Bad Commanding Or Bad Marines?
ScrawnyJohnny
Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19130Members
Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19130Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Regardless, it's always the comm's fault</div>/rant
Why is it that no matter how bad the marines aim, or how many rambos are on a team or how many times marines won't follow orders that when the team loses, it's the commander's fault?
It is incredibly discouraging.
I just finished a game where I did all the good things...got my marines armor early so they would die as much(or so I hoped), capped some res and gave orders to defend(which were ignored), I even managed (somehow) to get 6 marines decked out with ha/shotties/hmgs and a gl and they lost to some 2-hive skulks and a fade.
And yet I am the 'nub'. *sigh*
I think I hate commanding.
My new strategy: Join Aliens. :(
Why is it that no matter how bad the marines aim, or how many rambos are on a team or how many times marines won't follow orders that when the team loses, it's the commander's fault?
It is incredibly discouraging.
I just finished a game where I did all the good things...got my marines armor early so they would die as much(or so I hoped), capped some res and gave orders to defend(which were ignored), I even managed (somehow) to get 6 marines decked out with ha/shotties/hmgs and a gl and they lost to some 2-hive skulks and a fade.
And yet I am the 'nub'. *sigh*
I think I hate commanding.
My new strategy: Join Aliens. :(
Comments
2) the commander is the mind of the marine force (or at least he should be). Hence, he is the natural target for crappy marines to blame when they get torn apart by the kharra.
The comms main objektive is to think not to kill aliens.
So ask ur rines what they need to kill this gorg and if they repley with ha grenni welder hmg Wu3 Au3 motion, u know whos the nap.
The best comms arent able to hold an area with tf and pg if the team dont react, u can support ur marines best and aliens will win this area, but then u need to think what area is best and easyst to kill for ur rines, say all u know and support
i tried to win some games with some guys who agreed in getting jp hmg grenni and i told them wp and said go to hive kill it. 30 sec later they flied in a vent and locked a the textures. i got myself jp shotti started and arrieved in 14 sec a hive shooted, i was first a hive, and a silly onos wasted my base a this moment.---> u cant fight for ur team, u cant do their job
if u want some tips u can watch my commanding style a lil bit ? just search my name ?
This kind of mind set is what cause the commander to become very unpopular toward the end of 1.04. If you don't want this to happen to you, just do what I did. Find a good server and become a regular there. Be nice to the other people and over time the other regulars will listen to you.
Secondly, did you sit on your backside and just tech up on 3 nodes?
If the answer to these questions is yes, then it WAS your fault. Welders keep HA alive. Marines CANNOT AFFORD TO BE COMPLACENT. Tech rushing only works if you keep pressure on the aliens. Sitting on your bum waiting for HA means the aliens can ALL hoard safely. And that means your HA will be facing Onos, Lerk umbra, and skilled fades. If they're at 2 hives, then stomp and skulks alone can destroy your HA train.
Sometimes it IS the marines fault, but its generally a flawed move on the commander's part - I've seen too many games where the comm has insisted on a "wait for HA" defensive strat only to get destroyed by hoarder aliens. And rather than accept their strat failed, they rant about their "poor team". Mmm.
Secondly, did you sit on your backside and just tech up on 3 nodes?
If the answer to these questions is yes, then it WAS your fault. Welders keep HA alive. Marines CANNOT AFFORD TO BE COMPLACENT. Tech rushing only works if you keep pressure on the aliens. Sitting on your bum waiting for HA means the aliens can ALL hoard safely. And that means your HA will be facing Onos, Lerk umbra, and skilled fades. If they're at 2 hives, then stomp and skulks alone can destroy your HA train.
Sometimes it IS the marines fault, but its generally a flawed move on the commander's part - I've seen too many games where the comm has insisted on a "wait for HA" defensive strat only to get destroyed by hoarder aliens. And rather than accept their strat failed, they rant about their "poor team". Mmm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This says it all for most commanders these days. Commanders need to learn that it's a faster paced game now in NS 2.0, 30 minutes sitting there teching will lose the game for the marines.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> MARINES HAVE TO BE AGGRESSIVE <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
keep the aliens defending the 1st hive and trying to get a second. sitting back and defending what you have while you tech up will have you fighting against 2 hive fades!!! followed very soon by onos.
So to be a good comm you have to tech WHILE you attack, attack and attack the aliens and if you get the chance to finish the aliens off go for it...you can only lose <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
uhh no one here saw the game so please dont make a thread about a game we didn't see...
you are probably just seeking sympathy or back-up because you are feeling bad people cussed you out
either ignore them, or learn to play better. If you truly think it was not your fault(and you are 100% sure... i know alot of certain "people" (starts with n and ends with b) that think they are good comms but they aren't... then just ignore them. Dont make a thread in which people have to be biased to give you an answer that you want.
