ideas seemed to make the most sense. "Governments screw things up for the little guy to increase their own power!" Gradually I realized that you could espouse the positive ideas of the radical left with a actual working method, and thus I discovered Conservative ideas. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now then...
I run a little blog, <a href='http://www.anti-anti-flag.com' target='_blank'>Anti-Anti-Flag.com</a> with my ramblings and some specific issues with the lyrics of the radical punk band, Anti-Flag. I've gotten lots of mail from stupid highschoolers and middleschoolers calling me everything from a Facist to a Nazi to a redneck. A also get a lot of mail saying "Hey y do u hate Anti-Flag? I don't know alot about stuff cuz I'm 15, but...".
Now, I'm curious. I used to be a big fan of AF when I was younger, but I've grown up since then. How does it come to pass that, when a kid turns 13, his first political experience is fundamentally against his upbringing?
I imagine its a number of factors.
1. Shock
Some kids want attention so they'll find an idea contray to what has been taught.
2. Rebellion
You're supposed to follow a certain mindset, a certain number of kids will want to go against it. Alternative political ideas + stuff you're not suppsoed to do. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Revolutionary. How are your socks?
3. Naivete
For a certain number of people, they see the injustice in the world and they see that "The Man" hasn't done anything to fix it. They see a counter culture with the right idea ("Solving the world's problems through oppressive statism") and cling to it without really know everything about it.
This isn't intended to call CWAG a stupid kid, but I'm curious he (and other young statists) got involved with the idea when it seems so ridiculous to latch onto.
In my personal experience, I found it was mainly naivete. Radical ideas seemed to make the most sense. "Governments screw things up for the little guy to increase their own power!" Gradually I realized that you could espouse the positive ideas of the radical left with a actual working method, and thus I discovered Conservative ideas. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
My first real political experience was 9/11, now I had kept up to date with current affiars and had a common knowledge of the world, but after 9/11 I really took it to heart. Started reading TIME and Newsweek, watching the news each morning, CNN or FOX depending on how awake I was <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I supose with the way I was introduced to politics my base will always lean to the right. I have never really had those radical ideals, I'm not a "Bush-basher" or an "anti-american" never have been most likely never will be. Socialism never appealed to me and never will, I can't see the upside.
Word up to the right-wingers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
"The Tory party is there to speak for all humanity, for everybody who believes in the elementary principles of conservatism: that if you let people get on with their lives, and develop their potential, you will generate the wealth society will always need to pay for the poorest and neediest."
In addition "It [the end of the cold war] proved what we [the Tories] had argued all along, that socialism was a hopelessly inept system for satisfying human desires."
Which merely goes to show why I am a member of <a href='http://www.conservatives.com' target='_blank'>The Conservative (Tory) Party</a> and opposed to socialism (even though I am as 'wet' a Tory as you are likely to meet)
Also, Jammer for reference, conservative ideals, when discussing idea of conservatism, is spelt with a small 'c', one only uses a large C when talking about the Conservative Party. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is a shame that the left wing is so prevalent - I blame it on the Liberal "I'll say anything to get you to vote for me" Democrat Party
[edit] Nice website by the way, good show, I wish I could do something like that - I shall have to try it sometime <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]
This is a thread discussing why young people are attracted to socialism, not for us right wingers to bash socialism - you've got the wrong end of the stick mate.
This is a thread discussing why young people are attracted to socialism, not for us right wingers to bash socialism - you've got the wrong end of the stick mate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, your first post was nothing but socialism bashing.
See:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To quote Boris John <i>(Conservative MP for Henley and Editor of <a href='http://www.spectator.co.uk/frontpage.php3' target='_blank'>The Spectator)</a></i>
"The Tory party is there to speak for all humanity, for everybody who believes in the elementary principles of conservatism: that if you let people get on with their lives, and develop their potential, you will generate the wealth society will always need to pay for the poorest and neediest."
In addition "It [the end of the cold war] proved what we [the Tories] had argued all along, that socialism was a hopelessly inept system for satisfying human desires."
Which merely goes to show why I am a member of <a href='http://www.conservatives.com' target='_blank'>The Conservative (Tory) Party</a> and opposed to socialism (even though I am as 'wet' a Tory as you are likely to meet)
Also, Jammer for reference, conservative ideals, when discussing idea of conservatism, is spelt with a small 'c', one only uses a large C when talking about the Conservative Party. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is a shame that the left wing is so prevalent - I blame it on the Liberal "I'll say anything to get you to vote for me" Democrat Party
[edit] Nice website by the way, good show, I wish I could do something like that - I shall have to try it sometime <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a thread discussing why young people are attracted to socialism, not for us right wingers to bash socialism - you've got the wrong end of the stick mate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, your first post was nothing but socialism bashing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually my first post was saying why I wasn't a socialist and quoting a Conservative MP. I admit though I did bash the Lib Dems but they say they aren't Socialist but off the tradtional left-right politcal spectrum all together.
