Affirmative Action

SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
I know we've had topics about AA in the past. But we have a much different and varied Discussion's group now.

So the question for debate is :

Affirmative Action, is it constitutional ? Is it fair ? And why do we need it ?

As MonsE would say...

Discuss.

Comments

  • Lord_Fanny-MacHLord_Fanny-MacH Join Date: 2003-10-28 Member: 22072Members
    It's like giving a bandaid to someone with massive head trauma.
  • NiddingNidding Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9439Members, Constellation
    Uhm.. what is affarmative action?
  • GoPeDeRiCkGoPeDeRiCk Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14742Members
    maybe u should post a little more info... instead of "hey, war. talk about it."
  • MelatoninMelatonin Babbler Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14551Members, Constellation
    <a href='http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=affirmative+action' target='_blank'>mother of all that is 'knowledge'</a>

    ok, while its not all that.. its a great place to start <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • MenixMenix Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20828Members
    There is no need for affirmative action, all it does is skew personal rights towards minorities.
  • LukinLukin Join Date: 2003-08-23 Member: 20098Members
    I agree with Menix. And I am technically a minority. I am hispanic but I think I should be admitted into a college for my grades and not my race.
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe u should post a little more info... instead of "hey, war. talk about it." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Arg...

    Affirmative Action is a policy which purpose is meant to favor minorities in the workplace and in schools.

    Seriously guys, if you honestly don't know what it is, look it up, don't open your mouth because you're going to look pretty ... meh, you know what I mean.
  • GoPeDeRiCkGoPeDeRiCk Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14742Members
    ompf! heh maybe i should be more specific too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I meant do you have an article or something relating to this or whatever..

    and i disagree of course. i'm white! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Um... How about Regents of California University v. Bakke ?
  • Doug_the_HeadDoug_the_Head Join Date: 2003-03-26 Member: 14909Members
    I think AA is a bad thing, and not just because I'm a white protestant male. I think it means that we expect less of minorities, and if i were black, latino, asian, whatever, I would be insulted.
  • DubbilexDubbilex Chump Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9799Members
    I can't say that it's a bad thing or a good thing - there's simply no right answer <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

    On the one hand, whitey has always been a fatheaded jerk to other cultures. However, on the other hand, there is no moral justification that I can fathom to allow say, an Student of Asian descent with a 2.5 GPA to get into a private school over for example, a caucasian with a 4.0 GPA. Despite the fact that us white folks <b>do</b> indeed deserve whatever's thrown at us, I just can't get past the fact that this is just a little...not right.

    Yes, perhaps it might be the right thing to do now, to atone for our ancestors' iniquities. However, I also feel that it is one of the major factors in life that perpetuates racism, segregation, and bigotry.

    Thus, I propose that if all people the world around could get rid of their prejudices, such awkward things as Affirmative action would never become concieved. If we ould somehow live together, regardless of ethnicity, there would be no need for such things. Is togetherness really that foreign a concept to human dignity?

    In conclusion, I blame whitey. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    dis·crim·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nshn)
    n.
    The act of discriminating.
    The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
    Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

    <a href='http://www.dictionary.com' target='_blank'>Dictionary.com</a>

    According to this definition, affirmitive action fits the bill. How you might say? If two people are trying to get a job and they are equally qualified, one being a minority should not be an edge. If you are making "consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit," you are discriminating. Hiring the minority over the other is giving him special treatment which has nothing to do with his personality.

    Even if it is positive, for the other, it is the absence of something positive, which is negative in fact. So in a way, you are prejudicing against the majority by giving minority affirmitive action. NOBODY should have an edge for any reason except that they are qualified enough to have an edge.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited November 2003
    <a href='http://caag.state.ca.us/cjsc/publications/candd/cd01/tabs/cd0131.pdf' target='_blank'>List of felonies in 2001 by ethnic group</a>

    You would not believe how much digging I had to do to find that.

    A stereotype isn't a lie, it's a generalization based on facts. According to this chart, I think I'd rather hire a black female to babysit my children then a hispanic male. However, I might want to check home security and lock things up, she's twice as likely to commit a theft as I am. A stereotype? Ya. Fact? Ya.


