Moving Up
Morden
Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14045Members
Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14045Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This just in: Reason for why clan scene is dying discovered. New teams can't form because the moment they step outside the PUG environment it's a harsh world. You can improve to the point where you're tying mid level teams, but you want to improve by challenging the best, the top 10 and vet clans. This is the worst experience in the world for most new clans. Not because vet clans can take you to school without even employing a serious strategy, it's because they're usually not very nice about it. And by not nice I mean after a twenty-minute game where your team tries its darndest to win you've got six guys in the spawn queue and five marines sitting in your hive just standing there shooting skulks as they spawn one by one. Then they drop an armory and mine the entire floor of your hive, and giggle amongst themselves like little school girls, then they drop a lone siege turret so they can siege you naked hive slooooooowly. This isn't exactly encouraging. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to *******, please be very careful with your "examples." That scenario was remarkably similar to the scrimmage you just had with **, only we never dropped a siege cannon. I won't waste time in justifying our actions, <b>but realize that we did to you what we would do to any clan</b>, no matter their skill level. Keep on topic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This topic is another continuation of the "Clans Dying: Another Thought" thread, though i felt it didnt' belong under the revived "Exploitable Cvars" post.
This brings back horrible memories of our early attempts to play the big clans. One day one of the top ten clans comes into our channel and asks for a scrim. We see who is in the channel and get a couple guys together who are online.
Fast forward 20 minutes later, and you see us getting spawn camped in Waste Handling for upwards of 5 minutes while the other team builds their entire base in our hive. This was far from encouraging.. I'd describe it more as demoralizing.
Now.... i realize that the only way to get better is to play more experienced clans. How else would you learn to adapt to an opponent that is more skilled? But does what i described above really need to happen? I understand that the big clans are talented, and put a lot of time and dedication in to Natural-Selection, but is the humiliation of less skilled clans required?
People keep mentioning their desire for existing clans to enter the competative scene, but this seems to be an over-looked occurence. People may argue it has always happened, and that it needs to happen for clans to improve... that its a right of passage so to speak.... but i see it as nothing more than discouraging.
Please understand that it is not the high level of competition i'm arguing against. The more skilled the better. Getting "owned" is fine in my books as long as I can take something away from it. Its the conduct which concerns me. Perhaps some re-evaluation is in order.
I was also gonna mention HLTV spectator chat-logs.. but thats another topic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to *******, please be very careful with your "examples." That scenario was remarkably similar to the scrimmage you just had with **, only we never dropped a siege cannon. I won't waste time in justifying our actions, <b>but realize that we did to you what we would do to any clan</b>, no matter their skill level. Keep on topic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This topic is another continuation of the "Clans Dying: Another Thought" thread, though i felt it didnt' belong under the revived "Exploitable Cvars" post.
This brings back horrible memories of our early attempts to play the big clans. One day one of the top ten clans comes into our channel and asks for a scrim. We see who is in the channel and get a couple guys together who are online.
Fast forward 20 minutes later, and you see us getting spawn camped in Waste Handling for upwards of 5 minutes while the other team builds their entire base in our hive. This was far from encouraging.. I'd describe it more as demoralizing.
Now.... i realize that the only way to get better is to play more experienced clans. How else would you learn to adapt to an opponent that is more skilled? But does what i described above really need to happen? I understand that the big clans are talented, and put a lot of time and dedication in to Natural-Selection, but is the humiliation of less skilled clans required?
People keep mentioning their desire for existing clans to enter the competative scene, but this seems to be an over-looked occurence. People may argue it has always happened, and that it needs to happen for clans to improve... that its a right of passage so to speak.... but i see it as nothing more than discouraging.
Please understand that it is not the high level of competition i'm arguing against. The more skilled the better. Getting "owned" is fine in my books as long as I can take something away from it. Its the conduct which concerns me. Perhaps some re-evaluation is in order.
I was also gonna mention HLTV spectator chat-logs.. but thats another topic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Pub for Life!
I'll take the disorganisation of a pub over the lameness of being ridiculed by top clans any day. Some people play solely for fun. Playing in a league where the same tired strats get used all the time (because this is how you win fastest) is not fun. At least not to me.
I find that I am not very good at attacking, I lack alot of skill when it comes to using a Onos or Fade and so I try to stay supportive. Most times I'll gorge the whole game.
Combat has only shown me my lack of skill even more.