This is a thread discussing why young people are attracted to socialism, not for us right wingers to bash socialism - you've got the wrong end of the stick mate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, your first post was nothing but socialism bashing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually my first post was saying why I wasn't a socialist and quoting a Conservative MP. I admit though I did bash the Lib Dems but they say they aren't Socialist but off the tradtional left-right politcal spectrum all together. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that you didn't contribute anything to the discussion other then to say why you thought socialism sucked. And then you bashed liberals for no readily aparent reason.
As for the topic of this thread: Why are you asking what attracts young people to socialism? Why not ask what attracts rich white guys to free market capitalism?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First let me say, that yes there SHOULD be capital punishment for stupidity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only/
This is a thread discussing why young people are attracted to socialism, not for us right wingers to bash socialism - you've got the wrong end of the stick mate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, your first post was nothing but socialism bashing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually my first post was saying why I wasn't a socialist and quoting a Conservative MP. I admit though I did bash the Lib Dems but they say they aren't Socialist but off the tradtional left-right politcal spectrum all together. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that you didn't contribute anything to the discussion other then to say why you thought socialism sucked. And then you bashed liberals for no readily aparent reason.
As for the topic of this thread: Why are you asking what attracts young people to socialism? Why not ask what attracts rich white guys to free market capitalism? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my opening post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To quote Boris John <i>(Conservative MP for Henley and Editor of <a href='http://www.spectator.co.uk/frontpage.php3' target='_blank'>The Spectator)</a></i>
"The Tory party is there to speak for all humanity, for everybody who believes in the elementary principles of conservatism: that if you let people get on with their lives, and develop their potential, you will generate the wealth society will always need to pay for the poorest and neediest."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was to say why I'm not a socialist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In addition "It [the end of the cold war] proved what we [the Tories] had argued all along, that socialism was a hopelessly inept system for satisfying human desires."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another reason why I'm not a socialist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which merely goes to show why I am a member of <a href='http://www.conservatives.com' target='_blank'>The Conservative (Tory) Party</a> and opposed to socialism (even though I am as 'wet' a Tory as you are likely to meet)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To prove I'm not a Socialist
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, Jammer for reference, conservative ideals, when discussing idea of conservatism, is spelt with a small 'c', one only uses a large C when talking about the Conservative Party. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For reference to Jammer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a shame that the left wing is so prevalent - I blame it on the Liberal "I'll say anything to get you to vote for me" Democrat Party<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bashed the Liberal Democrat party, not Liberals themselves, and gave a short reason why (If you wasnt I can give a longer one) and as to why I feel people support the left.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[edit] Nice website by the way, good show, I wish I could do something like that - I shall have to try it sometime <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To praise Jammer.
I did no bashing of socialism or socialists.
As for what attracts rich white guys, or anyone for that matter, to free market capitalism, because it works [edit]or at least works better than socialism.[/edit]
My cousin fought in Gulf War I. I was an avid supporter of the war at the time, and believed whole-heartedly that it was the right thing to do. Still have my American flag shirts, Desert Storm trading cards, Weapons of Desert Storm booklets, ad nauseum. When he got back, my cousin shared his experiences and other soldiers' experiences with me. Some stories I can't even mention. I quickly came to realize that the world is not as simple as I once thought. No one shared these stories on the nightly news, so what's going on? I realized the world is far more complex than I had ever imagined. Then I started to question everything, think for myself, and do my own research. I came to be very skeptical, cynical, and analytical, never accepting what I was told unless I could make sense of the big picture.
Yeah thats pretty much it. I also think that the rise of the right is from people being drawn into a more Federal Europe (or at least further to the left) without really getting that much of a say.
Anyway that is OT.
People are drawn to the left because they see faults in the current capitalist system, and see Socialism as a viable alternative - mainly because, I feel, they haven't seen the faults in the socialist system, and how it would have such a detrimental affect on their lives.
Also with the current influx of "alternative" music proclaiming the evils of society and western governments many of the vast majority of teenagers who succumb to the desire of rebellion turn to socialism because it is the only other system of government that appears to work.
They see a problem.
They identify the problem.
They devise an incredibly unrealistic, impractical, stupid solution that would never work (Let's convert to communism or socialism or anarchy, something like that).
They cling to this ideal like it's a security blanket and lash out at anyone who thinks otherwise.
Sometimes, they keep analyzing the flaws and thinking about what else COULD be wrong so much that they start to believe that it IS wrong.
Eventually they start making websites about how american news if full of nothing but lies and propoganda to fill your brain with flag-waving happy days.
So rather then fix the problem realistically, they'd rather just find something to whine about just for the sake of whining.
as i've said SO many times before... if you think about it, the issue has been sollllved.
as i've said SO many times before... if you think about it, the issue has been sollllved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that sorta confused me, but I think I see what you're saying: Capitalism is about making money, and kids nowadays don't see the value in being <b>rich</b> so they whine that we should share with Joe Hobo who'se been living off welfare for years?