    Die affirmitive, action, and burn in hell...


    EDIT: <a href='http://caag.state.ca.us/cjsc/publications/candd/cd97/tabs/cd97tb33.pdf' target='_blank'>This one's older, but gives you more information. Rather humerous too... in '97, a black kid less then 10 years old kidnapped someone... heh...</a>
  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Nov 2 2003, 08:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Nov 2 2003, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Affirmative Action is a policy which purpose is meant to favor minorities in the workplace and in schools. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Affirmative Action is a fancy term for rascism then?
  • tbZBeAsttbZBeAst Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12755Members
    Basically.

    Although it tries to address discimination, it does it through discrimination. The term "positive discrimination" was dropped in favour of "affirmative action" to put a nice rosy glow on it. Its discrimination by another name. Choose on the basis of merit.
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--[tbZ]BeAst+Nov 5 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([tbZ]BeAst @ Nov 5 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Basically.

    Although it tries to address discimination, it does it through discrimination. The term "positive discrimination" was dropped in favour of "affirmative action" to put a nice rosy glow on it. Its discrimination by another name. Choose on the basis of merit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I couldn't agree more.
  • Spyder_MonkeySpyder_Monkey Vampire-Ninja-Monkey Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 8Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Just to throw a monkey-wrench into the works (bad pun)...

    The most compelling argument I've ever heard was from an African-American woman I work with. While I agree that minorities should not be accepted into a college because simply, they are minorities, there are some cases, mostly in the south, where the minorities are not given the same oppurtunities towards education that caucasians are. Sure, schools are not segregated any longer, but that doesn't mean that racial discrimination isn't happening, and that it is not impacting the lives, education and future of minority children in this country.

    My .02
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    I've heard that argument before, Spyder, and it has some validity. My beef, though, is that the fix should be at the lower levels of the educational system, where the problem starts, not at the higher levels. Pushing minorities into schools they haven't been adequately prepared for doesn't fix anything - far better to attack the root of the problem so they WILL be prepared, and can get in (and succeed) purely on merit.

    What it always comes down to for me is this: do you want your surgeon to have gotten thru med school because he/she was being given "affirmative action" to compensate for bad test scores that may or may not have been due to lack of opportunities early in life? Hell no - you want your surgeon to be someone that has proven him/herself qualified to perform this surgery, regardless of prior circumstances.
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    edited November 2003
    I know that some scholarships are based upon your family's income. No, not your income, your family's income. In other words, if you come from a poorer family, somehow you have earned a scholarship more than the guy with a 4.0 average coming from a middle-high class. While it isn't affirmitive action, it is like it in the way that while meant to help people, inadvertantly hurts others in such a way that it is entirely unrelated to if you are qualified or not.
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    There's a big difference between need-based financial aid and need-based admissions policies, Hawkeye. Children of millionaires don't need their tuition paid for by the school.
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    edited November 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Nov 5 2003, 09:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Nov 5 2003, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's a big difference between need-based financial aid and need-based admissions policies, Hawkeye.  Children of millionaires don't need their tuition paid for by the school. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And since when has the less qualified ever deserved more than the more qualified, Samwise?

    The moment you reward for reasons other than them being qualified enough is the moment when discrimination in a new form occurs.
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Nov 5 2003, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Nov 5 2003, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And since when has the less qualified ever deserved more than the more qualified, Samwise?

    The moment you reward for reasons other than them being qualified enough is the moment when discrimination in a new form occurs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What determines "qualification" for financial aid if not need?

    Qualification for admission into a school should arguably be based upon the prospective student's ability to perform well at that school. Why? Because the purpose of the admission process is to admit students into a school so they can study there.

    What's the purpose of financial aid? It's to allow qualified students to study at schools they might not have been able to otherwise afford. I can therefore think of no reason that financial aid should not be at least partially need-based. Giving financial aid to a millionaire is like accepting admissions applications from alumni.
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    I'll also note that even though I tend to be against most implementations of affirmative action, "affirmative action" does not necessarily mean favoring one group at the expense of another. It's just that travesties like racial quota systems in admissions/hiring are the most infamous (and most memorable) types of affirmative action.
Sign In or Register to comment.