The gorge isn't a great unit in combat and thus forces you to try to adapt to use new forms (fades, Onoi,). This increases your skills very fast I found.
Due to my lack of skills I don't want to join a caln, I have more fun playing Pubs where I can Own some times due to the small skills I do have.
Until we see people with more skills, you wont see more Clans, why be in a clan when you will just be schooled by the top clans and be forced to play mid clans. I have a strong feeling that Combat will help people get skills faster, because its more fast paced and more strat and team work.
Once 2.1 is out, I have a feeling that the basic people like me will get alot more skills and the mid level clans will work as a team better and become much better, soon the sisutation stated above will become less and less frequent.
2.1 will see a rise in skilled players due to things like combat. Clans will get better and then you will find that being owned by the top tenners will happen less and less. I am hoping that with enough play time in combat my skills will become better and I will be a stronger player. Trust me COmbat does help you learn to play better.
Pub for Life!
I'll take the disorganisation of a pub over the lameness of being ridiculed by top clans any day. Some people play solely for fun. Playing in a league where the same tired strats get used all the time (because this is how you win fastest) is not fun. At least not to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing a game where you rely on teammtes to win, and you don't know any of them is not fun to me.
Most of the time I am better then the other players on my team, and quite frankly it sucks to play with a disorganized team.
I prefer clanplay with high competition over random pub play.
OMG, I seriously had no idea the US clan scene was this bad.
You'd <i>never</i> see anything like this in the Aussie Clan scene, and although there is a noticeable and defined gap between the top tier competition, when top clans play newer clans the top clan is generally very supportive and offers what suggestions and feedback they can.
More importantly, they get the game over quickly and would never subject a team to this BS.
It really troubles me that US clans would do this, and I spose it just goes to show the immaturity and lack of compassion that's had by the top tier competition.
Then again, you could look on the bright side, all of the people who do this are probably highly disagreeable people in really life, pasty nerds with no life and far too much invested in NS. I spose it's the most frustrating thing about the online world. People with few social skills or much that's worth while find the only way they can get their kicks is to "pwn n00bies". Just have faith that you're better than them in many more respects than being able to move a mouse around a screen.
Anyways, keep trying, NS needs more clans!
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, winning in those conditions I find significantly more rewarding than any clan match ever was. My post was not directed at anyone at all, just an observation based on my several years of clan play experience. Top clans fade out and memebers of those clans join up with other faded top clans. The gap widens between experienced clans and new clans, "Top Clans" find fewer and fewer challenges and the league stagnates into "who is going to get beat by [this clan] this week?". I guess it's nobody's fault, but it would be better for the clan scene as a whole if the talent was spread around. This brings us back to the original post. When things like that happen, no one wants to be on the recieving end of it, so they only form another top clan with recycled members of other top clans. It's a vicious cycle.
That said, the most rewarding thing in NS is comming a group of people to a victory when it's not a pushover... best... thing... ever <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I prefer clanplay with high competition over random pub play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is another common misconception. Out of all the people who play NS, how many people actually "random pub"? Most people play on the same server all the time, and although it is a public server, the same people are always there. Public play isn't always the disorganised mess most clan players make it out be. I pub with my clan mates and it is a hell of a lot of fun. I know pretty much every name on the server i play on, and i can rely on them. And i'd like to say i'm by no means a random pub NSplayer. I've been around since 1.0 and so have my clanmates.
Now... i also like scrimming. There's nothing like it. But i don't think i'm in the only clan that has been discouraged from playing top tier teams.
As for the clan scene dying, it slowly is, but it boggles my mind how peolpe can enjoy pubs more then scrims/pugs after playing in one.
You must understand that 99% of the top clans play to win. They also play to defeat their enemy in the most humiliating way possible because beating people in this manner gives them a high. They do not care about rules, regulations, or what or who the other team is. They must win at any cost. The only reason why everyone doesn't cheat in the clan scene is because (suprise) it's not legal. I'm sure if any given tourny made hacking legal, 100% of the best clans would use the hacks. As far as I can tell, there is no thing as an honorable clan - which is why I rather dislike them. Any members of a top ranked clan that are not like this are free to speak up and correct me for being sterotypical, but I believe what I say is true.