<3
I agree with what n33b said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you are probably just seeking sympathy or back-up because you are feeling bad people cussed you out
either ignore them, or learn to play better. If you truly think it was not your fault(and you are 100% sure... i know alot of certain "people" (starts with n and ends with b) that think they are good comms but they aren't... then just ignore them. Dont make a thread in which people have to be biased to give you an answer that you want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A (or two) properly upgraded (armor 1 at least and weap 2) light armored marine can kill a fade with enought skill and medspam. A single marine with just armor upgrades can kill a fade with a shotgun and medspam. There is no reason heavy marines shouldn't be able to kill a fade unless 1)The fade is insanly good 2)Your marines can't aim 3)there was no ammo/med support from commander. Lets not even talk about welding, a single ha/shotty marine can kill a handfull of skulks and drive away a fade just by himself with a little commander support. If case 1 and 2 was the case, then you really can't do anything about it, but if it was case 3 then you're the one at fault.
A (or two) properly upgraded (armor 1 at least and weap 2) light armored marine can kill a fade with enought skill and medspam. A single marine with just armor upgrades can kill a fade with a shotgun and medspam. There is no reason heavy marines shouldn't be able to kill a fade unless 1)The fade is insanly good 2)Your marines can't aim 3)there was no ammo/med support from commander. Lets not even talk about welding, a single ha/shotty marine can kill a handfull of skulks and drive away a fade just by himself with a little commander support. If case 1 and 2 was the case, then you really can't do anything about it, but if it was case 3 then you're the one at fault. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You dont kill fades,unless they are dumb or its a fluke.Blink owns all.
A (or two) properly upgraded (armor 1 at least and weap 2) light armored marine can kill a fade with enought skill and medspam. A single marine with just armor upgrades can kill a fade with a shotgun and medspam. There is no reason heavy marines shouldn't be able to kill a fade unless 1)The fade is insanly good 2)Your marines can't aim 3)there was no ammo/med support from commander. Lets not even talk about welding, a single ha/shotty marine can kill a handfull of skulks and drive away a fade just by himself with a little commander support. If case 1 and 2 was the case, then you really can't do anything about it, but if it was case 3 then you're the one at fault. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You dont kill fades,unless they are dumb or its a fluke.Blink owns all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'm gonna have to agree. The only times I see *good* Fades die regularily are against *groups* of HA's with HMG or Shotguns, or a group of LA's with shotguns who manage to pull something off like block or trap him (rare). Unless they get very unlucky, like lag out when retreating or so, good fades almost never die.
Anyway, yeah, the COM tends to get the blame, and yes, it is not always called for. I've seen COM's blamed when there was absolutely nothing wrong with his game, the Marines just.. sucked! I've seen Marine unable to go two steps out of spawn without being munched, frag ratios of 1:10, turn around and blame the COM... like he's supposed to jump out of the chair and physically point the rines guns at the skulks. Then again, I see COM's play some really awful strats and then blame the Marines for failing. So at least the stupidity swings both ways <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The counter to this is <b>not shooting at blinking Fades</b>. At some point Fades have to stop to hit you/someone else. You can then shoot them then, sure they won't stop long enough for you to kill them but you can hurt them enough so they have to run away and heal.
Many Comm's do need to realise Marines need to attack aswell, but if your marines don't have that mindset aswell then it's an uphill stuggle for the comm.
Anyway, this topic is about placing blame. =)
Most comms I meet are in the ok to good range. So when something goes wrong its usually because the marines are not following directions. Not to say comms are blameless. Throwing your marines against an OC wall when you have another equally viable route is pretty silly. But when things go wrong, its usually because marines are either not following orders or not killing things they should.
And, as a general appeal, don't hop in the chair without a functioning mic. The difference between an ok and a good comm usually comes down to voice chat. You can get a decent mic at BestBuy for like five bucks, so you really have no excuse.
We were playing on LGSO, I was comm, playing on Ns_Hera, and this is what we had:
W3/A3
Motion Tracking
Upgraded HA and JP
Equipment and guns for everyone
400 res left in the pool
RTs at Archiving, Marine Start, Cargo, Upper Processing, Lower Processing, Hera, Holoroom (2x).
Archiving and DCD hives locked down.
This is what the aliens had:
Ventilation hive.
Ventilation node
Maintenance node (it was lamed up so bad by this point we couldn't touch it.)
I had gotten this far originally starting in a small NS game, like 3v3 (you know, those kinds that Marines always lose because Aliens expand too fast?) and had successfully halted all attempts at Alien expansion.
It was around this point that [CWAIC]MercilessPrick joined and was like, 'Man, I gotta join when the aliens are completely ****ed.'