"Democracy is indispensible to socialism" -V.I. Lenin
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->as i've said SO many times before... if you think about it, the issue has been sollllved. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You solved it alright with your capitalist armies, didn't u ever hear about the Russian Civil War and the rise of Stalin?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Capitalism is about making money, and kids nowadays don't see the value in being rich so they whine that we should share with Joe Hobo who'se been living off welfare for years? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
here u go with the welfare ****. the vast majority of workers work hard and get their work exploited by their bosses. welfare is a means of helping those that get cut off of society; if you invent a new machine that makes their jobs meaningless, they get laid off. they don't HAVE jobs, so you'd BETTER give them welfare. and if you don't, they turn to crime, or become drug addicts or hobos. some capitalists like Hitler even decided to just kill them to keep the streets clean. welfare helps everyone.
if kids aren't materialist machines: if they are willing to take a stand for their ideals, and to hell with getting rich, beause this is what they stand for, then maybe kids are the good ones here, and you're just a bunch of sellouts! ****
or somthing like that...
I mean, yeah I can definatly say from where I stand at 21, I was ignorant and full of hope as a teen, now I accept that I know so little.. also that the world sucks and theres nothing anyone can do about it... *weeps*
"Democracy is indispensible to socialism" -V.I. Lenin
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes and then after the October Revolution when they held democractic elections and the communists didn't gain enough seats to government he closed it down the next day.
Well, isn't that the problem with ANY form of organized government? Idiots who "f up the whole thing?"
Call it moderate socialism or moderate capitalism, I just like good progress to be made. The communists usually get dragged through the political sewers usually just by association. But I suppose that anyone willing to label themselves a communist, considering their history, deserves it. Even the idea of communism sounds a bit extreme. I think it is better to focus on the details of progress, like having a fine balance between unions and companies and keeping jobs here in America instead of letting them go abroad. Communists focus too much on some blurry image of utopia. But sometimes we need controlled extremists like Socialists to get the ball rolling...sometimes.
Mostly on the subject, I'm not sure if I can really label myself a conservative or a liberal. I would say that I am a moderate. I'm only voting for a Democrat in this upcoming election if it's Howard Dean. Otherwise, I'm abstaining from the process. If Wesley Clark wins the primary, I am definitely casting my support for Bush. I hate that guy.
<a href='http://www.salon.com/books/int/2003/10/30/weinstein/index_np.html' target='_blank'>http://www.salon.com/books/int/2003/10/30/...n/index_np.html</a> - Here is a good little discussion with James Weinstein about the Left. A guy who is very truthful about who he is and what he belongs to (or belonged to).
No, we can do something about it.
Actually, the war would not be legally justified had WMD been found. There was so resolution that granted the go for a military conflict. The missle charge, in effect, makes no difference.
holy rewriting of history batman. the USSR, despite being run by bureaucrats who contradicted Marxism with their actions, became an industrial superpower with 0% unemployment; eradicated illiteracy and put such a lid on crime that even under Stalin, the nation had an incarceration rate <i>lower than that of the USA today</i>.
and it's in the dumps now, and getting worse every day. the Communist Party is a lame mess, but it still controls like 30% of parliament.
the rest of the people are afraid to vote different because they will get gunned down in the street by the mafia.. which was nonexistent in the USSR days. poverty has increased 24 times among the former Soviet populations
so the facts make it clear Stalinism was way better for the USSR! you say that it's great that the former USSR has "opened up" to trade with the west. well well well, some other examples of "opening up to the west" are when the native americans opened up to columbus, when the chinese and indians opened up to the British.
<i>opening up to trade is a fancy word for selling your country to the imperialists.</i>
now u have the rise of Stalin. how did he get in power anyway? how did that "1 man f it all up"? after all, Communism is about giving the power back to the people, not giving it to one man.
well you remember in all the bloodshed following the French Revolution, when they got invaded by like 10 countries, and in all the chaos, Napoleon took over?
it was kinda like that. the USSR got invaded by 16 countries from 1917-1921. 7.5 million people died, 200 of them were americans fighting in siberia. in all the chaos, Stalin took over. And like Napoleon was not a defender of freedom, Stalin was not a communist either.
the USSR had been on the path to rebuilding from WWI, and giving the world an example of successful socialist revolution. but history has proven that socialism and capitalism can't coexist on the same planet.
the USSR, until stalin, planned to fund and aid the world revolution, because the flag of the russian workers was the flag of their brothers and sisters around the world. so you can't blame the capitalists for attacking! if they hadn't attacked, they'd have been destroyed.
this is not to say that Stalin was their friend. having Stalin on the borders was like having another capitalist country.. but a strong one: one thing Stalin did was keep the imperialists out. this got the Stalinists a lot of popularity in the oppressed nations, and thus nationalist revolutions broke out in China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. under the "Communist" flag which came to be a nationalist-bourgeois flag.
i wont defend Stalin, he was a traitor to the revolution. but i will defend the USSR against imperialism anyday. it wasn't communist, but it kept those greedy sons of ****' hands off of the third world for a while