As far as I can tell, there is no thing as an honorable clan - which is why I rather dislike them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree, most of the clans only have the "golden rule" is because haxing is not allowed in the tourny, as for your sterotype, |-RAF-| is not like that, (were a DoD clan, but im working on the NS division being up (3rd in command)) we are your "honerable Clan" and i have been flamed many times because of this (for destroying the ip when everyone wanted to eat ppl, but this only happned because i wasent on freaks <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) i only hope that we wont turn into the **** that flamed me for destroying the ip's
You must understand that 99% of the top clans play to win. They also play to defeat their enemy in the most humiliating way possible because beating people in this manner gives them a high. They do not care about rules, regulations, or what or who the other team is. They must win at any cost. The only reason why everyone doesn't cheat in the clan scene is because (suprise) it's not legal. I'm sure if any given tourny made hacking legal, 100% of the best clans would use the hacks. As far as I can tell, there is no thing as an honorable clan - which is why I rather dislike them. Any members of a top ranked clan that are not like this are free to speak up and correct me for being sterotypical, but I believe what I say is true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay... lets all get back to reality.
#1. What the hell are you talking about?
Placing mines in a hive while letting the seige cannons do all the work. This is dishonerble, because... you guys said so?
No. There is nothing wrong with this AT ALL. It's clearly within the playing rules. You have to build everything up, waste of a ton of res, and spend time placing mines as well as building siege cannons.
While I admit it is a tad humilating... I don't think it's something that would cause a clan to breakup. If anything, it would want to make them get better and kick the crap outta the other clan.
It's just like in any game where a team dominates the other, and does silly things like score 10000 runs in one inning of baseball, tons of goals in soccer, whatever. It exists in all competetions, and it also exists in pub play.
Don't just slander the clans guys, you are talking about human nature ffs.
As for pubs i agree, they arent a whole pile of motely noobs, we came back from a match where i was the only cla nmember on aliens and there were about 7 clan members on the other team, all HA. We came back from 2 hives to one to none, put cargo back up and proceeded to kill all of their HA's slowly with our remaining cloaked onos <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
From there we seiged equilibrium despite their best efforts to turtle and yeah, i motly bunch of randoms pulled through to grip victory from the jaws of defeat. Defeat has sweared revenge so now i dont sleep at night <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Do you think this is acceptable:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fast forward 20 minutes later, and you see us getting spawn camped in Waste Handling for upwards of 5 minutes while the other team builds their entire base in our hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not how you develop a league/ladder. This does not encourage anyone to play better. This is not fun for anyone but the people abusing the losing side.
I do not know if this ever really happened but I also do not have any trouble believing that it could. Actions like these are what causes clans to break up.
I am not slandering anyone. I am stating an observation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While I admit it is a tad humilating... I don't think it's something that would cause a clan to breakup.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please note that there has been no mention of this causing clans to breakup, but only acting to discourage them from scrimming with the top clans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anything, it would want to make them get better and kick the crap outta the other clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though this may be the community some would like, it is not for me. And i suppose that is where I draw the line between enjoyable competition and cutthroat play. A competative scene where less skilled clans are humiliated in their attempts to break into the higher play, is not for me. Being spawn camped <i>ad nauseum</i> for the leisure of a team that is obviously dominating can, in no way, be considered productive to the development of a greater community/clan scene.
Scrim or not, that is the time to F4 (altho in tourney settings, I believe it requires the whole team to?). If there is no way in flying hell for you to win, surrender and be a good sport about it. Learn from the experience and move on. I dont see how this can be called humiliating when it takes 2-3 hrs to finish the last hive in ye average pub.
Im not saying it's right for them to toy with you. I know dn` has taught a few clans alot of tricks to the game. But if you want f4 or don't play them don't **** about them being better then you. And for godsakes have some evidence before you call someone a hacker.
What is wrong with giving up honourably (be it a word)? sitting there under the to-be-destroyed hive, inside a minefield with seiges going up will do you no good. If the situation is hopeless, dont waste their time, and dont let THEM waste your time. Giving up when its hopeless is common in rts matches, whats wrong with doing the same in a rts/fps game?