Yet my marines, while good at occasionally following a way point and sticking around long enough to build an RT, began to show their inadequacies. Fully equipped HA/HMG could not, for the life of them (literally) take down 1 hive aliens limited to skulks and gorges. At one point, [CWAIC]MercilessPrick took down 3 HA marines in less than a minute because 1) They were horrible aim and 2) They refused to weld each other. In fact, they were unable (as fully upgraded marines) to take down that one hive for so long that I began to get tired, and the aliens took over DCD. So I sent units to DCD (which all got slaughtered) -- the only way I could kill it was by sieging it! So I sieged it, but in that time the aliens had taken down archiving -- so I sieged Ventilation (knowing my marines were so incompetent as to not be able to shoot anything within the vicinity of a hive).
The aliens had bought themselves enough time for one of them to go Onos (I suppose eating an endless supply of HA probably helped them get the res, too) and if you thought my fully upgraded marines were incapable of killing skulks, there was no chance they could kill that Onos. My RTs fell, and just a little while later we lost the game.
At least I didn't receive blame for losing the game -- as soon as the game ended MercilessPrick just said over voicechat, 'It's okay.. sometimes the marines are just retards.'
Fun!
Basically the only reason the marines are at fault, is not knowing locations on the map, ie "Foreboding Antechamber", and slightly not being able to aim, but even good players still die in easy situations now and then.
I was the comm, and I kept the alien team at 1 res node pretty much the entire time.
The problem was, one of the aliens was LaC Devirginizer, and he didn't *need res*! As a skulk, he singlehandedly won the game, completely unupgraded.
I sent out marines with shotguns, he ate them.
I sent out marines with HMGs, GLs, Shotguns... he ate them.
I gave them motion tracking, he ate them.
I gave them L3 weapons and armor, he ate them.
And all as an *unupgraded* skulk.
Sure, we had all the res nodes on the map. Sure, he had no res, and I could give my marines anything they wanted. It didn't matter because he was so good!
So would you blame that on bad comming? I wouldn't.. I wouldn't even blame it on bad marine-ing... I blame it on one really awesome alien that didn't need any upgrades to take down upgraded marines. :-p
And how exactly is it his fault. Does the hive magically do something. Unless its the hive room then no it's not the commander's fault. If he sends you to an emtpy hive room and marines die. Then whose fault is it? He sends you in there with walls of lame... who fault is it? It depends on if the strategy is a sound one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically the only reason the marines are at fault, is not knowing locations on the map, ie "Foreboding Antechamber", and slightly not being able to aim, but even good players still die in easy situations now and then. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Slightly"? I'm thinking you're the one that's been putting down all the potential comms out there.
Where are you getting this "putting down all the potential comms out there?" maybe you should try to clarify...
"He sends you in there with walls of lame... who fault is it?"
Lol. Should I answer for you, or wait until you realize you answered your own question?
That is true. But what I meant to say is more so to drive away than kill. Like this guys said <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sure a good Fade is very difficult to kill but they are not hard to drive away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure its hard to kill a fade as a light marine shotgun, but if there are medpacks on the floor everywhere, the fade would have to repeat his process several times. More attempts leads to more chance for mistake (due to sudden lost of stamina, or a delay in weapon change). It only takes two lucky shotgun shells to kill a regening fade. And if it was a heavy marine, he doesn't even need that many health packs (at least initially) to drive the fade away. Of course if you assume the fade is good, you have to assume the marines aren't made of poo either, its only fair.
I don't mind. =) 1 good marine can take 2 skulks on average. Three men can take care of that easy. And if they are running in a pack its that much easier to kill them. Besides, you need to actually be on the side of the map with the hive sometime during the game. Can't be cowering on the far side forever you know. It's actually best to start the game from here. At that point of the game skulks are at their weakest (no upgrades) and most alien RTs are put up on the hive side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where are you getting this "putting down all the potential comms out there?" maybe you should try to clarify...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because your post states that most marine losses are the commander's fault. And then I made an assumption from that statement.
EDIT: (THE STATEMENT BY NORML E OMG): "Well IMO, more often than not, it IS the commanders fault."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"He sends you in there with walls of lame... who fault is it?"
Lol. Should I answer for you, or wait until you realize you answered your own question? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know the answer to that question it's wether you realized my point or not. ;p
As for a commander sending his team into a room full of lame, it IS his fault. If he says go, we GO, thats what we do. Obvously a good commander would know what is in the room before he sends us, as in observatory scans... if it was bad enough he would either siege, or bypass that area for now. Bad commander sends you in with no idea, realizes his mistake (or not) and tells you to fall back. Most marines would know the commander is a fool and fallback anyway, in which case its still his fault half of the team is severely damaged now.
Its not always the comm's fault that the marines lose....