As for Squishy... Where did all the talk of about 'dn and hacking come from? That was kinda out of the blue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they can build 400 observatories in your hive then scan it until it crashes the server then thats your fault not theirs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Interesting. I'll assume that you're exaggerating, but the result is the same. I am not arguing against the fact that some clans are better than others. Thats the way it is. If my clan is less skilled and the opponent gets into our hive and they get in a postition were they can "build 400 observatories" its not a question of who's fault it was to let them get into the hive. Obviously its the fault of the team who is less skilled. Their skills were less refined, thus the opponent got into their hive. The real question is whether or not the obviously dominant team should build those "400 observatories" at the expense of the already blatantly conquered opposition. Is it not better to end it quick? Should the dominant team spawn camp for 5 minutes and build the entire base in the hive? Does this promote less skilled clans to become more involved in the clan scene? Or does it have a detrimental effect?
We do bizarre tactics, we actively try to extend last stands as long as possible. Sometimes we start a game specifically to tailor it towards a last stand. We hide. We build giant electric fences for defensive use, only in the most bizarre places.
Of the good few servers we've been banned from, the STD servers stick out the most. We hold the distinction of having individuals banned from both the NS servers AND the DOD servers of STD. I recall all I would ever hear from them over the voice comm was constant swearing and rampant accusations of pedophilic (and sometimes incestuous) tendencies. They were hilarious! We love STD, despite the whole being "completely banned from their servers" thing.
This is us. We'd love to meet you.
Fanny, this is about competative clans, not OMG WE'RE SO DIFFERENT AND AMAZING AND REBELLIOUS WHOO irritating hippie clans.
Fanny, this is about competative clans, not OMG WE'RE SO DIFFERENT AND AMAZING AND REBELLIOUS WHOO irritating hippie clans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, we'd LOVE to meet you, honey. Where does this clan of yours normally play?
EDIT: and if you MUST have an explanation... tell me, what makes us any different than you? Other than the fact that we don't seem to get as... irritated as some of these other "clans" do?
What makes us different? We're a competative clan playing in the CAL regular season and trying to, you know, win.
Forlorn, yes it's hip to mine the alien hive to stem skulks from spawning. IR employed this tactic bluntly against in a scrimage last night. Flash back a few weeks ago we had a situation where the other team made fun shapes on our hive floor with mines while they spun around with jet packs and hmg's refusing to end the game for ten minutes. This does not make a new clan want to get better and beat down other people, it makes them think, "Hey - these morons flayra let play with the game by themselves for a couple months are asshats, I'll go find a different game to be competitive in." Clans don't break up they realize that the upper echelon of ns is filled with smacktards, pack up their bags and go to a new hobby together. They don't care to get good, because there's nothing to feel proud of when you do get good. The prize? Congrats you're part of the elite few who totally rocks at ns, now you too can be ****.
As I said before it's hard for a good clan to see this through the eyes of a group of people just starting out, training every day, taking 0-2 loss after 0-2 loss. They seem to think that losing all the time we're discouraged by the losing, we're not. What is discouraging is people making losing not even be worth the practice. I've witnessed and partaken in competition before and I must say the NS community has a surprising lack of one key thing - sportsmanship. Go to a track meet and see if the best runners wait for slowest at the finish line and then moonwalk across it to win by a second. See if basketball teams that are winning in the last quarter decide to throw the ball at the other teams faces because they have fouls to spare. The mistake good clans make is differentiating between what they can do, and what they should do.
Personally, I never knew anything like this went on. As a member of [GoM], i've played in a lot of scrims against top clans. We've nearly always been treated with respect, both verbally and in play. There are a couple clans who have not been respectful to us, but generally we don't play scrim them. My personal favorite clans to scrim with are dn` and ir. They have always treated us respectfully, and they're fun to play with. Repeated scrims can often be boring, but I find I rather enjoy playing with these guys.
While I wish there was something I, or anyone else could say to people who endorse this kind of play to make them change their ways, I really doubt there is. These kind of people are the parasites of society, who only seek their own pleasure and ignore others. They are the people that will abandon the game when they can't easily have their way or their cheap thrills wear thin. They don't look at the long term effects on the game but rather how much fun they can have right now.
For the issues with the clan scene in general... the way I see it is, we have two groups of people. Most of the clans who are "top" right now have been around since 1.04 or earlier, or consist largely of people who have. Most of the "new" clans consist of people who started playing with 2.0. These guys just havn't had the year that we have to play the hell out of the game. They'll get better eventually, but we're not going to see them playing on our level overnight. I don't think it's something we can rush. I think things will fix themselves eventually, without any kind of plan or intervention. I don't think the clan scene would die even if all the top clans stopped playing right now.
WTH WTH